SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[Lanzelot]

Hmm, our army is not that strong at the moment, and I expect some losses at Istanbul. Finishing Ottomania and Arabia and then coming back home and getting into good positions for Russia, might be enough to do for the next 15-20 turns.
Perhaps we can setup a RoP with Russia, that will expire the same turn as our peace with Russia?

In my opinion, if we do too much fighting now, we will certainly loose a lot of horses. Better just "sit and wait" after Arabia, and when we have knights, the war will be much quicker and less painful.

 

[I. Larkin]

Finishing Ottomania and Arabia and then coming back home and getting into good positions for Russia, might be enough to do for the next 15-20 turns.
Perhaps we can setup a RoP with Russia, that will expire the same turn as our peace with Russia?

Well, may be a "plan". Question is: wich City left to Arabia? or get 10 turns Penalty?
Why nobody research Literature for us??

 

[I. Larkin]

Since Real Decision have to be taken next turn (975) I played 1 turn to see if anyting happend IBT. Nothing really, only Sumeria got ToA. (So it is something...) Pyramids, ToA.
Nobody make new techs, no treaties...
Capture Istambul with resonoble losses (Horse, reg sword, Vet Sword). Better make peace next turn as Arabia may be close to Uskudar.
Russia ready to renegotiate peace, Babylon don't give any City or Construction for Peace. But agree to give Construction for Currency + some gold (less then 100).
My plan was take Akkad and Urik, but I observed Babs Pickman approching Akkad. It will be in next turn.

 

[DWetzel]

Babs don't have Currency but have a pike? Or do you mean a spear?

 

[eldar]

All the AIs started with bonus Pikemen, that'll be one of them. Though in my experience of GOTMs where AIs started with bonus defensive units, they usually stayed at home.

 

[I. Larkin]

Babs don't have Currency but have a pike? Or do you mean a spear?

Yes, bonus Pick. But they often go with settlers. But it is first time I see bonus Pick alone. So suggestions about wars?

 

[Othniel]

So suggestions about wars?

hmm...

First, a couple of general comments. I haven't had a chance to see the save, hopefully that will happen tonight, but it sounds like we are still in good position. Ottos sound like they are about finished.

I would build barracks in our newest cities, not cats, because we expect to have a fast-moving knight army in the near-term. If corruption for a new city starts too high--like 50%--especially since we don't have an FP yet, we could build a courthouse as the first build.

I'm a little uncomfortable with building markets in Lagos, and to a lesser degree, in Lisbon. I expect that we will continue to have Lagos build workers for a while and the market won't get much use. I would make the same argument about Lisbon, but we have decided to let it grow...That does beg the question as to where we will produce our next settlers from. I am assuming we'll need some settlers soon. I'm also a little uncomfortable with cash-rushing markets, but that might just be personal preference. It seems like we would be better off rushing horses with our cash, and also when we rush a building, it means there are a lot of turns before it starts to pay itself back unless we really need the lux happy bonus. Anyhow, enough said on the market thing. What's done is done and building markets is not a bad thing.

If we want to do the SCI civ gifting now, I won't object. I'm not sure how much value we'll get from Monarchy, but Lanzelot makes a good point that right now is Monarchy's peak value.

Regarding wars, it sounds like we have most of our forces committed up north in Otto-land. So it makes sense to my mind to gift the Arabs a former Otto city, preferably a tundra one, and then attack the main Arab cities. Take them out and then re-evaluate.

Regarding Russia, I'm initially leaning toward just canceling all our deals with them. They are still at war with the Babs even without an MA with us. If we just cancel our deals, we're not tied to a 20-turn peace deal and can attack when we want. More WH sounds like it won't do us tons of good right now anyway.

 

[Othniel]

I took a quick glance at the progress page. Pretty interesting results. Team klarius has a ton more culture than us, starting with a boost around 1250BC. The only thing I can think of is that they went for Lit and built a ton of Libraries. A wonder(s) seems a little more unlikely. But the interesting thing is that we are a bit ahead of them in territory and they have played 10 more tuns than us. So preliminarily it looks like they have gone for infrastructure while we have gone for military units and conquest...

