SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Don't the red marked tiles reveal land tiles presence to the south. Also, as (mabraham ?) mentioned, the water tiles coloration implies the same thing.

Apart from the coloration, what about those tiles makes you think they reveal land? We saw them when our warrior was at the various extremities of our land. Land beyond sea has no effect on whether we can see tiles.

I was considering which tile has to be settled in order to get the "culture bridge". I guess any of the two?
I also marked the peak Shulec found.

Either, with a border pop. That suggests settling on the hill if the clams is not already in the set of worked tiles of a marble city, since we'll want a fast border pop to get both the seafood anyway.

 

[mabraham]

I don't have anything else to add. I favor Sailing before pottery unless someone can show that pottery doesn't slow the GLH.

I think I've shown that pottery first doesn't slow our best GLH time, unless someone can harness the rice to get a faster GLH with sailing first. I haven't actually shown that the earlier granaries are a benefit, however. The earlier Sailing-based trade route to the gems city is a slight benefit for sailing first.

We can certainly play up to T48 (the tech decision point) while we continue address this issue.

 

[mabraham]

OK, I got a Sailing-first T73 GLH

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Apart from the coloration, what about those tiles makes you think they reveal land? We saw them when our warrior was at the various extremities of our land. Land beyond sea has no effect on whether we can see tiles.

Don't water tiles get food and commerce in a "BFC" shape around coastal land tiles?
If that is so, the tile 1S of western crabs (under the gems city site) would be an ocean tile without food and commerce. It's not in Shulec's peak „BFC“ either (is it a peak or a forrested hill? I don't remember).

 

[mabraham]

Don't water tiles get food and commerce in a "BFC" shape around coastal land tiles?
If that is so, the tile 1S of western crabs (under the gems city site) would be an ocean tile without food and commerce.

Aha! You're quite right - well done. I'd forgotten that glitch in the mechanics of the tile production overlay.

It's not in Shulec's peak „BFC“ either (is it a peak or a forrested hill? I don't remember).

Peak.

 

[shulec]

Don't the red marked tiles reveal land tiles presence to the south. Also, as (mabraham ?) mentioned, the water tiles coloration implies the same thing. I was considering which tile has to be settled in order to get the "culture bridge". I guess any of the two?

I believe all two coin coastal tiles are surrounded by one coin ocean tiles. I think the red marked tiles have a coin for this reason, not their proximity to land to the south.

I posted previously that a test settling to get the crab and clam creates a culture bridge that reaches the peak.

You have the peak in the wrong tile, it is 1S of where you have it. This is confirmed by only one coin on the tiles that you have marked with red.

 

[mabraham]

I believe all two coin coastal tiles are surrounded by one coin ocean tiles.

Yes, but only orthogonally. See 1S of crabs in the attached screenshot from the test game. WorldBuildering land in the fog changes the display of potential production.

 

[shulec]

Yes, but only orthogonally. See 1S of crabs in the attached screenshot from the test game. WorldBuildering land in the fog changes the display of potential production.

Thanks for setting me straight!

 

[bcool]

Nice work everyone, I agree we need to continue debating sailing vs. pottery, but Kaitzilla can play up to the decision point whenever he feels like it.

mabraham's test games are compelling.
pottery first vs. sailing first
T75 granary, lighthouse, GLH (or T74 w/o granary) vs. T73 lighthouse & GLH ? That makes the decision much harder...

Do we push our luck for just 2 turns and get a granary too? That granary would let Stone city recover so much faster than from the whip of th GLH... Gets us gold and stone working very fast...

I assume mabraham was focusing on the stone city and not the rest of the empire when he was doing those tests since I think granaries in the capital and deer/gems/wheat might actually not be the best call. We might want to build a settler or 2 more before the granary in the capital at least. And maybe a worker or 2 in deer/gems/wheat.

