SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Kaitzilla · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
there is one north of stone city outside of our culture that would give us 10 hammers for stone city.

Oh wow, I must be blind to miss that. Not sure if it helps us but it might.

If all this micromanaging is hurting everyone's enthusiasm, maybe we should scale back soon. I know it will be impossible to maintain later when the number of cities and units explodes without something like Mabraham's excellent spreadsheet to help. I always just wing it when I play my games, to mild disaster :crazyeye:

.

I don't mind the micro at all personally, for the awesome SGOTM.

bcool · Sep 13, 2011

If all this micromanaging is hurting everyone's enthusiasm, maybe we should scale back soon. I know it will be impossible to maintain later when the number of cities and units explodes without something like Mabraham's excellent spreadsheet to help. I always just wing it when I play my games, to mild disaster .

I don't mind the micro at all personally, for the awesome SGOTM.

I believe this is what they signed up for, so I hope the micro isn't hurting everyone's enthusiasm. I'm pretty busy this week and will have out of town guests next week, so I might not be able to follow it all pretty soon. I'll probably have to skip my turn set, so just a heads up Shulec.

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

Kaitzilla said:
Yes, I like plan 1a also. The first settler comes out much faster.

Can a single worker get gems connected to the empire with roads and build wheat in a decent time? With the modified PPP gold completes on T61 so we have a lot of time to get gems hooked up with roads, maybe T66 or T67 so I can see it working.

Yeah, I can see Goodyear taking care of wheat and a road or two, Karl doing a PFH chop+road (for a pigs settler to walk across later) and then hooking up gems, Eiffel starting the subsequent capital chops after T61, and Fritz hero-three-chopping GLH.

Kaitzilla said:
Also, the earlier rice and gold roads means 1 worker should be able to chop all 3 forests in time for TGL right? That would free up the other to go to the capital.

Fritz could:

T62 walk onto forest
T63-T64 Prechop
T65 walk onto another forest
T66-T68 Chop
T69 walk back to prechopped forest
T70 Chop
T71 walk onto last forest
T72-T74 Chop

I think that's one turn late for a whip on T74. Also, I think we're early enough with GLH that we can save ourselves a worker turn and just do straight chops.

bcool · Sep 13, 2011

Just a random thought before I go to bed, would it be possible to get max overflow on a settler in Stone city and still build the GLH by T75?

Whipping wonders is so inefficient, maybe we can parley your guys better micro into another settler/worker rather than a 1-2 turn improvement on the GLH. Anyone a gambler?

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
Just a random thought before I go to bed, would it be possible to get max overflow on a settler in Stone city and still build the GLH by T75?

No. We can grow to 6 fast, put a turn on a settler and 3-pop whip it T72 for 27 overflow (of 29 max), but now we have to work only our three hammers tiles (so starving at -2 food/turn) to finish GLH on the nose T77 (if we've chopped the far NE forest, too).

bcool said:
Whipping wonders is so inefficient, maybe we can parley your guys better micro into another settler/worker rather than a 1-2 turn improvement on the GLH. Anyone a gambler?

Even two 2-pop whips of workers to get a max of 58 hammers overflow is only an increase of 13 hammers over the straight 45 hammers from a 3-pop whip of GLH. That's only about one turn of max hammer production (12), and we'd lose about two of those on each of the workers, to say nothing of time regrowing.

I don't think this idea is workable.

frogdude · Sep 13, 2011

An update to the PPP based on latest feedback. Bear in mind I don't have access to game so my theoretical analysis of what is possible may be flawed somehow. My plan will be to play a test run of this plan with any other feedback that has come it in about 4-5 hours time.
If the PPP has had sufficient approval/concensus I can either play the actual game an hour or two after that, or 24 hours later.

Spoiler :

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

frogdude said:
An update to the PPP based on latest feedback. Bear in mind I don't have access to game so my theoretical analysis of what is possible may be flawed somehow. My plan will be to play a test run of this plan with any other feedback that has come it in about 4-5 hours time.
If the PPP has had sufficient approval/concensus I can either play the actual game an hour or two after that, or 24 hours later.

Spoiler :

Tech: finish Pottery -> switch to Sailing with 2 turns at 0%

Washington (City) -
Finish Worker
Switch Granary

Stone City (City) -
T52 Switch to Pyramids for some eventual fail gold (working Crab+Oasis)
T54 Switch Granary (working Crab+Oasis)
T56 switch tiles to GHill+Stone+Crab
T59 switch tiles to Rice+
T60 Whip Granary. Kaitzilla & mabraham plans differ in this timing, but my brief examination shows that mabraham's plan gets an extra turn in of working at size 3.