 

[I. Larkin]

If we just cancel our deals, we're not tied to a 20-turn peace deal and can attack when we want. More WH sounds like it won't do us tons of good right now anyway.

Unfortunatly not. We still will have 20 turn peace treaty. But I think it is OK. Our SoD in East exausted, no military in the centre. And we still did not took Akkad to start FP in this area.
Monarchy will not dissapear "at once" while Sci Cive don't know each others it will be "quasi monopoly". Only Babylon "in very good position", unfortunately. They know Korea, Persia, Russia and Ottomans. Because of that I'd continue war with Babs. I only hesitate with MA or not.

I'm a little uncomfortable with building markets in Lagos, and to a lesser degree, in Lisbon. I expect that we will continue to have Lagos build workers for a while and the market won't get much use. I would make the same argument about Lisbon, but we have decided to let it grow...That does beg the question as to where we will produce our next settlers from

Agree with that but settler from big City also settler. But Lagos shuld return to Settler/worker buisiness. At the same time I don't know, where next settler should go? Replace Erdine? Or what?

 

[Othniel]

Unfortunatly not. We still will have 20 turn peace treaty.

Hang on. Really? I thought we did a 20 turn MA/Peace combo deal with them. So if we go into active deal menu, manually cancel the MA when there is 0 turns left on the treaty, we should be just left with a peace deal. My understanding was this "new" peace deal is not a 20 turn, can't-break-or-you-lose-rep kind of a deal, but rather one we can break with no penalty.

 

[I. Larkin]

Hang on. Really? I thought we did a 20 turn MA/Peace combo deal with them. So if we go into active deal menu, manually cancel the MA when there is 0 turns left on the treaty, we should be just left with a peace deal. My understanding was this "new" peace deal is not a 20 turn, can't-break-or-you-lose-rep kind of a deal, but rather one we can break with no penalty.

Really. Just did it. When Manualy clic the MA+Peace treaty deal pop up "Are you sure want to renegotiate..." appear. After that, no matter what MA or not active 20 turn peace deal appears. To breake it will hit reputation. But I decided that "russian are our friens".
We still at war both but without MA.
Edit: I played 4.5 turns and really want all discuss what to do.
File attached here indicating that I will continue.
1) We found all AIs. All accessible with galleys.
2) we and Japan are "M. A". The Currency is not "monopoly anymore"
3) We got MGL in Arabia.

0 1000*BC Change production Lisbon->Harbor, Lagos->Settler. We need some population pump. Send Horse and Archer to Akkad area.
IBT Arab spear approach our land. Babylon BM fonling around Faro. Zulu warrior near Erdine border. Sumeria got ToA.
1 975*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area.
Capture Istambul. Loose vet and reg sword, 1 Horse. Archer promoted. Kill BM with 4/5 sword. Move to Mounting near Akkad and see reg Bonus Pikman. Otto agree to give City and all 52 gold. Talk to Russian. Exclude MA from Peace treaty but now we stiil in “deal”. Make RoP with Russia as separate deal. It will expire the same time. Bring all I can to Akkad hills. Shortrush whatever possible. Harbor -> galley. Micmn Lisbon Lagos. Lagos need 6+4 fpt to grow, but Lisbon need asmuch as possible.
IBT Babylon Spear go to Lieria, Pickman to Akkad.
2 950*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area. Attack Akkad. 1 horse died 2 redlined but no Pickman any more. Only Redlined spear in Akkad.
Make peace with Otto. Got Uskudar, Worker and 16 gold. He still at war with Arabs and has redlined archer near Uskudar. Bring rest of SoD to Uskudar.
IBT Arab spear approach our land. Babylon Spear fonling around Lieria
3 925*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area. Rush catapult in Faro. Destroy Akkad. (pop up spear as usual)

IBT Arab spear come to our land. Babylon Spear fonling around Lieria. Babs destroy St. Peterburg.

4 900*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area. Kill Arab Spear near Faro. Kill archer near Uskudar and get promoted.

