SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[Walter_Wolf]

As promised (better ever than never), here are some facts I remember from watching the movie.

A quote from the SGOTM 14 opening thread:

There are good witches, and wicked witches out there, so watch out.

Dorothy arrived to Oz when a twister picked her house and it fell onto the wicked witch from the East. It killed her, so her sister, the wicked witch from the West got pissed with the poor girl.
The welcome to the Oz "landia" gave the good witch from the North. Idk if this will matter in the game, and if neilmeister put the start in the East, but that's the deal with the witches in the movie. Dorothy also killed (by accident) the witch from the west later.
The wizard from Oz is a fake. It was a guy from Kansas who got to the "overtherainbowlandia" with the baloon, and pretended to be a wizard. The other characters were friendly and more or less helpfull in the girl's task to get back home.
At the end of the story, it ends up to be just a dream. Dorothy wakes up in her bed after the storm has passed.

Nice movie/story

 

[shulec]

Since Dorthy is Charismatic, we can delay Monuments for the culture pop they can provide, but they are relatively cheap for the Happy face they provide, so we will want to build one in each city, or possibly build Stonehenge to avoid building many Monuments.

STW, can you clarify why you are suggesting that we can delay Monuments for the culture pop?


I just noticed in the game setup that there are 8 AI, so we may be relatively crowded. I think this improves our chances for multiple successful early rushes and worker steals.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Delaying Monuments:

STW, can you clarify why you are suggesting that we can delay Monuments for the culture pop?

Yes, it covers situations when other things generate the culture needed to pop borders (such as founding a religion in a city when there's not yet a state religion), or rushing a Great Wonder in a new city via a Great Engineer, etc. I was simply responding to Kaitzilla's ideas that generating such non-Monument culture obviates the need to build Monuments. I'm just saying that we will still want to build a Monument later for the +1 Happy face when we approach Happiness cap in a city.

8 AIs effect on Domination Victory:

I just noticed in the game setup that there are 8 AI, so we may be relatively crowded. I think this improves our chances for multiple successful early rushes and worker steals.

Also, notice that this helps the earlier (military) phase of a Domination Victory by potentially providing 33% [(8 - 6) / 6] more cities to capture than if there were just six AI Civs. This is also good, because our Leader (Dorthy/Lincoln) is not Imperialistic (+50% H for Settlers), because with more captured cities it reduces the number of cities that must be founded, thus the number of Settlers that must be build in the latter (settler spam) phase. Unfortunately, military operations need to be done with haste at Normal speed, so I'm not sure its that much of an advantage to have 8 AIs rather than 6 AIs with respect to Domination Victory. It may be nicer to have more open areas to found cities near the end than pay for more maintenance of captured cities throughout our Civ's lifespan.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

I just noticed in the game setup that there are 8 AI, so we may be relatively crowded. I think this improves our chances for multiple successful early rushes and worker steals.

I expect to be crowded, and think this means that more than ever we need to be crisp with the rush or REX plan, according to what we find in the first 15-20 turns.

 

[bcool]

We need to make 2 important decisions.

1) Where are we going to move the warrior?

Are we all agreed that we want to move the warrior, save the game and post it here (since we can't upload on the first turn)?

That way we can debate the settling options with more knowledge. I think the save is going up in about an hour or so.

We should probably wait at least 12 hours for input from everyone about the warrior's 1st scouting move.

We discussed 2 useful options 1SE and 1NE for the warrior. I believe mabarham discussed why he thought 1SE was better in this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10763832&postcount=71

2) After the warrior is moved we need to decide what to do with the settler.

Front running options
Settle 1W,
move to Settle 2E, or
move 1SE, 1S to explore more with the settler.

This decision of course depends on what we find with the warrior. Once we get the screen shot/save after moving the warrior, I want everyone's input on where we should move/settle the settler.

Okay I'm going to sleep soon, so I hope we have stuff to discuss tomorrow morning

 

[Manco Capac]

The starting file is out!!!! Yes I was lurking for a long time here.

Hey bcool, can I open it then take info without moving anything, then close the save without calling this cheating...?
Taking some stats for example...and uploading images here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I mean if I download the file, take some pics and then close it, the file is like new, right?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

True Starting Save

Direct Link to our starting save.

