SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Kaitzilla]

That PPP looks pretty good Shulec


Washington can get the granary in 2 turns if you switch to sheep,cow on T63 and keep using it on T64 and T65. Once the granary is completed, switching to corn+sheep will grow the capital very fast indeed.


Moving the warrior over to Stone City won't be needed if we are going to 3 pop whip TGL complete. However, we will need to do it if we are going to slow build TGL on T75 as the capital is unable to build a warrior for Stone City before it is needed on T73. It can be done, but it either wastes a chop or really slows the 2nd settler from Washington. The gems must be connected to the empire by T67.

There is ongoing debate on where to put the 4th city, but most are leaning towards either 1SW of pigs, or 1N or pigs. I believe Mabraham's plan E mentioned sending a worker up to improve pigs right away. I'm not sure what is best at the moment, my head is starting to hurt

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Good turn set frogdude!

shulec, your PPP looks fine.

I suggest you play through t74 (beginning of turn after The Great Lighthouse is completed).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[bcool]

I want the GLH in Stone City T75 for these reasons

I don't know exactly how much faster we can get a settler out of stone city if we whip vs. not whipping, but I would imagine we could do it 3 turns faster at least. Plus we would have 10 fewer whip-unhappiness-turns in stone city. Getting that settler out of stone city means we start developing a silver city that much faster most likely. Which will have significant gains in of itself beyond what a 6 pop Stone city produces.

We were happy risking the GLH at T75 with pottery first instead of sailing. The advantages of slow building the GLH are comparable to the advantages we thought we would get going with pottery first instead of sailing. The commerce we lose not finishing the GLH T73 is more than offset by working the gold those 3 turns. The food and hammer advantage a 6 pop Stone City can produce is significant, and we use that population to get use 90 hammers for a settler+ or we can use that population for extra commerce while building the settler. I'm only suggesting that we take the same risk that we thought we were taking by going pottery first to get similar gains.

And it can be done by working, (crabs, stone quarry, grass hill mine, gold, plains forest (that is saved until T75), unimproved plains unless there is 2nd unchopped forest) That produces 15 hammers per turn starting T73, you can switch off of the crabs if you need that last hammer on T75 after the last plains forest is chopped.

Karl
T60-T62 Farm wheat
T63 Finish road 1W of wheat
T64-68 Move to and build camp
T69-70 Move to and build mine on PH south of Gems City

I assume you mean T63 road 1E of wheat

Research
T61 0% Research toward Hunting
T62-63 Hunting
T64-65 0% Research toward Mysticism
T66-68 Mysticism
T69-70 0% Research toward Writing

Maybe we can get mysticism a turn earlier by dropping below 100% research for turn T65, T66, T67? (in my tests I had no trouble finishing mysticism by T67, is the test game different than the real game?)
We actually might have the legs to tech writing before mysticism is necessary. Especially if we whip a monument out of the proposed western cultural bridge city. Writing first might mean we get AI trade routes earlier.

Settling spots.
We have to now reconsider where we settle our next city I think given that we probably want a cultural bridge city in the West as well.

so perhaps the GP Farm site and a site 2W1S of the pigs that shares the wheat with gems city.

Spoiler :

settle 2W1S of pigs
I think settling the cultural bridge to the west that shares the wheat allows us to work the wheat tile with the new city, and have that city work a good tile. Versus settling the GP farm and having to work non-ideal tiles for quite some time.

Once that city is founded it can either build a workboat or granary until a turn before it grows to 2 pop on the wheat, then work a monument for 1 turn and whip a monument.
This cultural bridge city might pop about the time we do settle the GP Farm which would allow us to immediately improve the pigs for the GP Farm city to work.

This plan frees up a worker since the pigs can no longer be immediately improved. It also gets us that western cultural bridge as soon as possible. This allows us to build the camp and road the gems quickly.

Columbus could still go over to stone city, but I think if we settle 2W1S of the pigs we would leave some tiles in the fog.

