SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

I'm happy if E is best, I must have misinterpreted the original 1a plan which I thought could not finish the granary without the chop on T64 and would have had more than 1/2 in food bin when the granary finished with the delayed chop unless we worked non-ideal tiles.

The new pdf somewhat mysteriously seems to get 4 more hammers after the whip than the original pdf. 1 comes from working the cows instead of the cornfarm, but I'm not sure where the 3 other hammers come from unless there was an error with the original pdf.

I see "Washington option 1a for pigs" and "Washington options 1a and 2 with two capital chops" agreeing with each other out to T64, and the difference after that is working the cows.

 

[bcool]

That explains it, in options 1a with 2 capital chops used cornfarm and washington 1a for pigs uses the cows the turn of the chop and the turn after. I just miscalculated from the original pdf and thought we couldn't finish the granary that way.

The debate T73 whipped GLH or T75 slow build GLH can wait.

I'm good with option E for proceeding with Goodyear. And I think that was the last unresolved issue with the PPP to T60.

GLH slow build T75 or whipped T73 discussion in spoiler

Spoiler :

1) Emperor maintenance costs will matter on such a large map with no world wrap. The Great Lighthouse will be very important to keep our economy from stalling.

Finishing it T75 actually helps our commerce since we can work the gold mine. It is true we lose 2 turns of +2 trade routes but that is more than offset by working the goldmine. Building T75 introduces a small amount of risk that we lose the GLH, so the point about maintenance costs does apply in that case. But I think the risk is worth an earlier settler from Stone City and the better hammer and commerce production.

2) We get double Great person points.

Yes we lose out on 8 by building 2 turns later. These points only have value if we want Stone City to produce another great person after the great spy. I would think we want great scientists or great artists. Another great spy is at least as good as a great scientist on this map and a great merchant isn't the end of the world, so these 8 probably would be useful to us.

3) Our economy won't die when we whip ourselves silly.

No, but settling more cities faster especially with the GLH is to our advantage I would assume. Especially since we are going to have the capital build the pyramids.

4) We can't just walk over and grab a wonder we want 50 tiles away.

True, this goes to how much we risk delaying the GLH to T75. I don't think the risk is that high compared to a T73.

5) Failing on the Great Lighthouse will be a direct 1 to 1 hammer to gold conversion.

Sure this is one of the negatives of failing on this wonder compared to some others. But again the risk of failure at T75 is not significantly greater than failure at T73.

6) Stone City can be building a Settler again on T75 I think.

I don't know exactly how much faster we can get a settler out of stone city if we whip vs. not whipping, but I would imagine we could do it 3 turns faster at least. Plus we would have 10 fewer whip-unhappiness-turns in stone city.

We were happy risking the GLH at T75 with pottery first instead of sailing. The advantages of slow building the GLH are comparable to the advantages we thought we would get going with pottery first instead of sailing. I'm only suggesting that we take the same risk that we thought we were taking by going pottery first to get similar gains.

 

[mabraham]

That explains it, in options 1a with 2 capital chops used cornfarm and washington 1a for pigs uses the cows the turn of the chop and the turn after. I just miscalculated from the original pdf and thought we couldn't finish the granary that way.

The debate T73 whipped GLH or T75 slow build GLH can wait.

I'm good with option E for proceeding with Goodyear. And I think that was the last unresolved issue with the PPP to T60.

Agreed.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Slow-building T75 is possible - one worker does three chops and the other one does one. Then we could start a settler at size 6 - but our sixth tile is only the oasis. After whipping T73, we are back at size 5 on T76. GLH returns 66 per turn at this point, but this is offset by working more of the gold mine, and getting a faster settler from the capital if we don't whip.

I'm OK with the risk associated with pushing GLH out to T75. It does get faster post-GLH settler for the silver site. In the medium term I expect SC will stay at size 4 or higher working the four resource tiles, and the river Gmine will be worked mostly by the capital. Either approach works OK with this, but not whipping GLH caters slightly better to it.

If we want to gamble a bit and slow play The Great Lighthouse, we will need a garrison unit for Stone City around T73 or so. With 12 production in Stone City, can we naturally complete it on T75?

I still favor getting it done early as possible. Yes, losing 45 is not efficient, but Stone City can grow back very fast with all that food, a lighthouse, and a granary.

If it can be naturally constructed on T75, and you guys don't want to risk getting a Great Merchant as our first Great Person, then I'd be ok with a later TGL.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The debate T73 whipped GLH or T75 slow build GLH can wait.

