SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Sun Tzu Wu · Sep 6, 2011

mabraham said:
Yes. We've had a number of test games reporting fast GLH (early to mid T70s) in the stone city.

I assume these same test games completed The Great Wall in t51 using up three forests as well. Also, obviously test games will have to remove forests that spontaneously grew.

In any case, thanks for the reassuring words. I'd rather risk being thought a fool than not mention my concerns and end up one forest too short. I'm really glad there are no events, because the "Forest fire event" can really screw up chopping great wonders when it is one of your pre-chopped forests that burns down, because you don't have enough wealth to re-plant it.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · Sep 6, 2011

PPP for Turn 40-Turn 51:

Spoiler :

Should I hug the northern part or southern part of the map center as I explore west with Woodsman I Burke?

I figure the Eastern witches can have a trade route fogbusted later with a scouting workboat. Such a scouted path won't mean much until open borders/writing anyway.

Kaitzilla · Sep 6, 2011

T38 Judaism is one of the two things I consider warning signals on Great Wall construction times. Stonehenge is the other. Hopefully T51 will be fast enough against 8 paired AI.

Here are some of the screenshots I took just now.

Interesting info screens @T40:

Spoiler :

bcool · Sep 6, 2011

Feedback on PPP

Tech Plan?
You didn't mention your intended tech after masonry. There is some debate about that at the moment, but I was wondering which side sailing 1st or pottery 1st you supported.

warrior moves?
I posted a suggested warrior placement that can prevent barbarians from spawning in awkward places.

I'm suggesting Columbus move to the hill 1S of the wheat, and then move to the wheat if it is safe. Waiting on the wheat prevents barbarians from spawning N of the lake and prevents barbarians cities from appearing. If a barbarian does move close Columbus can retreat to the forest W of the deer forest and get the same odds as full fortification on the hill.

I'm also suggesting Warrior 3 and Amundsen move further out to prevent barbarians from spawning and reduce the chances of barbarian cities from spawning as well.

The details are in the attached screenshot
Burke
I'm okay with Burke hugging the southern edge of the land bridge. shifting to the northern edge if safer. I'm unclear on what blocks trade routes on the northern edge. Do we need clear coast in all adjacent tiles or will coastal tiles with diagonal connections still let trade routes form?

On T51, I think it is safe to chop with the 3 workers, I rather chop out the great wall on your turn set (assuming it wasn't just built). Not sure why you said fortify with the workers on T51.

Kaitzilla · Sep 6, 2011

Ok, fixed the tech order. I favor sailing first. The Great Lighthouse earlier seems better than earlier granaries during a settler/worker phase.

I will change my warrior plan to match your picture. That is better placement.

I'm not sure if diagonal defogged tiles will form a trade router later. We could have Burke defog every coastal tile until we find an eastern witches city or northern AI city, but that would require moving in a non-westerly direction if we are on a hub/wheel map. By not going west right away, we might miss the opportunity to meet other AI earlier.

Whatever we decide to do with Burke, we must be careful with him, as a 2nd scout will not be coming down the spoke until gems city/Washington can make another.

frogdude · Sep 6, 2011

Kaitzilla said:
PPP for Turn 40-Turn 51:

Spoiler :

Washington (City) -

Finish Settler T40
Revolt to Slavery T41
Build Worker T42-T45
Build Settler T46-T49
Whip Settler Complete T50, @60/100, 20 overflow, 10 organic /w cow+sheep
Build Worker T51-T53

Stone City (City) -

Build Workboat T43-T47
Build Great Wall T48-T51

Eiffel (Worker) -

Chop forest for Washington T40
Move 2 tiles north to forest T41
Chop forest for Stone City T42-T44
Move to forest 1N of Stone City T45
Prechop forest for Stone City T46-T47
Build Stone Quarry T48-T49
Move to forest 1N of Stone City T50
Fortify T51

Fritz (Worker) -

Build road on grass hill T40-T41
Build road 1S of Stone City T42-T43
Move to forest 1NE of Stone City T44
Prechop forest for Stone City T45-T46
Build road on Stone T47
Build Stone Quarry T48-T49
Move to Forest 1NE of Stone City T50
Fortify T51

Karl (Worker produced in Washington) -

Move to roaded grass hill T46
Build road on Stone T47
Build Stone Quarry T48-T49
Prechop forest on grass hill T50
Fortify T51

New Settler -

Move 1NW of Washington T51

Burke - Keep exploring west using forests
Columbus - Fortify hill 1S of what for 3rd city
Amundsen - Guard stone city, fogbust on hill near elephant later
Malcolm (new warrior) - Move 1E to guard 2nd city spot, fogbust up north later

Stopping Points -

Meet a new AI
Masonry won't finish for some reason on T47
Barbs throw a fit
Burke gets in danger
Great Wall is completed by AI

Should I hug the northern part or southern part of the map center as I explore west with Woodsman I Burke?