The alternatives are to settle 1N of the Pigs or 1S1W of the pigs.
settle 1N of the pigs?
1N of the pigs is attractive only if we wish to delay mysticism and use the gems city as our GPFarm (it is nearly as good as the original proposed GP Farm--better perhaps since it will be faster to build a National Epic there).

If we settle 1N of the pigs then we could settle a city on the plains hill 1N1W of the oasis. That city is also immediately useful without a border pop. And could get a workboat quickly from the city we settle 1N of the pigs.
This city also has access to ivory immediately, so that opens might help resolve happiness issues down the line if we don't have MP units.

settle 1S1W of the pigs
Settling 1S1W of the pigs shares the wheat as well and has immediate access to the pigs, but it is a significantly worse cultural bridge city.

cautions
you want to delete the pyramids from stone city's queue after T61 (just to help avoid any accidents)

 

[shulec]

settle 2W1S of pigs
I think settling the cultural bridge to the west that shares the wheat allows us to work the wheat tile with the new city, and have that city work a good tile. Versus settling the GP farm and having to work non-ideal tiles for quite some time.

Once that city is founded it can either build a workboat or granary until a turn before it grows to 2 pop on the wheat, then work a monument for 1 turn and whip a monument.
This cultural bridge city might pop about the time we do settle the GP Farm which would allow us to immediately improve the pigs for the GP Farm city to work.

This plan frees up a worker since the pigs can no longer be immediately improved. It also gets us that western cultural bridge as soon as possible. This allows us to build the camp and road the gems quickly.

Columbus could still go over to stone city, but I think if we settle 2W1S of the pigs we would leave some tiles in the fog.

I like the alternative to settling the GP farm. There is going to be a lot of extra food in Gems City until we get some mines built. I don't want to break up the GP farm site. If we need to bulb our way through Electricity for UN, we need as strong of a GP farm as possible. If we need GA's, I also want an awesome GA farm. If we end up going military, it doesn't matter as much. We can make this a Globe Theater unit farm if needed.

Your correction on the road will be changed in a moment.

Mysticism can easily come one turn earlier if we break form Binary research. We do have to do that to on T60 to get Sailing, but that is needed for the LH to get the GLH on T73.

If someone want to provide the turn by turn micro for a GLH natural build on T75, please offer it up and I can work on the comprehensive micro. With the current Micro, the GLH will finish at about T77 if built without a whip.

EDIT: It looks like bcool has outlined the micro in his post. If the group decides build over whip, I will reconfigure. It may not even matter for turn 60-70, but if it does, we want to get it right.

 

[shulec]

Washington can get the granary in 2 turns if you switch to sheep,cow on T63 and keep using it on T64 and T65. Once the granary is completed, switching to corn+sheep will grow the capital very fast indeed.

You are right. This gets us to pop five one turn sooner. I have to reconfigure the PPP because this will affect the builds in Wash around T71.

 

[frogdude]

Settling spots.
We have to now reconsider where we settle our next city I think given that we probably want a cultural bridge city in the West as well.

so perhaps the GP Farm site and a site 2W1S of the pigs that shares the wheat with gems city.

Spoiler :

View attachment 301827

settle 2W1S of pigs
I think settling the cultural bridge to the west that shares the wheat allows us to work the wheat tile with the new city, and have that city work a good tile. Versus settling the GP farm and having to work non-ideal tiles for quite some time.

Once that city is founded it can either build a workboat or granary until a turn before it grows to 2 pop on the wheat, then work a monument for 1 turn and whip a monument.
This cultural bridge city might pop about the time we do settle the GP Farm which would allow us to immediately improve the pigs for the GP Farm city to work.

This plan frees up a worker since the pigs can no longer be immediately improved. It also gets us that western cultural bridge as soon as possible. This allows us to build the camp and road the gems quickly.

Columbus could still go over to stone city, but I think if we settle 2W1S of the pigs we would leave some tiles in the fog.

The alternatives are to settle 1N of the Pigs or 1S1W of the pigs.
settle 1N of the pigs?
1N of the pigs is attractive only if we wish to delay mysticism and use the gems city as our GPFarm (it is nearly as good as the original proposed GP Farm--better perhaps since it will be faster to build a National Epic there).