 

[bcool]

I attempted and failed to repeat/improve on mabraham's T75 GLH with pottery first and with a granary in stone city too. I got the sense that it might be possible to improve on the time by growing to 6 pop after the 2 pop whip of the granary and 3 pop whipping the lighthouse. I might be wrong.

mabraham, can you give us the rough details on how you got the T75 GLH, lighthouse, granary?
thanks

 

[mabraham]

I attempted and failed to repeat/improve on mabraham's T75 GLH with pottery first and with a granary in stone city too. I got the sense that it might be possible to improve on the time by growing to 6 pop after the 2 pop whip of the granary and 3 pop whipping the lighthouse. I might be wrong.

mabraham, can you give us the rough details on how you got the T75 GLH, lighthouse, granary?
thanks

IIRC a lighthouse is only 60 hammers, so you can only 3-pop whip it at the start, which has to be wrong.

Basically I worked max food tiles, possibly including Gforest or Gfarm at size 4 and whipped granary the turn before sailing. Then I 2-pop whipped the lighthouse as late as possible to speed re-growth to size 4 for the run home on the hammers tiles. Then 2-pop whipped GLH.

I have some saved games from the run, but I'll try to repeat/improve now and take notes.

 

[bcool]

sorry I meant 3 pop whipping the Great Lighthouse, and just building the lighthouse with raw hammers

 

[mabraham]

Here's the detailed plan, based on the current PPP. My other GLH runs have been on similar lines, but NY has temporised on a warrior where needed. The capital and Boston could do different things if we wanted them to.

Spoiler :

T52
Eiffel road W of NY
Fritz to gold, then road, road, rice-road, road
Karl heads for gems
NY temporises on Pyramids

T54
Go to 0% research
Eiffel does 3 turns on river Gfarm
Start building all 3 granaries
New worker to gems

T56
Go 100% research, work completed gems mine with Boston
NY grows to 2 and works Gforest

T57 Eiffel and Fritz farm rice
NY works rice

T59
Eiffel returns to finish river Gfarm

T60
NY grows to 4 and whips granary
Washington whips granary
Boston works wheat farm
Fritz starts gold mine

T61
Washington builds warrior MP for NY

T62
Eiffel starts river Gmine
New warrior to NY

T64
Boston whips granary
Fritz temporises a turn on a Gcottage

T65
Hunting done, so Karl starts deer camp
Fritz -> Gforest, chop x 3 -> Pforest, chop x 3

T66
Eiffel -> Pforest, chop x 3

T67
NY grows to 5 (?) and 2-whips lighthouse, works rice crabs stone

T68
NY works crabs stone Gmine

T69
NY grows to 4 and works crabs stone Gmine goldmine

T75
whip GLH

T76+
profit!

I tried two variants of bc's idea of not whipping the lighthouse and planning to 3-whip GLH, but they were not close to competitive for T75.

 

[bcool]

I'll try again tonight on the plan to 3 pop whip the great lighthouse. I know it doesn't seem likely since by 2 pop whipping the lighthouse you get 60 hammers and 2 pop whipping the GLH you get 30 hammers and by 3 pop whipping the GLH you only get 45 hammers so my population has to make up 45 hammers+the hammers I don't use growing fast to be competitive.

This is what I remember...
If you max food you have a chance at T75 I thought. I build the grass farm before the border pop and work seafood and oasis after the great wall and then the grass farm at pop 3 before the border pops I think. Then rice when it is ready and 2 pop whip the granary. Then grow back on rice and seafood. Then oasis, then grassfarm, then stone, then grasshill (maxing hammers finally at pop 6 with seafood, stone, grasshill mine, 2 plains forest, gold.) you can chop the grass forest, and time the chop of the plains forest for the turn before you plan to 3 pop whip finish the GLH.

 

[mabraham]

I'll try again tonight on the plan to 3 pop whip the great lighthouse. I know it doesn't seem likely since by 2 pop whipping the lighthouse you get 60 hammers and 2 pop whipping the GLH you get 30 hammers and by 3 pop whipping the GLH you only get 45 hammers so my population has to make up 45 hammers+the hammers I don't use growing fast to be competitive.