I figure the Eastern witches can have a trade route fogbusted later with a scouting workboat. Such a scouted path won't mean much until open borders/writing anyway.

PPP looks good to me. :king:

Don't forget to assign the shared forests to StoneCity. I've stuffed up many a test run that way :sad:

If Amundsen doesn't run into any trouble (I presume he'll be doing his guarding of the stone city initial from the gold hill), Malcolm can potentially duck inside our borders for a bit and head westward. Doing this while the settler is in transit can save us a dollar of unit upkeep.
For the same unit upkeep reason, the settler shouldn't go via the oasis, but instead via either of the 'shared forests'.
Once the city is built, Amundsen can head to the hill SW of silver, and Malcolm can park himself on the hill 2SW of Ivory. Once in those positions, they prevent barbarian spawn from everything bar the far NW of the continent. We need another unit for complete coverage, but it will be irrelevant anyway as we'll have the Great Wall soon!
Still, keeping barbarian numbers down will avoid unfortunate settler incidents or inconvenient barbarian cities that break trade routes.

You'll also need to research a new tech after masonry. Sailing is current frontrunner, but testing is ongoing to see if Pottery can show sufficient gains.

Kaitzilla · Sep 6, 2011

~~How for sure is it that Amundsen can prevent barb spawning from gold hill?~~
Nevermind, Fritz will get a good look before the settler walks onto the Stone City Spot.
There doesn't appear to be any unit maintenance costs right now.

Malcolm still has a movement point on T40 and can be on the Sheep tile on T42 when the settler steps outside our borders possibly incurring maintenance costs.
He can move to the tile 1W of flood plains by T45.

Amundsen could be up on his hill by T43.

Columbus still has a movement point on T40 and can be on the wheat by T44.

bcool · Sep 6, 2011

For the same unit upkeep reason, the settler shouldn't go via the oasis, but instead via either of the 'shared forests'.
Once the city is built, Amundsen can head to the hill SW of silver, and Malcolm can park himself on the hill 2SW of Ivory. Once in those positions, they prevent barbarian spawn from everything bar the far NW of the continent. We need another unit for complete coverage, but it will be irrelevant anyway as we'll have the Great Wall soon!
Still, keeping barbarian numbers down will avoid unfortunate settler incidents or inconvenient barbarian cities that break trade routes.

maintaince point is good for settler movement.
frogdude's placement for Amundsen and Malcolm is better once the stone city is settled.
We still want to prevent barbarians from spawning after the great wall since we need to venture into the fog to settle more cities. Also I think we want to prevent barbarian cities from popping up to the best of our ability. With the Great Lighthouse and no easy way to take out barbarian cities I think we would rather settle our own cities.

Kaitzilla · Sep 6, 2011

bcool said:
Feedback on PPP

On T51, I think it is safe to chop with the 3 workers, I rather chop out the great wall on your turn set (assuming it wasn't just built). Not sure why you said fortify with the workers on T51.

I think someone mentioned earlier not to chop the 3 forests and to let the next player do it, but I am fine doing it either way.

frogdude · Sep 7, 2011

bcool said:
maintaince point is good for settler movement.
frogdude's placement for Amundsen and Malcolm is better once the stone city is settled.
We still want to prevent barbarians from spawning after the great wall since we need to venture into the fog to settle more cities. Also I think we want to prevent barbarian cities from popping up to the best of our ability. With the Great Lighthouse and no easy way to take out barbarian cities I think we would rather settle our own cities.

I think our limit for free maintenance is 4 or 5. I'm at work at the moment so can't check.

There is a choice of when to switch to slavery. The turn where the settler moves from our borders to the settling site is the one where we will have the most units outside our borders. If not careful, we will have Amundsen, Burke, Columbus, Malcolm, settler and worker all outside the borders. This is the turn where the slavery switch should happen to save us the maintenance.
Saving costs by introducing Anarchy

If we do end up with maintenance costs for a turn, then use that turn to run 0% science as you'll have to for a turn during your turnset.

Longer term, I don't think we should move Columbus north to help with the fogbusting. Although another unit up there would be handy to fogbust a couple of squares near the dye, we need a unit in place to handle anything that comes out of the spoke. I've had some test games where units have come at me from that angle and it can get dicey.

I vote you may as well chop the forests while you're in control. It'll help make sure we didn't miscalculate the Wall! Besides, you'll have done all the hard work, I wouldn't want to steal your glory for the finish.

bcool · Sep 7, 2011

Longer term, I don't think we should move Columbus north to help with the fogbusting. Although another unit up there would be handy to fogbust a couple of squares near the dye, we need a unit in place to handle anything that comes out of the spoke. I've had some test games where units have come at me from that angle and it can get dicey.

by the time I suggest Columbus would move north we would have the Great Wall...

mabraham · Sep 7, 2011

Comments in blue

PPP for Turn 40-Turn 51:

Spoiler :

mabraham · Sep 7, 2011

Kaitzilla said:
I think someone mentioned earlier not to chop the 3 forests and to let the next player do it, but I am fine doing it either way.