IBT Arab spear approach our land. Babylon Spear went in of Lieria area. Russia moves w/settler pair. Arab archer killed our Elite horse.
5 875*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area. Settler comes to position NC8. Got Construction from Russia for CoL, MM and 43 gold. Keep currency as “monopoly”. We are Medieval. Sell construction to Persia. Move swords toward Mekka. Move horses to Moscow area. Lisbon -> Scout. It will sail to Celts to see land for invasion. Hopefully it will not boot out. Then it may pillage in turn of declare.

IBT Arab and Ottos archers fight near Uskudar (2:1). Otto send Bonus Pickman to support. Babylon Spear went out of Lieria area. Elite spear attack our Elite horse and die. Persia starts GW.
6 850*BC Regroop troops. Part goes East part to Akkad area. Elite Archer got MGL. Japan has all non optional AA techs. Monarchy still monopoly.

 

[nerovats]

Great an MGL. First idea would be FP as we won't be able to ship an army for a long time. Will take a look at save when I get home.

 

[I. Larkin]

I also think FP better. But where?? In Uskudar? It is so many tundra around and Uskudar itself not a greate City...

 

[nerovats]

Will have to look at save. Are we gona gift remote scientific civs? Monarchy might be enough with some gold which we mostly get back. Or go lit ourselves and save gold but more risky. Could use lit, but in my experience AI will almost always neglect it, except when you start on it yourselve.
Will look at save in about 3 hours or so.

 

[Lanzelot]

I hope I can take a look at the save tonight. Here just a few "strategic" comments:

• Yes, I think the leader should build the FP as soon as possible. Obviously the Novgorod/Moscow area won't be available for a long time, so take a different spot. My suggestion would be Faro or the Edrine-Replacement. But I don't understand much of that matter, so any place you think is best, is ok with me.
• So if I understood correctly, you are still at war with Babylon and did not buy Construction yet? But please don't wait too long. I don't feel comfortable until we have at least Mono & Feud under our belt (and possibly even Engineering for faster movement and the possibility to aim at Leonardo's as a long-term goal). Just gift the isolated sci civs first, and perhaps we are lucky and don't need to gift Babs & Russia. All our problems are over, once we have Knights! And we should try to get them within the next 20 turns, because by then we should probably already have 15 horses ready. (Gui alone can make 10 horses in 20 turns.) The war with Babylon will not lead anywhere at the moment, and the sooner you make peace with them, the sooner the 20 turns have expired and we can attack again!
• I think the marketplaces will soon make profit. Gui can make 30+ gpt. Without the market it would make 20gpt. So after 24 turns that market is making profit! Lisbon should be even better. Just let it grow to 12 and make an occasional settler, when the foodbox is full. (That way it'll regrow to size 11 immediately and doesn't loose much production.) I admit, the markets at Lagos and Oporto will take longer, before they make profit, but I still think, the earlier they are built, the better, even if they are making only an additional 5gpt at the moment. If we join workers to Oporto, it'll be profitable soon. You'll see: once we are ready to upgrade horses, we'll be swimming in money... (And get money out of the sci civs, whenever you can!)
• Use Lagos for pumping out workers for a while. We will only need very few settlers for a long time. And even later, when we start filling our continent, it may be an option to just rush a couple of settlers in the outer remote towns, where they are needed.

PS: just saw your turn log now. Great, we are midieval! Please gift the isolated sci civs and see, whether we are lucky! If we start now, we can perhaps get Chivalry in ~30 turns and still earn enough money for the upgrade??!!

 

[DWetzel]

Will take a look more or less soonish--MGL is a good bit of news. I am personally inclined to make an army (empty) and go for more, but FP is very tempting.

Would it work to put FP in Oporto and prepare for a palace jump elsewhere later? (Forgive me if that has been covered by Ivan's pretty pictures ) Or is that a stupid idea?

Agree with gifting the sci civs up, I think. If we can get Chivalry post-haste that may change the determination of what to do with the leader.

