SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[ignas]

Good progress.
I'd also say use leader for FP.
Why do we need literature and libs? Libraries just waste 80 shields and aren't very beneficial in Monarchy.
We will get our GA! That's good, we need just to capture GL city and build KT. Prebuild should be in order.
Will look at save and post more comments/plans.

 

[Lanzelot]

I would say, let Arabia have Medina (or Damascus, if you think that's better). We can then later send them to a remote island, if we want to.

If the situation becomes "critical" for Russia, let them have Istanbul. We don't want that iron hill anyway, if we play disconnect-connect.

As soon as the peace deal with the Ottomans expires, take the city that's closest to us. We can then gift it to the Babs. (Don't want to have their capital close to "our" SoZ... )

How about FP 1S 1SW of NC8? If I remember correctly, that was recommended as a good location, and it seems feasible now. We even have a settler close by.

Who will be the first off-shore target? I recommend Japan, as they have the Great Lighthouse. And from Babylon the way to Japan is not far.

Regarding research: I don't think we need any libraries in this game. If all goes well, we get Mono, Feud and Engineering for free and only research Chiv and perhaps Invention. (Leonardo's will help a lot for disconnect/connect.) Then research will stop.
However, it may be different, if we really plan to go for Carracks?

If the FP will go to Russian area, can we set the Arabian cities to catapult? Probably you are right that Évora & Faro should build courts, as they will become reasonably productive. But by the time the far away Arabian towns have finished a court and barracks, the game will be over... So catapults is the best we can get from them (and sometimes a settler for filling the land).

I agree that catapults are not useful for conquering our continent, because they are too slow for our knights, but still they are very useful in this game for two reasons:

1. they can be upgraded to trebuchets...
2. and a trebuchet in a galley is as fast as a knight in a galley...

We will be invading a lot of small islands with 4-5 AI cities. We can fill a couple of galleys with trebuchets, land them next to 2-3 strongly defended cities, let them bombard, load them back on the galleys afterwards and off they go to the next island. Especially if we are meeting AIs with some pikes, this will significantly reduce our losses! I expect, taking a city that's protected by two vet pikes, will at least cost one knight on average. If we reduce the pikes to yellow before, we'll most likely have zero losses.
But that's a long-term idea.

Regards, Lanzelot.

 

[Lanzelot]

Another tip on micromanagement: make Lisbon and Gui produce 15spt soon. Otherwise we will waste a lot of shields! Lisbon only needs another mined hill, I think.
But Gui might be more difficult, after you have chopped that forest...! Food is not important for Gui, it can much more easily grow via workers from Lagos. Perhaps you need to mine the mountain now (not sure how much the corruption is eating)?! Otherwise the forest and mining the last remaining plain tile might have sufficed?

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

Another tip on micromanagement: make Lisbon and Gui produce 15spt soon. Otherwise we will waste a lot of shields! Lisbon only needs another mined hill, I think.
But Gui might be more difficult, after you have chopped that forest...! Food is not important for Gui, it can much more easily grow via workers from Lagos. Perhaps you need to mine the mountain now (not sure how much the corruption is eating)?! Otherwise the forest and mining the last remaining plain tile might have sufficed?

Lanzelot

 

[I. Larkin]

Thanks for Input everybody, and direction to Mcm. 5 spt is important as giwe us horse each 3 turns (with cash shortrush). I think there is nothing behind, but I will check. Instead of Celts we may re-consider France. Our preliminary plans to take Colossus before KT still valid. I think to build KT in NC8 instead of FP. It will take 25-30 turns.
In this time we should capture colossus, that I think realistic.
I don’t want to bound Lisbon with KT project : I want Lib as Lit available, galleys and settlers when Population rise.

After calculation I got that difference between Mekka and Uskudar is 9% for Zululand, for the rest it is the same or even better for Edrine. Unfortunately we still have no any plans for Erdine area buildup. But now there are no settlers now anyway. So I agree with nerovats better now, but not perfect location then who knows later. We may use 10 – 8 or 10 – 9 scheme (10 core ring around Palace 8 around FP) with Forbidden zone of radius 15.
This turn will trade. We may bound AIs with Peace treaty+MAs. So embassy with Persia, Germany, Sumeria and Greece may be usefull.

 

[I. Larkin]

Will look at save and post more comments/plans.

