SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[I. Larkin]

Thought Mekka was better, but here smaller flip risk, so save.

Also important that it was 5 turns earlier. And it is not that bad, main axis just along main river...

Some more "problems popups"... It is "middel East conflict". Unlikely that Ottos kill Arabs, but better to find out how Pickman goes.

Another: It is Big area (8 Tiles) in our "best zone", where nobody now. About 2x4 tiles, where AI technically may settel. If it is Arabs or Babylon it is OK, but not let to others. I upgrade my turnlog a bit.

 

[Othniel]

So FP is in Uskadar?

I'll take a look at the save tonight.

 

[Othniel]

Took a look at the save. We're making good progress.

I would switch Lisbon to Knights Templar pre-build immediately, before the barracks completes. That way we should get the KT in 18 turns or possibly a little faster. We should have plenty of time to capture Colossus from French because they look very small. We'll just have to rush a couple of boats near Uskadar and transport some Knights.

Other war plans might be this:
Take Damascus from Arabs asap. I prefer taking this town over Medina because it has the Arab's horses and should be easier to take. As soon as we have Damascus, sign peace with Arabs. As soon as Ottos peace deal expires (12 turns), we take one of the two last Otto cities, and immediately gift that city to the Arabs. Then we sign peace with Ottos. As soon as we can, we then take Medina from the Arabs. That should end our dealings with those two nations. We could still tie them in later on MA/peace deals to get WH. Just don't attack them anymore.

Fine on continuing war with Babs. I'm not optimistic that we can quickly capture and hold Babylon itself. We're probably gonna need Knights first. And I'd sure like to take out Russia ASAP, they are too much in the way.

Other wars would be a surgical strike to take Paris and the Colossus, and taking out the Zulu. After that, our war plans should probably be just to expand in every direction as fast as possible. We do need to be planning ahead on where to stash the last cities for the vanquished civs.

For Edrine, and other "flippable" cities, CivAssist is reporting only very small risk factors, 0.5% at the most. So I doubt we need to worry much. I would however, advocate abandoning Edrine through settler abandonment, even if the resulting settler is Ottoman or if some whip unhappiness tranfers to Oporto. We need to fit in a couple of cities on that river since it will be a low corrupt core area. I attached a possible dotmap for that area. if this messes with the core settling scheme that Ivan had in mind, we can adapt it.

We might also think about doing a few worker joins. Gui, for one, could use a couple more pop so it could do 2-turn horses. But we still have a lot of land to improve so any worker joins need to be done with a good deal of consideration.

A couple of pretty minor things:
(1) Let's switch Faro to a barracks or just something other than a treb. It's a low corrupt city
(2) Why do we want the Iron connected near Rio? Aren't we going to do connect/disconnect?

 

[I. Larkin]

Took a look at the save.
I would switch Lisbon to Knights Templar pre-build immediately, before the barracks completes. That way we should get the KT in 18 turns or possibly a little faster. We should have plenty of time to capture Colossus from French because they look very small. We'll just have to rush a couple of boats near Uskadar and transport some Knights.

I like this idea very much, but it is very strong commitment. In my Deity experience the landing of 4 Knights on island like this results immediate smash. France had nothing to build but horses for a long time and you know what. I’d consider 4 Galleys as 50/50% chance, and 5 better, but 6 for sure. This is Demi, but still. Plan that may help (I consider it for Celts first) is to land Scout “peacefully” and when DoW Scout will pillage road IBT Alesia and Landing point. At this case Knights will be safe versus first strike and will strike first themselves. Probably the same we can do with France. Anyway landing scout there may be a good idea. But I prefer to short rush harbor now and upgrade Curragh and have Veteran’s Galleys. In worst case scenario we may switch to Sun Tzu and wait when strike force are ready. Anyway, to avoid flip risks we may have Sun Tzu prebuild and let K Templar just in turn when capture Paris.
Negative side of this plan is that GA a bit early and we will not pump settlers from Lisbon that time.
Lisbon needs MP next turn.