STW did suggest that, but I see no value in it. Anything that would change our minds is already a stopping criterion (or should be)

frogdude · Sep 7, 2011

bcool said:
by the time I suggest Columbus would move north we would have the Great Wall...

An excellent point. I withdraw my objection then.
However we will probably want an archer or some other unit to clear the way down the spoke when we want to start settling that way.

mabraham · Sep 7, 2011

mabraham said:
If the delay on GLH induced by teching pottery before sailing is only on the order of 5 turns, and we're still ahead of the general envelope suggested by WW's stats in #571, then I expect the return from earlier granaries in the capital and gems city is large enough to warrant the increased risk incurred by delaying GLH (and the slower arrival of 6-8 1 ).

bcool said:
I would rather go with sailing first and get the GLH ~4 turns earlier.

Test game comparison might be in order, but I thought my T74 save game with the great lighthouse with sailing was pretty good. How much better would it look with earlier pottery? I can't imagine it would be that much better. But prove me wrong.

Well, I can go pottery then sailing and still get GLH in stone city on T74 with only two workers active on stone city after the GW chopping (so gems are maximally fast). I can even get granary plus lighthouse plus GLH in stone city on T75 (~~sorry no saved game available~~ edit I found the saved game - maybe this needed 3 workers on stone city, I don't recall). I can't find any test game report with both GW and GLH in stone city that has a faster GLH time. I haven't analysed whether the earlier granaries on the other two cities have shown a benefit yet. bc's point that the gems city can build a useful workboat for a southern city (or scouting or both) if we go sailing first is a sound one.

Sun Tzu Wu said:
I agree with bcool: We must go with Sailing -> Pottery to ensure we get Lighthouse -> The Great Lighthouse before any AI does. We have already delayed Sailing to complete The Wheel -> Masonry, so us not delay it further with Pottery.

If its possible to squeeze in Pottery without delaying The Great Lighthouse then Pottery -> Sailing would be viable, but I seriously doubt that is possible.

Doubt no longer.

bcool said:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10852055&postcount=677
Persumably we should be able to shave a turn or more off of the T74 time for the GLH with access to the wet rice in the stone/gold/crab/rice city.

I tried this with sailing first, and still got GLH T74. Maybe there's a turn of improvement available.

Kaitzilla · Sep 7, 2011

Ok, updated plan with Mabraham's suggestions.

I also tweaked the warrior moves, revolt turn to T42, and will chop forests on T51.

Also, what is the benefit for binary research on T43 and T48 again? I'm used to doing it when a beaker modifier like library or academy is coming online soon, but not at the beginning of the game.

I'll do it anyway since it won't hurt nothing, but I'd like to know for future games.

mabraham · Sep 7, 2011

Kaitzilla said:
Also, what is the benefit for binary research on T43 and T48 again? I'm used to doing it when a beaker modifier like library or academy is coming online soon, but not at the beginning of the game.

I'll do it anyway since it won't hurt nothing, but I'd like to know for future games.

You get a free beaker at 0% science. You also avoid losses from rounding errors from the slider. Very occasionally useful. You also get the benefit of banking gold for a turn before committing beakers. In our case, a mega-early AI GLH would allow us not to commit as many beakers to Sailing - wildly unlikely, however.

mabraham · Sep 7, 2011

Kaitzilla said:
Should I hug the northern part or southern part of the map center as I explore west with Woodsman I Burke?

Northern, I think. We are confident of eventual southern trade routes from a border pop across the ocean. We do not know about trade route possibilities in the western direction.

Kaitzilla said:
I figure the Eastern witches can have a trade route fogbusted later with a scouting workboat. Such a scouted path won't mean much until open borders/writing anyway.

Religions can spread if trade routes are possible, but tech is lacking for actual OB. We desperately want border pops, so we do care a little bit.

shulec · Sep 7, 2011

I don't have anything else to add. I favor Sailing before pottery unless someone can show that pottery doesn't slow the GLH.

Walter_Wolf · Sep 7, 2011

I agree with the PPP

may the force be with you Kaitzilla

I've been checking the screenshots again, and (probably) found more indications of land to the south.

Spoiler :

Don't the red marked tiles reveal land tiles presence to the south. Also, as (mabraham ?) mentioned, the water tiles coloration implies the same thing. I was considering which tile has to be settled in order to get the "culture bridge". I guess any of the two?
I also marked the peak Shulec found.

SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

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