If we settle 1N of the pigs then we could settle a city on the plains hill 1N1W of the oasis. That city is also immediately useful without a border pop. And could get a workboat quickly from the city we settle 1N of the pigs.
This city also has access to ivory immediately, so that opens might help resolve happiness issues down the line if we don't have MP units.

settle 1S1W of the pigs
Settling 1S1W of the pigs shares the wheat as well and has immediate access to the pigs, but it is a significantly worse cultural bridge city.

If we want the western culture bridge via a city 2W1S of pigs, then we could potentially put with it the city 2S of fish.
That city's role would be heroic epic city as we have no other real candidates of cities to do that job. Something in our empire needs to crank out hammers & units. With the fish + farmed floodplain + oasis, it makes sufficient food to work that pile of hills around it.
The GemCity would then definitely be on GP farm duty
Both cities on that side need Mysticism to get going though.

To finish off our area we can then put cities: on the desert hill 2N1E of gold; something in the far northwest to pick up dye, 2 cities on the southern coastline.
That spoke is pretty tasty too.

 

[mabraham]

I am concerned by the lack of consistency between

• settling a western culture bridge city that needs a border pop to do much of anything, and two pops to serve its purpose - which caters mostly to a fast war (but also to AI trade routes),
• then settling a GP farm - which caters mostly to long-term tech (and pretty much forces one of the gems or copper cities to be the Heroic Epic city),
• not settling a southern coastal sites that can be useful without needing a border pop or need only one border pop for a culture bridge and fast war,
• and building a workboat that's only marginally useful for scouting the southern coast, instead of using it for an early city near the marble.

The impetus for settling west came from the desire to get working the pigs fast, but our current plans are really not achieving that. Stealing the wheat to whip a monument, and then whip a workboat for the seafood is rather tortuous. A western culture bridge city is all very well, but if we don't use it for a war right away we'd have been better off settling something else, and long-term it's going to be a useless food-poor city.

If we give the wheat to Culture Bridge, then it can whip a monument after 5 turns, and its workboat 4 turns after that (or with a worker putting up its Gmine, it can slow-build the workboat in 8 more turns). Either way the workboat plants after 15 turns.

Settling the GP farm straight away with a worker in support seems better to me. 7 turns working the silk while we chop-then-Gmine gives 14 food and 14+20 hammers (monument builds after turn 5), then 1 turn of silk and 6 turns of Gmine gives us growth to size two and a workboat for the fish approximately synched with the border pop, and slow-build a second workboat off fish+Gmine. Meanwhile, the worker can build the NW mine while waiting to improve the pigs. Gems city has been able to work the wheat throughout.

If we judge we need trade routes or want a war (and want it west), we can settle the culture bridge city later.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Getting T75 The Great Lighthouse without whipping is pretty straightforward. This is how I'd do it.

Spoiler :

Fritz:

T60-T61 Mine the gold tile.
T62 Move to forest north of Stone City outside borders
T63-T65 Chop
T66 Move to forest 1NW of Stone City
T67-T69 Chop
T70-T71 Farm river plains tile 2W of Stone City
T72 Move to forest 2S of Stone City
T73-T75 Chop

Eiffel:

T60-T61 Mine the gold tile.
T62 Move to forest 2W of Stone City
T63-T65 Chop
T66-T68 Farm river plains tile 2W of Stone City
T69 Help the capital, such as: Move to forest 1N of Washington
T70-T72 Chop

Stone City:

T60 Pyramids, (Work rice, crabs)
T61 Switch to Lighthouse, VERY IMPORTANT
T62 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis)
T63 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, gold, stone)
T64 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, grass hill, stone)
T65 Whip Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs)
T66 The Great Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis)
T67 The Great Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis, stone)
T69 The Great Ligthhouse, (Work rice, crabs, stone, gold, grass hill)
T73 The Great Lighthouse, (Work crabs, stone, gold, grass hill, farmed plains, forest plains)
T75 The Great Lighthouse, (Work crabs, stone, gold, grass hill, farmed plains, plains)

*Note, gems must be connected to empire by T67, and a garrison unit must be present by T73.