Gem City (City) -
Build south of Wheat
Start Workboat
Work following tiles in priority order (ie switch to them as they become available): 1)Farmed Wheat 2)Mined Gems 3)Unimproved Deer

Eiffel (Worker) -
Turn 52 Road West Stone City (partial)
Turn 53-56 Mine on GHill
Turn 57 Road West Stone City (complete)
Turn 58-59 Farm Rice

Fritz (Worker) -
Turn 52 Head to Gold
Turn 53-54 Road Gold
Turn 55-56 Road Rice
Turn 57-59 Farm Rice

The above achieves the same as Kaitzilla's plan, but less micromanagement at runtime, so I'm less likely to botch it.

Karl (Worker) -
Turn 52-53 Head to Gems
Turn 54-56 Mine Gems
Turn 57 Road W of Gems (1 turn only)
Turn 58-59 Farm Wheat
Turn 60 (not executed) Farm Wheat (complete)
Turn 61 (not executed) Road Gems (wait for Goodyear to finish road before moving)
Turn 62 (not executed) Road Gems
Turn 63-65 (not executed) Road PH NW of Washington (I'm just chucking this out there as a possibility to speed up settler)

Goodyear (new Worker) -
Turn 54 Move PH NW of Washington
Turn 55 Road NE of Gem (1 turn only)
Turn 56 Mine Gems
Turn 57 Road W of Gems (1 turn only)
Turn 58-59 Farm Wheat
Turn 60-61 Road Wheat
Turn 62+ Do stuff for GemsCity

Warriors:

Burke - Keep exploring westerly direction keeping as safe as possible. Use escorts as much as possible.

Columbus - Move to position 2NW of sheep via western coast and fortify. Can set off the turn the settler gets to the settlement site.

Amundsen - Fortify on hill SW of Silver

Malcolm - Move to NW of Elephant and fortify. Will need to wait a couple of turns before setting off to have columbus cover the squares that malcolm will be abandoning.

Stopping Points -

Meet a new AI

Giant Death Robot (Wizard) turns up

Malcolm gets in trouble by a barbarian coming out of dye as he gets onto the elephant. He'll have movement point if this is the case, so he won't be committed to battle, but we'll have to decide whether to retreat him to hill/across river.

Burke gets in danger

Great Lighthouse or Pyramids is completed by AI

AI offers any sort of deal. (Any thoughts on our diplomatic position re: Open Borders)?

Looks good.

Extra stopping criterion should be forest growth near Stone City if that might compromise our later worker micro.

Washington tile use should change when the worker is complete. We want max food.

I think Karl and Goodyear should split up after the gems, per recent post 883.

Pull down out-of-date signs.

Kaitzilla · Sep 13, 2011

mabraham said:
I think that's one turn late for a whip on T74. Also, I think we're early enough with GLH that we can save ourselves a worker turn and just do straight chops.

Oops, you are right about late whip. Straight chops will work too.

I've monkeyed around with that 10 hammers from chopping the forest way up north and I think I have a T73 TGL. It requires both workers to chop for stone city though :blush:

Stone City:
T52 Pyramids
T54 Switch to Granary, VERY IMPORTANT
T56 Granary, (Work ghill mine, stone, crabs)
T59 Whip Granary, (Work wet rice, crabs)
T60 Pyramids
T61 Switch to Lighthouse, VERY IMPORTANT
T62 Lighthouse (Work oasis, wet rice, crabs)
T63 Lighthouse (Work wet rice, crabs, stone, gold)
T65 Whip lighthouse complete with +10 :hammers:

chop and +20 :hammers:

chop, (Work wet rice, crabs)
T66 The Great Lighthouse (Work wet rice, crabs, oasis)
T67 The Great Lighthouse (Work wet rice, crabs, stone)
T68 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill)
T70 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T72 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, oasis)
T73 Whip The Great Lighthouse

Eiffel

T62 Move to forest north of stone city and chop
T66 Move to forest 1NW of stone city and chop

Fritz

T62 Move to forest 2W of stone city and chop
T66 Move to forest 2S of stone city and chop

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

T73 confirmed. Attached is a PDF plan that incorporates frogdude's simplified early worker micro, as well as tile optimization that gives minimum final food and hammer overflow (i.e. 0 and 2), and two extra turns working the gold mine during GLH production.

frogdude · Sep 13, 2011

mabraham said:
Looks good.