Other war plans might be this:
Take Damascus from Arabs asap. I prefer taking this town over Medina because it has the Arab's horses and should be easier to take. As soon as we have Damascus, sign peace with Arabs. As soon as Ottos peace deal expires (12 turns), we take one of the two last Otto cities, and immediately gift that city to the Arabs. Then we sign peace with Ottos. As soon as we can, we then take Medina from the Arabs. That should end our dealings with those two nations. We could still tie them in later on MA/peace deals to get WH. Just don't attack them anymore.

Plan looks good, but I’d delay with razing Damascus. Now it “hold the land” from other AIs. I’d prefer Medina + former “FP” City, or just Medina. What we have to do, but it is hard, not to let Ottos raze Domascus.

Fine on continuing war with Babs. I'm not optimistic that we can quickly capture and hold Babylon itself. We're probably gonna need Knights first. And I'd sure like to take out Russia ASAP, they are too much in the way.

With Knights A_Cavs are not that important, but still better to have them for free.
Obviously Horses from Moscow/Eridu region should return home to upgrade. It was my mistake / curiosity that I sent them there. With Galleys rush and Paris strike we will not have that much cash to upgrade many Knights at once. I’d prefer capture Babylon after Paris.

Other wars would be a surgical strike to take Paris and the Colossus, and taking out the Zulu. After that, our war plans should probably be just to expand in every direction as fast as possible. We do need to be planning ahead on where to stash the last cities for the vanquished civs.

I think initially prison may be “forbidden zone” in Moscow region and at America and Celts.

For Edrine, and other "flippable" cities, CivAssist is reporting only very small risk factors, 0.5% at the most. So I doubt we need to worry much. I would however, advocate abandoning Edrine through settler abandonment, even if the resulting settler is Ottoman or if some whip unhappiness tranfers to Oporto. We need to fit in a couple of cities on that river since it will be a low corrupt core area. I attached a possible dotmap for that area. if this messes with the core settling scheme that Ivan had in mind, we can adapt it.

I agree with that. I like position of all 4 red dots around Erdine. I think 2S first, Tundra second. Meanwhile we should put something in dark area near Ottos Archer to avoid AIs settlers.

We might also think about doing a few worker joins. Gui, for one, could use a couple more pop so it could do 2-turn horses. But we still have a lot of land to improve so any worker joins need to be done with a good deal of consideration

. Disagre with that. We need many tiles to improve. However, when GA will star we may reconsider.

A couple of pretty minor things:
(1) Let's switch Faro to a barracks or just something other than a treb. It's a low corrupt city

Yes, of course.

(2) Why do we want the Iron connected near Rio? Aren't we going to do connect/disconnect?

I thought we will need massive workers to improve tiles to have Wonder in Rio. If we do Wonder in Lisbon better to stop Road. I personally do not like connect disconnect trick, we gain not that much, actually. (Lanzelot somewhere wrote about it). But we will see.

 

[DWetzel]

Just doing this off turn description, but what about putting the wonder prebuild in Gui, and maybe tossing a barracks up in Lisbon and using that for units? Advantage of this is that we can use palace for prebuild and not have to worry about finishing too soon. It does put a possibly unnecessary building in Lisbon, but I think we'll be doing military units (as opposed to ships) from there anyway. It seems like our north coast (e.g. Coimbra and Emerita) can be our major shipyards.

 

[I. Larkin]

Just doing this off turn description, but what about putting the wonder prebuild in Gui, and maybe tossing a barracks up in Lisbon and using that for units? Advantage of this is that we can use palace for prebuild and not have to worry about finishing too soon.
2)It does put a possibly unnecessary building in Lisbon, but I think we'll be doing military units (as opposed to ships) from there anyway. It seems like our north coast (e.g. Coimbra and Emerita) can be our major shipyards.

It is 28 turns as earliest, but may be it is better timing. I did not calculated timing for Rio, corruptin with corthouse there will be something like 34 %, may be even longer...
So prebuild in Gui looks resonable.
2) Libon may be good Horse/Galley/settler combo. It has 7 fpt with 15 spt. Good combination.
Edit:
Just when it will be 11.35 size swich to settler, do not wait when "food box full". The best City for the ship yard is Lados, obviously. But now it is the only supplier of workers and Settlers.