I'm good with option E for proceeding with Goodyear. And I think that was the last unresolved issue with the PPP to T60.

I agree TGL debate can wait. Option E sounds fine.

Did we decide if granary was being whipped on T59 or T60 in Stone City?

 

[mabraham]

If we want to gamble a bit and slow play The Great Lighthouse, we will need a garrison unit for Stone City around T73 or so. With 12 production in Stone City, can we naturally complete it on T75?

I was envisaging delaying the final Pforest chop so that the last few turns at size 6 can work the Pforest.

I agree TGL debate can wait. Option E sounds fine.

Did we decide if granary was being whipped on T59 or T60 in Stone City?

My SC plans (see #889) want to whip the SC granary on T59, and I think that idea came from your hammers-focussed-granary report that led to the faster GLH reports.

 

[frogdude]

Ok. Sounds like we're pretty much settled on the issues for this turnset. Plan E as per mabraham post #898

I'll start playing within the next few hours (as soon as my guests leave and I can concentrate). I'll be on gmail so if anyone wants to make themselves available for advice, private message me your details.
Of course, if anything major comes up, I'll stop and ask the forum.

 

[frogdude]

Turn notes

T52 Moved Columbus to safety-check for barbs. Moved settler to inhibit barb spawn. Moved Burke West. Hopefully the two AI units will head west - turned on "Show friendly moves"

T53 No luck, the AI units headed east. We went west anyway, coz there will be some forests to bunker in on the far side, and the fact that the AIs came through makes it fairly safe for a few turns.

T54 Looks like we found the northern spoke, but we're not going to go up it. AI contacts and wizard finding are more important.

T55 Columbus finds evidence of wheel land to our west, but it will be hard to border-pop out to it. Malcolm heads north. AI scouts are helping fog bust our spoke while we re-shuffle our fog busters Burke finds a fresh water lake in the hub??

Spoiler :

T56 Still dancing with the AI scouts.

T57 Faced with the need to consider walking onto bare ice, we looked at the distribution of barb units at T57 and T60 in the test game. All barbs were warriors both times. So we think we should accept the risk for increased data. We survived so far.

T58 Burke keeps hugging the coast for safety heading west. Got some forest to duck into next.

T59 Eeeeeep! A barb archer pins Burke against the coast. Nothing to do but run into a forest and hope for the best

Spoiler :

Ouch! He finds a tag team archer. Sorry captain

Spoiler :

T60 We lost the first fight at 64% We need to train our warriors better. North witches no longer have a worst enemy.

 

[frogdude]

Upload notes

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1920 BC to 1600 BC:


Turn 53, 1880 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 54, 1840 BC: GemsCity has been founded.

Turn 56, 1760 BC: The borders of New York have expanded!

Turn 59, 1640 BC: New York can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 10ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Washington will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Good Witch of the South adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) (3.40)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Combat Odds: 36.0%
Turn 59, 1640 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior) is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 59, 1640 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Dorothy's Burke (Washington) (Warrior)!
Turn 59, 1640 BC: While defending, your Burke (Washington) was destroyed by a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 60, 1600 BC: Washington has grown to size 4.
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Washington can hurry Granary for 2⇴ with 25ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 60, 1600 BC: Wicked Witch of the North/Good Witch of the North has no worst enemy.

I'll put up some more pictures in the morning.

Btw, am I allowed to load up the save games I made of the real game in order to take pictures etc?

 

[bcool]

bummer about Burke, everything else went to plan?

yes you can load up real saves and take screenshots.

And I don't have the save, I'm going to have to pass my turnset.

Sun Tzu Wu... on deck
mabraham... in the hole
Tachywaxon... waiting
Walter_Wolf... waiting
Kaitzilla... waiting
frogdude... waiting
bcool... pass (hopefully will play next turn after shulec, but depending on the pace I will have to pass again)
shulec... UP NOW

 

[frogdude]

bummer about Burke, everything else went to plan?

yes you can load up real saves and take screenshots.

Yes, everything else went off without a hitch. I'm blaming mabraham's luck. He was watching me playing so it was definitely his fault.

 

[mabraham]

Yes, everything else went off without a hitch. I'm blaming mabraham's luck. He was watching me playing so it was definitely his fault.

:yeahthat: If I get to play any more, I'll try for an all-kill of our warriors!

 

[Kaitzilla]

Yes, everything else went off without a hitch. I'm blaming mabraham's luck. He was watching me playing so it was definitely his fault.