Extra stopping criterion should be forest growth near Stone City if that might compromise our later worker micro.

Washington tile use should change when the worker is complete. We want max food.

I think Karl and Goodyear should split up after the gems, per recent post 883.

Pull down out-of-date signs.

If we're going to split up Karl and Goodyear after gems, there's plenty of merit in not even sending Goodyear over to help the gems at all. It's costing him 2 worker turns in movement (with a small rebate in the form of a partial road on a dubious square).
If we just send him out NW of washington, he has time to chop for Washington plan 1a, then triple road on the NW axis, just in time for the settler to move to city site in 1 turn.
He's then in position on time for the pig.

Karl just mines gems, partial road between gems+wheat, farms wheat, completes road between gems+wheat, and roads gems.

I played a testrun with this basis with attached save.

I'll aim to play real game in 22 hours time.

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

frogdude said:
If we're going to split up Karl and Goodyear after gems, there's plenty of merit in not even sending Goodyear over to help the gems at all. It's costing him 2 worker turns in movement (with a small rebate in the form of a partial road on a dubious square).
If we just send him out NW of washington, he has time to chop for Washington plan 1a, then triple road on the NW axis, just in time for the settler to move to city site in 1 turn.
He's then in position on time for the pig.

Karl just mines gems, partial road between gems+wheat, farms wheat, completes road between gems+wheat, and roads gems.

I played a testrun with this basis with attached save.

I'll aim to play real game in 22 hours time.

Merit, yes, but I don't know about "plenty" of it. With only one worker in support, a naive "unimproved deer, then gems mine, then wheat farm, then gems mine, then deer camp" strategy starts working the gems one turn later, and the wheat farm three turns later. Growing to size three and working the deer will be later also. The pigs settler plants at the same time in either approach so long as we make some effort towards it. The NW axis roads are nice, but we don't need them this early, and so the "gain" from not wasting time moving the worker around is offset by building some roads whose value is very limited. We do get to start improving pigs about a turn sooner, but I don't think that stacks up well against the later improvements and growths in the gems city.

I don't think we built a fourth worker to get a chop for the capital, a road built to the fourth city, and slightly faster growth for it. We built it to get the third city and capital going faster. There's still some doubt about the best compromise to achieve the latter. Hopefully someone can summarise and we can agree on that tomorrow.

bcool · Sep 13, 2011

I agree I would rather "waste" a worker turn or 2 and get the gems faster and the wheat faster rather than road to the pigs.

This is mabraham's original suggestion for Goodyear that I think has support (from me at least now)

Spoiler :

However given that we want to settle the pigs 1st now we might want to reconsider to this
Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves to plains hill NW of Washington
T58 chops
T59 chop
T60 done chop
T61 road
T62 road (for settler produced and ready to move T64)
T63 move to next forest to chop
T64 etc...

I need to look at how this delays the 2nd settler from Washington (it might not delay it...)
in spoiler my ramblings about how to adjust option 1a and get a road

Spoiler :

easier solution for getting a plains hill road is to delay starting the settler to T61, so that we can have 21 hammers in the granary before we switch to the settler. This delays the settler to be ready to move T65 but it lets the settler move over the plains hill with a road. And then Goodyear can chop the 2nd forest at his leisure for the 2nd settler out of washington.

1) Go with option A (washington build opiton 1A and mabraham's original plan for Goodyear)
---no road on plains hill so settler ready T64, but loses a turn+ with movement
2) Go with option B (washington build option 1A but delay the start of the settler to T61 and Goodyear chops the plains hill forest and roads it after the gems)
---delays the settler by 1 turn (so ready to move T65) but gives that settler a road on the plains hill
3) Go with option C (washington build option 2 which delays the settler build there to be ready to move T67 with plains hill road)
4) Go with option D (frogdude's suggestion)
5) Go with option E (something version of the above options but improved)

I think option B is the best, but of course I could be wrong.

Devil's advocate
Is producing wonders as early as possible always better? What do we sacrifice for producing the GLH T73? worker help for the capital is one. How fast could we build the GLH if we didn't whip it? Whipping it just gives 45 hammers, so couldn't we shift the population around on T73 and build the GLH by T76-7 with raw hammers and have a 6 pop city working the gold, etc?
I assume given your guys results that T76 is possible if you time the last 2 chops to finish on T76.

shulec · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
I'm pretty busy this week and will have out of town guests next week, so I might not be able to follow it all pretty soon. I'll probably have to skip my turn set, so just a heads up Shulec.

Noted.