 

[DWetzel]

A little slower might be better--don't want to overextend TOO much vs. France and others.

We can always speed it up (with worker adds) if need be.

 

[eldar]

I'm still here and following everything from posts, I've had very busy RL lately so not really had a chance to get an in-depth look at the saves. Things are looking clear for next week though so I should be able get my turns in when they come up.

Progress looks very good, though.

 

[I. Larkin]

Summary. Lets summarize where we are and what to do next:

Build-up.
Gia starts pre-build. Lagos – Workers, Settlers. Uskudar Harbor, Galleys (Via Archer short rush). Lisbon – combo. Rio – Corthouse, the rest Horses, Erdine: workers, settler to shift.

Settelment: Erdine zone, Othniel’s DM.

Wars:
currently all strange.
Babylon: retreat to upgrade.
Arabs: try to protect Damascus from Ottos. If ensure this – capture Medina.
Japan: do nothing, but account that they have Lighthouse.
Mongols in MA With Germany.

War preparations: have to be decided schedule for them
1) France (top priority)
2) Babylon (we are at war, bu I mean real war)
3) Osmans: sort out Middel East conflict
4) Celts: before they too strong
5) Japan: Lighthouse.

Scouting: Curraghs return home to upgrade
Horse may look corner at Russia / zulu black area.
I’d send scouts on Galleys to see land of Celts and France.

 

[Othniel]

Summary looks good.

Having Gui build the KT is ok enough with me. The slight delay for the GA should be fine, and it will give us more time to fill in the core around Uskadar/Edrine and enable those cities to benefit from the GA.

Be aware that the Zulu appear to have a city on the French island. So if we want to soften the French resistance prior to landing, how about getting an MA/peace reneg with Zulu against France? At least it might divert French units south away from our landing site.

 

[Lanzelot]

I personally do not like connect disconnect trick, we gain not that much, actually. (Lanzelot somewhere wrote about it). But we will see.

Yes, I wrote something in the COTM52 final spoiler: see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7291923#post7291923 and the following discussion. It actually gains quite a bit, because what Nikodemus says there needs to be taken into account.

After that discussion I wanted to try it out myself in order to get some experience with it. (After all, a few very good domination players, Neo666 and Yilar, think it is very powerful, and they should know...) So I tried it in COTM53. After that game my evaluation is as follows:

I think it is quite important, because it allows you to use your shields and your gold for producing units. Rushing lets you do this as well, but it is either slower or more expensive. So my advice for using it is:

1. When you are in the "build-up phase", you don't want to produce units too quickly, because you'll run into an upkeep cost problem. So in this case use the procedure outlined in my post, i.e. let the city collect shields for 3-4 turns, short-rush to temple/granary/harbor and then let it complete the knight normally. This is the cheapest way to produce a good amount of knights in medium time.
2. Then when you switch to "war mode", you want to crank out knights as fast as possible. Then you use connect/disconnect. It is a bit more expensive, but also faster!
3. We probably also need to take the government into account: in COTM53 I was a Republic. Now we are Monarchy, where our income is much lower. In COTM53 it proved to be a very powerful tool, here it may be different?!
   (I have already been thinking about the following for a while now, so let me now post the question here for all of you, because it fits into this topic: if an AI researches Republic for us, should we switch? Of course, if the game is almost over by then, it makes no sense, but if it happens at a point, where victory is still far away, it may be worth it! It will definitely allow us to produce units much faster. Upkeep should not be a problem, we'll have enough cities by then.)
4. And finally, a decisive factor is Leonardo's. If we can get it, connect/disconnect is the most powerful tool to produce huge amounts of units quickly. A town with 10spt can then build a knight every 3 turns with an extra cost of 60g (compared to 160g when using the temple short-rush strategy). If we get Invention, we should perhaps gift it to a suitable AI and hope it'll build Leonardo's for us... (In COTM53 unfortunately I had the very bad luck that the Aztecs, who were farthest away and also my only friend, build it. I should have started a prebuilt for it much earlier. It would have definitely improved my finish date by a century.

Therefore I would like to keep the option open to use connect/disconnect. So please don't road that extra iron hill. (If we keep Istanbul, the easiest way would be to disconnect the hill at Lagos and keep it disconnected, and then just open/close a single road leading to Istanbul (as I outlined earlier).