It is true that we were ok delaying TGL from T73 to T75 for the sake of pottery, so I guess I can't really complain for doing the same for more gold and rapid expansion.
T75 TGL works the gold at least 3 more turns and probably more down the line. It can whip a settler 2 turns faster than T73 TGL, and will leave 3 population behind instead of 2.
I'll vote for doing it as long as we are willing to risk moving over one of our 3 garrison warriors to Stone City before T73.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Does anyone have an awesome screenshot of our Western coast like Shulec had of our Southern? If we see hints of the North Witches land, we can better plan where we will want our 4th city. I don't know the BFC ocean tile graphical glitch thing people were talking about earlier.

Another option for 4th city is 1S of the silver tile. It can start working pigs right away too.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm in favor of bcool's suggestion to organically build and forest chop The Great Lighthouse. Whipping a great wonder is definitely to be avoided, unless the build schedule is extremely tight (we might reasonably lose the race to TGL).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

The 4th city is turning into a real headscratcher. Do we want a great person farm that will eventually run up to 8 specialists? Or a heroic epic city that will produce around +50 per turn in military units and ships?


I don't think the southern workboat is that useless. Once it scouts down to the east witches, a trade route becomes possible. It will also eventually allow us to gift tons of health resources we might not need for diplomacy points. A relgion spread is also possible. Then it can head back up the coast and help marble city, or keep exploring south for more trade routes.

I'm not an expert on trade routes. Sometimes they form and I'm not entirely sure how it is possible.

 

[mabraham]

Getting T75 The Great Lighthouse without whipping is pretty straightforward. This is how I'd do it.

Spoiler :

Fritz:

T60-T61 Mine the gold tile.
T62 Move to forest north of Stone City outside borders
T63-T65 Chop
T66 Move to forest 1NW of Stone City
T67-T69 Chop
T70-T71 Farm river plains tile 2W of Stone City
T72 Move to forest 2S of Stone City
T73-T75 Chop

Eiffel:

T60-T61 Mine the gold tile.
T62 Move to forest 2W of Stone City
T63-T65 Chop
T66-T68 Farm river plains tile 2W of Stone City
T69 Help the capital, such as: Move to forest 1N of Washington
T70-T72 Chop

Stone City:

T60 Pyramids, (Work rice, crabs)
T61 Switch to Lighthouse, VERY IMPORTANT
T62 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis)
T63 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, gold, stone)
T64 Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, grass hill, stone)
T65 Whip Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs)
T66 The Great Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis)
T67 The Great Lighthouse, (Work rice, crabs, oasis, stone)
T69 The Great Ligthhouse, (Work rice, crabs, stone, gold, grass hill)
T73 The Great Lighthouse, (Work crabs, stone, gold, grass hill, farmed plains, forest plains)
T75 The Great Lighthouse, (Work crabs, stone, gold, grass hill, farmed plains, plains)

*Note, gems must be connected to empire by T67, and a garrison unit must be present by T73.

I have a different micro (PDF attached), and I think it is better because I end with 10 more food in the box (more working of rice tile) and the workers haven't had to build the Pfarm (but 6 fewer commerce for some reason). Instead, I have a road in place for a settler heading to the silver city, and three worker turns (say) for the capital. Chopping the southern-most forest first with Fritz and then heading to finish the capital's new Pmine syncs fairly well with capital growth to size 5 with an early warrior to be the Stone City MP at T73, assuming Karl is heading off to the fourth city (wherever it is).

It is true that we were ok delaying TGL from T73 to T75 for the sake of pottery, so I guess I can't really complain for doing the same for more gold and rapid expansion.
T75 TGL works the gold at least 3 more turns and probably more down the line. It can whip a settler 2 turns faster than T73 TGL, and will leave 3 population behind instead of 2.
I'll vote for doing it as long as we are willing to risk moving over one of our 3 garrison warriors to Stone City before T73.