This is what I remember...
If you max food you have a chance at T75 I thought. I build the grass farm before the border pop

Yeah that's a tiny improvement on my plan. Worker turns are cheap until the border pop, and then cheap after the two farms are up.

and work seafood and oasis after the great wall and then the grass farm at pop 3 before the border pops I think. Then rice when it is ready and 2 pop whip the granary. Then grow back on rice and seafood. Then oasis, then grassfarm, then stone, then grasshill (maxing hammers finally at pop 6 with seafood, stone, grasshill mine, 2 plains forest, gold.) you can chop the grass forest, and time the chop of the plains forest for the turn before you plan to 3 pop whip finish the GLH.

Hmm you spent more time working forests than I did - maybe that would be enough to get down to T75

 

[frogdude]

mabraham's test games are compelling.
pottery first vs. sailing first
T75 granary, lighthouse, GLH (or T74 w/o granary) vs. T73 lighthouse & GLH ? That makes the decision much harder...

Do we push our luck for just 2 turns and get a granary too? That granary would let Stone city recover so much faster than from the whip of th GLH... Gets us gold and stone working very fast...

I'm still on the fence on this issue. My own tests games haven't managed to do anything better yet. I've gotten 73 with Sailing, and 77 with Pottery & StoneGranary.

Since you guys are busy promoting the pottery line at the moment, I'll take that devil's advocate role

In the situation with Stone City building the GLH in 73, given that it has two 5 food squares to work it will not take long, even granary-less to get itself back to 3/4 population. When it gets to 3 pop, it starts working the stone square, and you will shortly be in a position to whip the granary.
As for the loss of not working the gold square for a few turns, that is more than offset by the 6-8 per turn gained from getting the GLH up earlier

 

[Kaitzilla]

Nice work everyone, I agree we need to continue debating sailing vs. pottery, but Kaitzilla can play up to the decision point whenever he feels like it.

OK, I'll play the game until masonry research is finished with the stopping conditions in mind. The practice game went good.

 

[bcool]

I'll play the game until masonry research is finished with the stopping conditions in mind. The practice game went good.

sounds good

I think my plan to 3 pop whip the great lighthouse is worse. I can't do T75.

I did match mabraham's T75 with a granary/lighthouse/GLH however and i'm at 3 pop instead of 2. (I chopped a forest outside of the BFC however for 10 hammers) and growing to 4 pop the next turn.

I cheated a little bit (world built in another worker to help chop the 3rd forest. I'm confident I can repeat this performance without doing that in the real game

Either by building a worker in the capital or not chopping a forest for the capital with one of the 2 workers we have near stone city.

 

[bcool]

In the situation with Stone City building the GLH in 73, given that it has two 5 food squares to work it will not take long, even granary-less to get itself back to 3/4 population. When it gets to 3 pop, it starts working the stone square, and you will shortly be in a position to whip the granary.
As for the loss of not working the gold square for a few turns, that is more than offset by the 6-8 per turn gained from getting the GLH up earlier

True, sorta. if you grow back to 3/4 pop and then whip the granary and are back done to 2 pop you aren't working the gold for at least 7-8? turns. With the T75 and 3 going to 4 on T76 stone city, that city is strong and can easily build the pyramids for failure gold for us. and then when it is 5 or 6 pop another settler.

A balanced slightly more risky (how much risk is T75 vs. T73?) approach gives a significant boost I think. Easily +40 food +50 commerce +30 hammers in stone city alone. Mabraham's spreadsheet might be able to give more exact numbers on what a T73 GLH would cost us.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Horse was discovered near the bronze. Here is the SS:

Spoiler :

A stopping condition was triggered on T45.
Not one of the good ones

While the micro and barb fogbusting is going precisely as planned, poor old Burke is in a spot of trouble.

Spoiler :

Looks like Woodsman I warrior in woods vs. evil bear. That is 3.6 vs 3 with 10% animal bonus I believe. Burke has no movement point.

Should I stop now or go one more turn to see the result of our misfortune?