Just hover the cursor over the link to make double sure I didn't mis-link.

I also put this linkie because the table is so clustered, so I hope this avoid erratic hand behaviours...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Do we really need to rush the first moves? It is Normal Speed after all...and the first decisions are critical!

 

[mabraham]

The starting file is out!!!! Yes I was lurking for a long time here.

Hey bcool, can I open it then take info without moving anything, then close the save without calling this cheating...?
Taking some stats for example...and uploading images here.

Yep. Opening, looking around, and doing only reversible things is fine. Don't even bother saving afterwards - everyone can do it, so whether you save afterwards does not matter. Some people like to pause the game while doing that, which is fine if you don't accidentally queue actions and then unpause. Pause, look and quit is very safe, however.

I'm happy to do the screenshot capturing now if you'd prefer.

The link looks correct.

 

[Manco Capac]

Yep. Opening, looking around, and doing only reversible things is fine. Don't even bother saving afterwards - everyone can do it, so whether you save afterwards does not matter. Some people like to pause the game while doing that, which is fine if you don't accidentally queue actions and then unpause. Pause, look and quit is very safe, however.

I'm happy to do the screenshot capturing now if you'd prefer.

The link looks correct.

I'm fine to do it (I want to be useful)...but...because nothing is top secret right now, I can upload on imageshack...

 

[mabraham]

I'm fine to do it (I want to be useful)...but...because nothing is top secret right now, I can upload on imageshack...

OK. Remember, no flying camera allowed.

Later, prefer to upload things here, unless the server gives trouble like it did last SGOTM.

 

[Manco Capac]

OK. Remember, no flying camera allowed.

Later, prefer to upload things here, unless the server gives trouble like it did last SGOTM.

I know, I know. I'm even going to change my ini file to disable that feature.

The sad thing is I won't be able to fog-gaze (looking the fog border) at the south well without that feature.

 

[Manco Capac]

Here's a bunch of screenshots for easier looking if one doesn't want to open the save.

EDIT:
Oopsie, I think I will retake screenshots with bare map option. Far easier to scrutinize... Done!

Spoiler :

 

[mabraham]

The sad thing is I won't be able to fog-gaze (looking the fog border) at the south well without that feature.

Yes, that is a pain.

I have looked around and found some interesting things.

• there are no AI contacts
• we have only four rivals, despite 9 players existing (so 4 players are on our team, but we have not met them - clearly the good witches; also the wizard is probably not a player)
• no rivals seem to have masses of tech or units on the demographics
• no rivals have been settled
• there are no wonders built (particularly, no AP)
• no surprise fresh-water tiles
• no hills that I could determine
• our warrior is named Toto (of course)

Fog gazing suggested to me

• NE of crab is coast
• N of crab is plains
• NW of crab is plains forest hill
• N of oasis is plains
• NW of oasis is plains forest
• N of spices is grassland forest
• N of sheep is grassland
• W of sheep is desert
• SW of sheep is desert
• 3W of settler is plains forest
• 3W1S of settler is grassland
• W of cow is plains forest
• S of cow is grassland
• SE of cow is plains
• 2S of corn is grassland
• S of desert hill is grassland
• SE of desert hills is land of some sort
• E of desert hill is coast

The lower right corner of the official starting screenshot has a weird shadow that I thought was consistent with a forest 3SE of the settler, but I cannot reproduce that shadow on my machine. Perhaps someone with a high-level graphics card can try looking for it?

So

• scouting NE will reveal only two land tiles, and not reveal any land tiles in the BFC for settling 2E.
• settling 1W will only pick up two possible sites for resources, one of which is a desert
• settling S-SE will include at least one boring plains tile currently fogged
• same for settling E-NE

 

[Manco Capac]

our warrior is named Toto (of course)

Oh, that is one thing I didn't notice.

So if we have four AI's on our side (good witches), does their lands count towards ours?

And we got Archery...that is weird...

 

[mabraham]

And we got Archery...that is weird...

Hmm I missed that. Emperor AIs start with archers and Archery, so that is actually consistent with being teamed with AIs...