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

...how about getting an MA/peace reneg with Zulu against France? At least it might divert French units south away from our landing site.

Definitly sounds like a good tactic! BTW: shortly before we start the campaign, we should establish an embassy in Paris. That is the cheapest way to find out, how well it is defended... (That way we can also save ourselves the trouble of sending a scout over there. So we can send that scout to Japan for example.)

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: why do we have two taxmen? Set them to scientists! (I think that way we can set research down to 30% instead of 40% on the last turn of Chivalry?!)

 

[ignas]

It's good that you summarized, Ivan.

Having Gui build the KT is ok enough with me. The slight delay for the GA should be fine, and it will give us more time to fill in the core around Uskadar/Edrine and enable those cities to benefit from the GA.

I'd say go ASAP for KT if we are sure we will capture Collosus in time. Usually faster you get your GA means faster you win in these type of games. More gold and shields faster->more knights and galleys faster->fast conquest. Better to have fewer knights faster than huge amount of them later on.

When you are in the "build-up phase", you don't want to produce units too quickly, because you'll run into an upkeep cost problem. So in this case use the procedure outlined in my post, i.e. let the city collect shields for 3-4 turns, short-rush to temple/granary/harbor and then let it complete the knight normally. This is the cheapest way to produce a good amount of knights in medium time.

I think we need to get as many knights as fast as possible. Unit upkeep is 1gpt so it's not that much.
We are in Monarchy so less income than in Republic. It should be a balance between upgrade and shortrush: towns with 10 shields could use shortrush via temple, towns with 14, 18 and 24 spt could produce 5/4/3 turn knights. It's everything about money, when we will improve our economy a bit we could use upgrade heavily.

if an AI researches Republic for us, should we switch?

Republic is the best government in civ 3 that's for sure. But at this stage I guess it's not worth it: 1) 7-8 turns of lost production and income in the most important part of the game if switching in near future is not very helpful; 2) war wearriness might become a problem.

And finally, a decisive factor is Leonardo's. If we can get it, connect/disconnect is the most powerful tool to produce huge amounts of units quickly

We can get Leo's easily but Leonardo is not an option in this game I guess. It requires quite some of our resources which we don't have currently: 1)need to research up to Invention. Better invest gold to units (shortrush, upgrade); 2) needs 600 shields so we won't get it very fast. By the time we will get it we will be quite far in the conquest phase where the game gets shape so it's not a decisive factor. Also now we need to squeeze every shield we can get so 2 prebuilds (for KT and Leo's) would be too much.

 

[Othniel]

I'd say go ASAP for KT if we are sure we will capture Collosus in time. Usually faster you get your GA means faster you win in these type of games. More gold and shields faster->more knights and galleys faster->fast conquest. Better to have fewer knights faster than huge amount of them later on.

I think that we could put Lisbon on the KT at full speed and still get the Colossus in time. I would personally prefer the fast blitz toward KT, especially if there is any risk of a wonder cascade knocking it out. It just seems that the majority of the team is favoring a slower build using Gui. But we could debate it further if there is enough differing opinions...

We can get Leo's easily but Leonardo is not an option in this game I guess. It requires quite some of our resources which we don't have currently: 1)need to research up to Invention. Better invest gold to units (shortrush, upgrade); 2) needs 600 shields so we won't get it very fast. By the time we will get it we will be quite far in the conquest phase where the game gets shape so it's not a decisive factor. Also now we need to squeeze every shield we can get so 2 prebuilds (for KT and Leo's) would be too much.

I agree that Leo's is not feasible to self-build. But if we could capture it...

 

[Lanzelot]

I agree that Leo's is not feasible to self-build. But if we could capture it...

Yes, that's what I was saying, in a while one of the sci civs might come up with Invention. Buy it and gift it to a suitable AI (one that is not too far away and has some decent production). Perhaps it will build Leonardo's for us instead of units...

Regarding research: guess I was a bit tired yesterday evening, couldn't calculate straight anymore... And also CivAssit told me we have two taxmen, while now that I look at the save again to determine the optimal way, I see we have only one?!

Lanzelot

 

[I. Larkin]

I'd say go ASAP for KT if we are sure we will capture Collosus in time. Usually faster you get your GA means faster you win in these type of games. More gold and shields faster->more knights and galleys faster->fast conquest. Better to have fewer knights faster than huge amount of them later on.

Yes, indeed. After Chvalry we turn of research and focus on Upgrade. Unfoturnatly our income will let us 1 upgrade per turn. At the same time at 25 turns we should capture Colossus. There is no our ships near France, so more Gold to shortrush/ rush. Schedule, in fact very tough. Don't know if we will have time/money for anything else before France invasion. To save Knights we may consider to build 1-2 Pickmen, they cheaper, then Knights and will hold first contra -strike. I sent Galley south around, may be another may go to France North way?

I think that we could put Lisbon on the KT at full speed and still get the Colossus in time. I would personally prefer the fast blitz toward KT, especially if there is any risk of a wonder cascade knocking it out. It just seems that the majority of the team is favoring a slower build using Gui. But we could debate it further if there is enough differing opinions...

Another reason, that I'd have Lisbon "free" that better to Put Lagos for size 7+ and build Marketplace in near future. Lisbon may pump some Settlers each 6 turns. And Galleys to sail to France. (Although with all this barbarians it is too long way around...)

 

[ignas]

We should start prebuilds for knights via corthouse in Gui and Oporto. We wil have gold to upgrade 1 knight on the turn we learn Chivalry, 2-3 if we borrow some gold/sell cheap techs to backward civs. So 4-5 knights on the turn we learn Chivalry isn't that bad.
Few pikes sounds good in the initial landing in France, they will absorb first attack wave saving our expensive knights.

6 galleys with 10 knights and 2 pikes should be enough to capture Paris,also some knights/horses as reinforcement in case attack fails nearby in Mecca. Can we get these galleys before KT in Lisbon COULD finish? If so I'd say go for KT in Lisbon, faster GA will let us to get more knights/galleys faster. In GA we will produce 200-250 gpt so it's 1.5-2 horse->knight a turn.

 

[I. Larkin]

We should start prebuilds for knights via corthouse in Gui and Oporto. We wil have gold to upgrade 1 knight on the turn we learn Chivalry, 2-3 if we borrow some gold/sell cheap techs to backward civs. So 4-5 knights on the turn we learn Chivalry isn't that bad.
Few pikes sounds good in the initial landing in France, they will absorb first attack wave saving our expensive knights.

6 galleys with 10 knights and 2 pikes should be enough to capture Paris,also some knights/horses as reinforcement in case attack fails nearby in Mecca. Can we get these galleys before KT in Lisbon COULD finish? If so I'd say go for KT in Lisbon, faster GA will let us to get more knights/galleys faster. In GA we will produce 200-250 gpt so it's 1.5-2 horse->knight a turn.

We agread K Templar in Gui, isn't it? And normalyy people build Horses to upgrade, but you offer "opposite"... Suppose we do it "this way" and will have 4 knights in 7 turns. Still some time before France invasion. Will we advance to Babylon? May be build road to Moscow to go faster there?
In realty I prefer to capture Collossus just in turn when KT will be ready, to avoid surprises with flips, ets.
We may speed up process a bit if let Gui work on hills. And delay keeping production for "Palace". For settelment / Ship reason Lisbon better to leave "free". may be build Galley instead of Barracks? We may rush 1 Galley or upgrade 1 Knight per turn. And will have 14-15 turns to prepare SoD you think resonable...

 

[ignas]

We agread K Templar in Gui, isn't it?

Ok, KT in Gui it is.

And normalyy people build Horses to upgrade, but you offer "opposite"...

With our poor income it will take a while to upgrade all horses. We will have more horses than we can upgrade for a long time so why not prebuild?
OK, KT in Gui; Oporto on knight prebuild via court (will need to rush few shields as it has 9 shields in the box and 10 spt just in 2 turns); Lisbon - combo factory; Lagos currently on workers/settlers, market in near future.

Knights will have nothing to do for some time so sending them to Babylon sounds wise.