Yes, I agree - I think GLH T75 is calculated risk that offers enough gain.

 

[bcool]

I agree with mabraham that the western cultural bridge city is pretty weak which is why I suggested some alternatives.

Settling the GP Farm first is an alternative I should have considered and isn't that bad with worker support. We will have to delay that worker support a little bit or improving the deer a little bit if we want a road for gems by T67 I believe. Letting gems keep the wheat is nice and that lets gems whip another settler for us sooner rather than later.
I like the option of leaving open the cultural bridge city.
Delaying that cultural bridge does however make getting 2 border pops in a reasonable/useful timeframe less likely.

An exploratory workboat could conceivable fog bust for us too. There are very good odds that a barbarian city will form near the copper and cows site. That would be awkward. And the workboat could be used to prevent that until we can get another unit down there or a settler. It would be nice to have copper without having to fight off barbarians with potentially no metal units.

I also think we should look into teching hunting - writing - mysticism. If we settle the GP Farm first this might delay the monument, but maybe not if you time the forest chop. Getting writing first might give us some AI trade routes and get a small turn advantage with AI relations from slightly earlier open border agreements..

 

[mabraham]

Does anyone have an awesome screenshot of our Western coast like Shulec had of our Southern? If we see hints of the North Witches land, we can better plan where we will want our 4th city. I don't know the BFC ocean tile graphical glitch thing people were talking about earlier.

See #747 and some posts just before it. With tile production visible, the presence of food and coins on an ocean tile that is diagonally two away from our land is proof that a land tile exists such that if a city was built on that tile, the ocean tile would be in its BFC. Presumably, that is land of the northern witches.

Another option for 4th city is 1S of the silver tile. It can start working pigs right away too.

I'm keen to settle the silver site 5th and on the desert hill, after the GP site, because we can settle it the turn of the settler-whip in the stone city, and so work the gold tile while the stone city is too small to want to. This builds the monument while a worker chops the PFH up there, and is in position to improve the pigs. Meanwhile a workboat arrives from SC after its settler...

 

[mabraham]

I don't think the southern workboat is that useless. Once it scouts down to the east witches, a trade route becomes possible. It will also eventually allow us to gift tons of health resources we might not need for diplomacy points. A relgion spread is also possible. Then it can head back up the coast and help marble city, or keep exploring south for more trade routes.

I'm not an expert on trade routes. Sometimes they form and I'm not entirely sure how it is possible.

Post-sailing, pooling the map knowledge of the civs involved, we need to be able to trace a galley route through friendly territory for the possibility of trade routes. Even if the workboat establishes this safely, barbarian city spawn along the large coastline will be likely to cut it fairly soon. This cuts the resource trading potential, also. Moreover, the AI scouting has probably already covered the coastline of their spoke, and I believe we don't both need it. We can get trade routes in the test game and we don't have coast information all the way to the Vikings.

The workboat from the gems city has time to do a counter-clockwise lap and be in position to plant on the GPfarm fish the turn of the border pop...

 

[Kaitzilla]

I have a different micro (PDF attached), and I think it is better because I end with 10 more food in the box (more working of rice tile) and the workers haven't had to build the Pfarm (but 6 fewer commerce for some reason). Instead, I have a road in place for a settler heading to the silver city, and three worker turns (say) for the capital. Chopping the southern-most forest first with Fritz and then heading to finish the capital's new Pmine syncs fairly well with capital growth to size 5 with an early warrior to be the Stone City MP at T73, assuming Karl is heading off to the fourth city (wherever it is).

Woo, that looks really nice

 

[bcool]

The workboat from the gems city has time to do a counter-clockwise lap and be in position to plant on the GPfarm fish the turn of the border pop...

I would rather have the GPfarm produce this and use this workboat to fog bust.
Or we could even consider build a fort to let Gems city boats cut through to the other side without going around.