 

[frogdude]

• we have only four rivals, despite 9 players existing (so 4 players are on our team, but we have not met them - clearly the good witches; also the wizard is probably not a player)

I've tried messing around with the worldbuilder (including hacking away at the file directly), but I can't work out a way to setup anything comparable to this.
Anytime I set up a team, everything is shared between them, including any revealed tiles available to anybody on the team. I can't work out a way to setup a team that you don't have contact with your teammates.

It then finally dawned on me what the '4' rivals means.
Number of rivals is the number of opposing teams, not the number of opposing players

So whilst a 5v1v1v1v1 may be possible where we're in the '5' and somehow contact is prevented with teammates. I unfortunately think that a 1v2v2v2v2 is more likely (or some other combination of 4 enemies that adds up to 8. And that still leaves us in the dark as to who or what the wizard is.
Archery may have been given to us as part of a way to even the score.

On a side-note, I notice large discrepancies between the rivals soldier counts: from 13000 to 22000. Anyone good at reading between the demographic lines want to hazard guesses?

 

[frogdude]

We need to make 2 important decisions.

1) Where are we going to move the warrior?

We discussed 2 useful options 1SE and 1NE for the warrior. I believe mabarham discussed why he thought 1SE was better in this post http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10763832&postcount=71

I feel that although NE explores a whole bunch more tiles, the SE explore reveals the tile S of the desert hill that I feel is much more important and could be crucial to the settle West or South decision. We still get to see the same relevant water squares for the 2E settle option.
It gives up on the north-eastern settle options, but the amount of stuff we'd have to find off a single warrior move makes it unlikely. that we'd want to take those.

 

[shulec]

I recommend that the first warrior move be NE. I feel settling to the south to be too risky with a low likelihood of a big payoff.

 

[shulec]

If I had designed this game and wanted to make it interesting, I would set up the teams as follows:

Boudica/Sitting Bull
Catherine/Hammurabi
Hatty/Alexander
Isabella/Mansa Musa

These teams can all be more difficult to rush earlier. They all include a "witch".

 

[mabraham]

I've tried messing around with the worldbuilder (including hacking away at the file directly), but I can't work out a way to setup anything comparable to this.
Anytime I set up a team, everything is shared between them, including any revealed tiles available to anybody on the team. I can't work out a way to setup a team that you don't have contact with your teammates.

It then finally dawned on me what the '4' rivals means.
Number of rivals is the number of opposing teams, not the number of opposing players

So whilst a 5v1v1v1v1 may be possible where we're in the '5' and somehow contact is prevented with teammates. I unfortunately think that a 1v2v2v2v2 is more likely (or some other combination of 4 enemies that adds up to 8. And that still leaves us in the dark as to who or what the wizard is.
Archery may have been given to us as part of a way to even the score.

Hmm. Good exploration. Perhaps time will have to tell, there. The demographics screen lists ranks up to 9 - perhaps scenarios with and without teammates might show some differences here?

On a side-note, I notice large discrepancies between the rivals soldier counts: from 13000 to 22000. Anyone good at reading between the demographic lines want to hazard guesses?

Various techs count for soldiers here, including Mining (and maybe Wheel?). You can observe the same kind of variation in the test game you posted, so other than inferring the identities from who should have Mining, the data is inconclusive.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Woot, map is out today!
Good work with all the screenshots and analysis.


Starting warrior has 2 xp already? If so then
On the downside, 68% dom limit, 8% more than I was expecting with 8 AI


As to where to move the warrior and where to settle first, I'd like the capital to be 1W still. 13 forests, 3 hills, plains cow, lots of food, and fresh water for almost every BFC tile at the beginning is no small potatoes. I don't really care which way the warrior moves first, as long as it ultimately doesn't die to an animal early starting around 3200BC.




I am not familiar with AI teamed opponents. Do they have a permanent alliance with each other? Does war with one mean war with both?
If they immediately share techs, then they won't hold back monopolies as much.

The coast tile 1E of the desert hill means a nice coastal city can be set up 1S of the desert hill eventually if our starting capital isn't placed around there first.

A worker steal might be counterproductive if taking one declares war on 2 civs at once. Is their power rating added together when deciding war/peace? This isn't a conventional game!

Starting archery is very interesting. They are a much stronger unit than warriors. Neil must really wish us to not perish early.

If there are two continents, this is going to be a long game. If the Wizard is surrounded by mountains and can only be assulted with nukes/paratroopers, it will be even longer.