I have followed the discussion, but most of it means nothing to me without running through a test game. I hope to be able to try this afternoon, so I can opine what micro plan I think is best.

shulec · Sep 13, 2011

Request:
Can we be more specific when naming a tile with reference to resource or tile. I had some confusion with a few tiles. I eventually figured out which tile was being discussed.

For example:
W of Stone city.
2NW of Sheep.

It is more clear if these tiles can be restated as:
1W of stone city
2N2W of Sheep

2NW of sheep could be taken as 2N1W (and I did take it to mean this for some time.) I am not trying to be difficult, but really misunderstood what tile was being discussed.

Suggestion:
Our settler needs barb protection from the tile 1S1W of Gem city site, therefore I suggest:

T52 Columbus moves to Jungle 1S1W of Wheat for barb protection for setter for one turn. Then proceeds to 2N2W of Sheep (Washington).

Assumed since not stated:
Found Gems city T54, work deer tile until gem mine available.

bcool · Sep 13, 2011

good suggestion on moving Columbus T52 it is possible a barbarian has wandered in from the spoke (it couldn't spawn there). So if you move it T52 and see no threat it is safe to move it back T53 back to its original space, since no barbarian can spawn within 2 spaces of a unit.

good suggestion/request on tile locations 2N2W instead of 2NW.

frogdude · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
1) Go with option A (washington build opiton 1A and mabraham's original plan for Goodyear)
---no road on plains hill so settler ready T64, but loses a turn+ with movement
2) Go with option B (washington build option 1A but delay the start of the settler to T61 and Goodyear chops the plains hill forest and roads it after the gems)
---delays the settler by 1 turn (so ready to move T65) but gives that settler a road on the plains hill
3) Go with option C (washington build option 2 which delays the settler build there to be ready to move T67 with plains hill road)
4) Go with option D (frogdude's suggestion)
5) Go with option E (something version of the above options but improved)

I don't mind much between these. There's not much between them.
I think I have a preference for Goodyear if he heads for the gems to not get back to the capital via the 2S1W of Washington forest, simply because we may want to math chop it later to get the culture-bridge city going.
Instead he can head back via the PH North of Washington, and if we want him to get in two chops before feeling obliged to put a road up there, we could even chop the silk forest on the way.

Kaitzilla · Sep 13, 2011

frogdude said:
T60 Whip Granary. Kaitzilla & mabraham plans differ in this timing, but my brief examination shows that mabraham's plan gets an extra turn in of working at size 3.

I think Mabraham's plan also whips the granary on T59. It says completed on T60 and Pyramids is in the build order on T60.

mabraham said:
T73 confirmed. Attached is a PDF plan that incorporates frogdude's simplified early worker micro, as well as tile optimization that gives minimum final food and hammer overflow (i.e. 0 and 2), and two extra turns working the gold mine during GLH production.

That is a good idea! I like the extra gold turns.

bcool said:
I agree I would rather "waste" a worker turn or 2 and get the gems faster and the wheat faster rather than road to the pigs.

Devil's advocate
Is producing wonders as early as possible always better? What do we sacrifice for producing the GLH T73? worker help for the capital is one. How fast could we build the GLH if we didn't whip it? Whipping it just gives 45 hammers, so couldn't we shift the population around on T73 and build the GLH by T76-7 with raw hammers and have a 6 pop city working the gold, etc?
I assume given your guys results that T76 is possible if you time the last 2 chops to finish on T76.

I too like faster gems and wheat. As long as we work gems enough to get sailing done by the end of T60 so we can switch to lighthouse on T61 in Stone City I'm happy.

It is true that we are sacrificing rapid expansion in order to build wonders, but there are many positives to finishing wonders as fast as possible.

1) Emperor maintenance costs will matter on such a large map with no world wrap. The Great Lighthouse will be very important to keep our economy from stalling.

2) We get double Great person points.

3) Our economy won't die when we whip ourselves silly.

4) We can't just walk over and grab a wonder we want 50 tiles away.

5) Failing on the Great Lighthouse will be a direct 1 to 1 hammer to gold conversion.

6) Stone City can be building a Settler again on T75 I think.

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
I agree I would rather "waste" a worker turn or 2 and get the gems faster and the wheat faster rather than road to the pigs.