How soon? I thought to play now, or can do tomorrow.

 

[DWetzel]

Another random thought: I don't think Medieval Infantry is a bad option for us either. Given that we have so many small islands, turn 1 is land, turn 2 is attack anyway. Our movement isn't limited by our troops but by our ships. An MI and a pike may be more effective than a knight for the same total cost (except of course for unit support).

 

[ignas]

No need for trebs, they will just slow us down, we can win without them as the AI won't have many and strong (pikes at best) defenders. Having artillery on lower levels is not good.

I'd say full speed towards knights and KTemplar, from then on horse->knight upgrade. GA will help us a lot.

 

[I. Larkin]

Another random thought: I don't think Medieval Infantry is a bad option for us either. Given that we have so many small islands, turn 1 is land, turn 2 is attack anyway. Our movement isn't limited by our troops but by our ships. An MI and a pike may be more effective than a knight for the same total cost (except of course for unit support).

In GOTM (Holland, Demi) I also thought this way. And avoid Chivlary. Ignas beat me at this game for 30 turns with Knighs. Knights have much better survival rate.

 

[I. Larkin]

No need for trebs, they will just slow us down, we can win without them as the AI won't have many and strong (pikes at best) defenders. Having artillery on lower levels is not good.

And what in 15 spt Lisbon then? Galleys?

 

[Othniel]

Instead of Celts we may re-consider France. Our preliminary plans to take Colossus before KT still valid. I think to build KT in NC8 instead of FP. It will take 25-30 turns.
In this time we should capture colossus, that I think realistic.
I don’t want to bound Lisbon with KT project : I want Lib as Lit available, galleys and settlers when Population rise.

Glad we got an MGL. Definite vote here for FP. What about doing both FP and KT in NC8? Would that get KT too fast before we capture Colossus? If we can get a fast FP in NC8, I would prefer that above waiting for Mecca area. I suppose it also depends on where our MGL is located right now on the map, if it's closer to Mecca or NC8.

I like the idea of a slower burn on KT unless there is a wonder cascade risk. The SCI civs we gift up might go for Chiv fast as the AI likes that tech. Anyhow, this all seems like a timing deal: Get Colossus asap and immediately after build KT. Should be interesting trying to get the timing right.

So are we going for Lit or not? I also feel it's a waste unless we go for Astronomy.

 

[Othniel]

And what in 15 spt Lisbon then? Galleys?

Barracks and 2 turn horses? It might still be a bit early to get galleys. We might also want to cash-rush most of our navy in corrupt areas once we need it. Build Knights in the core, use the road system to get near the target, and have galleys waiting for just short jaunts.

 

[DWetzel]

For that matter we can probably get it to 20 spt (there are two hills around, no? And I think there's a mined BG that isn't being used because 12 and 14 are no different at the moment). That's 2-turn MI, should we choose.

 

[eldar]

Vote for FP also, but I've had busy RL the last few days and it's busy tomorrow and Friday too so I won't be able to look properly until the w/e at the earliest.

Knights will be a better bet for winning, Med Inf+Pikes are not very efficient.

 

[ignas]

So are we going for Lit or not? I also feel it's a waste unless we go for Astronomy.

I don't see why should we research Astronomy ourselves.

Team Klarius has got some culture, definitely they are in Republic and built somne libs to get Chivalry or maybe MT faster.

Our priority should be getting some towns to 18spt or 24spt. These towns could produce 4 or 3 turn knights while other not that productive towns build horsemen (we won't have very high income in Monarchy so need some shield potential).

In GOTM (Holland, Demi) I also thought this way. And avoid Chivlary. Ignas beat me at this game for 30 turns with Knighs. Knights have much better survival rate.

I remember that game, similar to this one in geography. It was large map and very tedious ship chaining, horse->knight upgrade and no research after Chivalry using all funds for upgrades, killing hundreds of units (though in our game it won't happen as each AI will have just few towns).

Quote:
Will look at save and post more comments/plans.

How soon? I thought to play now, or can do tomorrow.

Play when you can Ivan, I won't be able to look at save for like ~8 hours.

 

[Othniel]

I don't see why should we research Astronomy ourselves.

Only reasons to self-learn Astronomy would be if Carracks extra moves/carry capacity would help us. Armies might be more valuable with them in play. But probably not worth self-research. Ship-chaining with galleys works fine. Of course with the fragmented AI civs, it will be a while before they get Astro for us.