 

[nerovats]

We can take Mekka in 5 turns (maybe sooner if current units near Uskudar is enough), that should be a good location with 5 ivory. Will need a duct, but is good location. Second city would be NC8, less commerce but more shields. But will be quite productive too with FP in Mekka. Easiest other target would be Damascus but maybe we should take Medina. It won't get razed, and saves a settler.

We're already average or strong compared to all others on our continent. So this continent should be under control in 20-30 turns or so. Upgrade last warriors, try to get them promoted on wounde units. After Arabia we can fully concentrate on Babylon, the Russia and Zulu.

I'd gift remote ai, then see what we get, if we can go straight for knights do so, otherwise i'd go lit, get 2-3 libs to aid research. Then we'll earn those turns back.

Why keep scout, it costs 2gpt. Disband in Coimbra, Lisbon doesn't need shields, it can get some from Gui. Oporto can grow faster. I'd focus on horses now, no galley's. We need them later, could start on them during Zulu war. A court in Evora? Can we spare a unit for Edrine?

 

[I. Larkin]

Why keep scout, it costs 2gpt. Disband in Coimbra, Lisbon doesn't need shields,

Ha ha. I build it last turn to scout Celts.

Would it work to put FP in Oporto and prepare for a palace jump elsewhere later? (Forgive me if that has been covered by Ivan's pretty pictures ) Or is that a stupid idea?

Yes, it is. FP work in the way that it pull a bit nose from Core... also "theory" says that "the more distance IBT Palce and FP the bigger effect of FP. it cant extended to infinity, but up to 35-40 still work. Diameter of our island is just 17, so the longer the better. Sure, nose should go to good land.
On the picture I conssider special FP City. But it will take very long time. In first approximation Mekka OK, but it is a risk that it flip. Or we take 10 turn penalty and kill Arabs?
Another (my) stupid idea:

Move settler NC8 behind Moscow and build FP there

But it is really stupid. We are going to take Colossus? So to have something strong nearby will be really good. If I trade now to Chivlry can come in 16 turns. With FP even earlier. We may start Templar "now" in NC8 and if manage to keep Monoply can get it soon.

The war with Babylon will not lead anywhere at the moment, and the sooner you make peace with them, the sooner the 20 turns have expired and we can attack again!

First we have to sort out Uruk. Second our humanitarian aid to help Russian. Petersburg gone...
So Arabs? Will they be alive at our game?

 

[nerovats]

I think we should try to keep everyone alive, 10 turns is a big penalty.
I also think FP soon but less optimal is better then long wait. I'd say Mekka or NC8, both good locations and will get FP in just a few turns. Prebuild for Knight Templar is good idea. They are strong units, and wonder will last. Together with AC we get lot of units for free.
Maybe we just take Mekka, with 2 cities Arabs will be crippeld anyway. Then focus on Babylon.

 

[DWetzel]

Couple of minor thoughts:

There's a teeny bit of MMing to do at Coimbra/Emerita. (I tend to notice these things.) Take the mined non-BG away from Emerita and have it work the lake instead; have Coimbra work that tile instead of the roaded, no-shields grassland. Nets us a commerce in Emerita and a shield in Coimbra (which gets that town to 5 spt).

I think that rather than having the scout visit the Celts (otherwise a nice idea), I'd rather first know just how much land we have to work with up in our tundra-jail. Can we set aside enough cities up there to keep basically everyone on our island alive in that area? Zulus seem to have a city off-island (north of Hamburg), so they will be safe enough.


I think FP is the best idea, after some minor reflection. Don't know if it's better to just take Mecca, or raze + replace. That would eliminate whatever flip risk there was, but obviously costs a settler. We could rush a settler from somewhere (or just take the one from Lagos) to do that.

I like the idea of the KT build--though I had the time for Chivalry at 13 turns, not 16--but that was at max science.


We can get Lit in 4 at maximum science...that seems AWFULLY tempting to me. But I think that decision depends on how far we need to research. For culture we may as well use temples. If we're trying to win with knights and AC and crusaders (which I think should be very doable), then Literature seems pointless.