Quote: Originally Posted by mabraham
I have a different micro (PDF attached), and I think it is better because I end with 10 more food in the box (more working of rice tile) and the workers haven't had to build the Pfarm (but 6 fewer commerce for some reason). Instead, I have a road in place for a settler heading to the silver city, and three worker turns (say) for the capital. Chopping the southern-most forest first with Fritz and then heading to finish the capital's new Pmine syncs fairly well with capital growth to size 5 with an early warrior to be the Stone City MP at T73, assuming Karl is heading off to the fourth city (wherever it is).


Woo, that looks really nice

I agree

I'm keen to settle the silver site 5th and on the desert hill, after the GP site, because we can settle it the turn of the settler-whip in the stone city, and so work the gold tile while the stone city is too small to want to. This builds the monument while a worker chops the PFH up there, and is in position to improve the pigs. Meanwhile a workboat arrives from SC after its settler...

sounds like an excellent plan.

settler from stone city I assume would do this.
settler from the capital can settle the southern cultural bridge
settler from gems city can settle near copper perhaps. Or perhaps we will want a worker from gems city before another settler.

 

[mabraham]

Settling the GP Farm first is an alternative I should have considered and isn't that bad with worker support. We will have to delay that worker support a little bit or improving the deer a little bit if we want a road for gems by T67 I believe. Letting gems keep the wheat is nice and that lets gems whip another settler for us sooner rather than later.

In a test game I just played out that incorporated all the ideas I'm suggesting here, I used Goodyear to just farm wheat, finish the road, road the gems, and get the deer camp and road depending on the timing. It would be better if this was faster, but we have to trade off Karl helping the gems city or Karl helping the GPfarm.

Spoiler :

I like the option of leaving open the cultural bridge city.
Delaying that cultural bridge does however make getting 2 border pops in a reasonable/useful timeframe less likely.

100 culture for two border pops takes 30 turns even if you can beam in a post-monument library from outer space. So about 50 turns would be a minimum for this poor city site, unless we do it at a time when we can spam missionaries or Caste artists at it - and that would still be 30-ish turns. So when we want to settle it depends when we think we'll want it, and that depends if its purpose is for war, or not.

An exploratory workboat could conceivable fog bust for us too. There are very good odds that a barbarian city will form near the copper and cows site. That would be awkward. And the workboat could be used to prevent that until we can get another unit down there or a settler. It would be nice to have copper without having to fight off barbarians with potentially no metal units.

Yeah. One advantage of settling the GPfarm site is that the warrior there can head off down the spoke to do this fog-busting (or die uselessly if it's my turn set...)

I also think we should look into teching hunting - writing - mysticism. If we settle the GP Farm first this might delay the monument, but maybe not if you time the forest chop. Getting writing first might give us some AI trade routes and get a small turn advantage with AI relations from slightly earlier open border agreements..

I was about to suggest mysticism-hunting-writing, because having mysticism earlier gets the GPfarm border pop earlier. Delaying hunting a bit combines well with having only one worker for the gems site, because Karl heads off to the GPfarm after putting a road and just one turn on the capital's PFH mine after chopping. It does cost at least one turn on the deer camp being available, however. This is pre-granary, so not too serious, I think.

 

[bcool]

Test game looks good, mysticism-hunting-writing is fine. I thought delaying mysticism might be possible. I thought the tech situation was better than the PPP seemed to suggest.

 

[mabraham]

I would rather have the GPfarm produce this and use this workboat to fog bust.

That's a good use for this workboat.

Or we could even consider build a fort to let Gems city boats cut through to the other side without going around.

Not before Maths - fort prereq

I agree

sounds like an excellent plan.

settler from stone city I assume would do this i.e. settling silver.
settler from the capital can settle the southern cultural bridge
settler from gems city can settle near copper perhaps. Or perhaps we will want a worker from gems city before another settler.

I was getting the fifth settler out of the capital T74 with suitable forests chopped and roads built under the settler so that it could get to the desert hill in just two turns. Settling there T77 syncs with the whip of another settler in Stone City. So that is an option to consider because it keeps the gold tile working more turns.