 

[ignas]

Not worth I guess, we could transport some 1 unit armies with galleys on to bigger islands and fill them there.
Looks like we are doing not that bad judging from progress graph..

 

[I. Larkin]

File on server. D_Wetzel up.
6 850*BC (Continue) Found Rio. Rush FP Horses goes south, part to Arabs area. Horse retreat from BM near Opporto. MkM with D_W recommendation short rush Horses (2 turns each). Make Embassy in Persipolis. They at war with Japan and knows Korea and Babylon. Embassy in Berlin. They know Greek, Zulu and other neighbors. Russia, somehow don’t know Ottos. Trade Currency to Persia, they got Mono. Trade stuff to Germany and bound them to Mongol with Peace treaty. They got Engineering. Gift to Russia. Engineering as well. Gift to Ottos. They remain “cautions” no matter what. They got Feudalism. But, of course don’t want to give us for Monarchy. Got Mono from Persia for Monarchy and MA vs Japan. Got Engineering from Russia for Monarchy. Only now Otto give Feo for all our Techs. OK, hopefully you will not distribute it quick. Set Chivalry at max. (13). Send Scout far NE, Empty Galley to Celts. (Just have a look).

IBT Ottos Pick and Spear go to Damascus. Babylon and Russia fight near Novgorod 1:1 .

7 825*BC Send workers to Rio. Horses go South, part to Arabs area. Fight near Mekka. MkM Lagos/Lisbon. (With mistakes, but well)… Lisbon bay do 10 fpt… Shortrush stuff.

IBT Ottos Pick and Spear go to Damascus. Babylon and Russia fight near Novgorod 2:1. BM retreat. Babylons found Eridu at Peterburg area.

8 800*BC Send workers to Rio. Horses goes South, part to Arabs area. Aproach Uruk, Approach Mekka. Asseble horses near Eridu. Put Lisbon to settler.
IBT Ottos Pick and Spear go to Damascus. Babylon and Russia fight near Novgorod. (Presumably). BM go out of Uruk?

9 775*BC Send workers to Rio. Horses go to Eridu. One to Arabs area. Capture Mekka. Destroy Uruk. Horse promoted.
IBT Ottos Pick and Spear go to Damascus. Babylon returns from Novgorod. It was very massive running around Eridu, swords, Workers A_Cav… I got tierd and did not trase out what have happened. Elite Horse ran away from BM. All AIs settlers move to Uruk area. But it is far away, you know. Russia use our roads for that (grr…).

10 750*BC Chivary at 7! Send workers to Rio. Horse come to hill and see Settler ACav, Spear Trio. E horses kill swordsman. ACav behind… May be vet will cover? Or we may loose both? Kill BM in Uruk area, (now clean…).
Really Horses exercise near Eridu was waste. So uncertain about rest. Russia defenetly save, but we may loose WH.

Attached settelment zone with two cores (blue) and forbiden zone (yellow). We may have (if ICS) 24-27 Cities inside. First better settle in FP blue, OK within Black, and, if neccessary inside red (still productive, may be.) Absolutly forbiden to settle area IBT red and yellow! Settelment there will increas corruption in FP core. Outside yellow is OK for specialists farm. We need cover with Units and scout "free area, if we plan to settle there.

Problem with Edrine location. It is key point and if flip will be uncomfortable. If we rush settler now, (and strave, abonded), I am affraid it will be Osman settler. Also oppression from Edrine will go to Opporto. "(False oppression bug)". May be build Temple in Opporto? Or some other ideas?

We should decide our war plans. Chivlry at 7 and KTemplar may be done soon. What do you think about idea to switch Lisbon to prebuild? It is 22 turns (or may be faster), I think if we rush some galleys in Uskudar we may take French Colosuses before 22 turns with Knights.
I think better continue war with Babylons (slow) It still give us WH and sooner we get SoZ, the better.
But we make break peace and trash reputation when ready. It is not that neccessary ATM.

 

[DWetzel]

I'll take a look at the save either over lunch or this evening.

Would the red/yellow area be suitable jail for our enemies? A little too central for taste, but there is some nice desert there...

 

[nerovats]

Thought Mekka was better, but here smaller flip risk, so save.