This is mabraham's original suggestion for Goodyear that I think has support (from me at least now)

Spoiler :

Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves SE-SE
T58 chops
T59 chop
T60 done chop

However given that we want to settle the pigs 1st now we might want to reconsider to this
Goodyear
T54 moves PH
T55 moves W and roads & stops
T56 moves & finishes gems
T57 moves to plains hill NW of Washington
T58 chops
T59 chop
T60 done chop
T61 road
T62 road (for settler produced and ready to move T64)
T63 move to next forest to chop
T64 etc...

Yeah. The PDFs for 1a and 2 were aimed at settling the crab-marble site, so there is no reason to feel bound to their timing. The above is fine.

bcool said:
I need to look at how this delays the 2nd settler from Washington (it might not delay it...)
in spoiler my ramblings about how to adjust option 1a and get a road

Spoiler :

Okay it makes finishing the granary in the capital awkward.
Actually we can uses the sheep and cows after the settler is whipped.
proposed change to plan 1a that allows a PH road
T64 granary build continues 13 hammers invested already 35 Overflow from settler whip, use sheep and cows for +6 food and +4 hammers
T65 sheep and cows again
T66 cows and plains hill mine to leave 14 food in the bin when granary is finished.
and the 2nd chop could be delayed further if we wanted and not delay the production of the 2nd settler.
*** I'm pretty sure the above plan to finish the granary sucks.

Yup

bcool said:
easier solution for getting a plains hill road is to delay starting the settler to T61, so that we can have 21 hammers in the granary before we switch to the settler. This delays the settler to be ready to move T65 but it lets the settler move over the plains hill with a road. And then Goodyear can chop the 2nd forest at his leisure for the 2nd settler out of washington.

I don't see any reason to delay starting the settler. Goodyear: T57 move PFH, T58-60 chop, T61-2 road gets that road out easily. The timing of the settler whip in the 1a PDF is so that the overflow finishes the granary. The T64 chop completion is not important - it was just clearing the way for the settler to move SE. Without it, we can just work sheep+cows T64-5. There's no rush to finish a granary before the food bin is half full.

We want Goodyear in position to move towards the pigs... but we can leave that detail for next turn set.

bcool said:
1) Go with option A (washington build opiton 1A and mabraham's original plan for Goodyear)
---no road on plains hill so settler ready T64, but loses a turn+ with movement
2) Go with option B (washington build option 1A but delay the start of the settler to T61 and Goodyear chops the plains hill forest and roads it after the gems)
---delays the settler by 1 turn (so ready to move T65) but gives that settler a road on the plains hill
3) Go with option C (washington build option 2 which delays the settler build there to be ready to move T67 with plains hill road)
4) Go with option D (frogdude's suggestion)
5) Go with option E (something version of the above options but improved)

I think option B is the best, but of course I could be wrong.

I think E is best. See attached PDF for an option 1a approach aimed at settling pigs with immediate worker support. Note that the capital's granary finishes in time for the granary bin to fill - any earlier is not actually an advantage.

bcool · Sep 13, 2011

I'm happy if E is best, I must have misinterpreted the original 1a plan which I thought could not finish the granary without the chop on T64 and would have had more than 1/2 in food bin when the granary finished with the delayed chop unless we worked non-ideal tiles.

The new pdf somewhat mysteriously seems to get 4 more hammers after the whip than the original pdf. 1 comes from working the cows instead of the cornfarm, but I'm not sure where the 3 other hammers come from unless there was an error with the original pdf.

mabraham · Sep 13, 2011

bcool said:
Devil's advocate
Is producing wonders as early as possible always better? What do we sacrifice for producing the GLH T73? worker help for the capital is one. How fast could we build the GLH if we didn't whip it? Whipping it just gives 45 hammers, so couldn't we shift the population around on T73 and build the GLH by T76-7 with raw hammers and have a 6 pop city working the gold, etc?
I assume given your guys results that T76 is possible if you time the last 2 chops to finish on T76.

Slow-building T75 is possible - one worker does three chops and the other one does one. Then we could start a settler at size 6 - but our sixth tile is only the oasis. After whipping T73, we are back at size 5 on T76. GLH returns 6 :commerce:

6

per turn at this point, but this is offset by working more of the gold mine, and getting a faster settler from the capital if we don't whip.

I'm OK with the risk associated with pushing GLH out to T75. It does get faster post-GLH settler for the silver site. In the medium term I expect SC will stay at size 4 or higher working the four resource tiles, and the river Gmine will be worked mostly by the capital. Either approach works OK with this, but not whipping GLH caters slightly better to it.

SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Warlord

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Attachments

Warlord

Attachments

Deity

Deity

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Deity

Warlord

Lord Croissant

Deity

Attachments

Deity

Deity

Similar threads