Nice work Frogdude.


Burke was pretty doomed trying to cross that no man's land. If he had waited a long time to try and get Woodsman II, an axe probly would have drilled him, or an archer on the ice. On every test I tried he died. Nice find on that huge fresh water lake. I'll check some wheel maps to see if such a lake is natural.

AI adopting Organized Religion might give us a clue on personality if one of the 6 has it as their Favorite Civic.

Our next scouting options are to settle a city down the spoke and send out a chariot/axeman, or to wait for alphabet and just send a spy and scout it for sure.

If a culture bridge to north witches seems hard, looks like mapmaker is nudging the warmongers to attack south

 

[bcool]

The Great Spy might be able to find the western witches if we want to delay the infiltration mission.

Burke died just before he could find out if we could cut through that hub with a canal made with cities and forts

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hmm, could use the great spy too. That would be very interesting if we could build a chain of canals on this map.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Since we seem to be coming up with 90% of people's PPP content with large debates, we could probably speed things up by having debates on preferred worker turns and city builds before the rough draft PPP is posted.

That way the turnset player could pick and choose unit actions and city choices from the distilled wisdom to make their PPP instead of their PPP sparking a debate and being modified multiple times.

 

[bcool]

A lot of the MM for the next turnset has been debated quite a bit.
If there is another delay in getting the PPP out, someone could summarize the plans proposed thus far. And add more if they so chose, but only if they summarize the existing plans first.

I think one comprehensive document for the turnset is important, and if everyone agrees with most of it, then it can reduce the debate. If it comes out quickly (w/i 24 hours of the got it message) I think things will move at an acceptable pace even with debate on the PPP. Of course summaries to help the active player can never hurt.

With that said I probably won't have time now (or the next 4-9 days) to do much summarizing or knowledgeable debating.

 

[shulec]

Well done Frogdude.

Can please play up to the beginning of turn 60 on the test game to replicate our moves. It appears that the real game was not played the same as the last test you posted up to T60.

I want us using the most accurate test game for setting up a PPP.

 

[shulec]

I think I have the test save matched up as well as I can get it.

 

[shulec]

Here it is:

Spoiler :

Cities

Stone City
T60 Pyramids
T61 Switch to Lighthouse, VERY IMPORTANT
T62 Lighthouse (Work oasis, wet rice, crabs)
T63 Lighthouse (Work wet rice, crabs, stone, gold)
T64 Lighthouse (Work Rice, crab, stone, ghill)
T65 Whip lighthouse complete with +10 chop and +20 chop, (Work wet rice, crabs)
T66 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, oasis)
T67 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, oasis, gold)
T68-69 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill)
T70 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T72 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T73 Whip The Great Lighthouse

Washington
60-63 Settler
63 whip Settler, work corn, sheep
64-66 Granary, swap corn for cows T64
67-69 Warrior
70-71 Pyramids 2 turns only to grow to pop 5
72 Settler

Gems City
Finish work boat=> Exploration
Granary
Work Wheat Farm, Gems, Deer as improvements available.

GP Farm
T66 Found City, build WB until Mysticism.
T69 Stop WB, start monument

Workers

Eiffel
T60-61 Mine Gold
T62-65 Move to forest north of stone city and chop
T66-69 Move to forest 1NW of stone city and chop
T70 Pre-Chop tile 1N of Spices

Fritz
T60-61 Mine Gold
T62-65 Move to forest 2W of stone city and chop
T66-69 Move to forest 2S of stone city and chop
T70 Pre-Chop tile 3E of Washington

Karl
T60-T62 Farm wheat
T63 Finish road 1E of wheat
T64-68 Move to and build camp
T69-70 Move to and build mine on PH south of Gems City

Goodyear
T60 finish chop
T61 road
T62 road (for settler produced and ready to move T64)
T63-64 Finish road 1N1E of gems.
T65-66 Road gems
T67-70 Mine PH NW of Washington (so 5th pop has a tile to work)

Research
T61 0% Research toward Hunting
T62-63 Hunting
T64-65 0% Research toward Mysticism
T66-68 Mysticism
T69-70 0% Research toward Writing

Warriors
Columbus
T64 Head to Stone City for Garrison duty.
Other warriors continue fog busting.

Diplomacy
Accept open border agreements

Stopping points
Meet the Wizard
Meet last AI
GLH built
Pyramids built
Alphabet trades available
Any crazy occurances

Here is the test game I played up to the beginning of turn 73: