SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

I unfortunately think that a 1v2v2v2v2 is more likely (or some other combination of 4 enemies that adds up to 8.

That seems fair and logical. The thing I fear then is if we worker steal, we end up at war with two nations at once...so Archery was given to avoid player death early.

Indeed, good guesses, frogdude.

Then, let's forget diplomatic victory...:undecide:
 
I prefer to move the warrior 1SE as the knowledge gained has the possibility of changing our settling location as mabraham has described. (assesses most of the water tiles availible the 2E site and gives a land tile for both the 2E and for settling to the south somewhere)

Nice investigations guys.

I would assume based on the theme and frogdude research that we are 1 vs. team of 3 (lion, tinman, scarecrow) team of 2 (good witches), team of 2 (wicked witches), wizard.

I would bet that the lion, tinman, and scarecrow are all relatively close to us. And the witches are probably roughly north/south (good) east/west (evil).

I am rather scared that we have archery and warrior with 2xp already. Stealing a worker from the lion/tinman/scarecrow team (if one exists) would be game threatening I imagine without some archer support.

I've never played against AI teams before, but I assume they work like permanent alliances. So they tech the same thing at the same time, go to war together. I don't know how diplomacy works, do they all have individual opinions? I would assume so. But do they vote together for diplo actions?
Espionage vs. a team might be strange. I know if you are in a PA your espionage costs go up. And your research costs go up but you are working towards the same tech at the same time.
 
Do we really need to rush the first moves? It is Normal Speed after all...and the first decisions are critical!

We are only debating the warrior's first move, which I thought we had discussed at some length already. I thought we could get this settled so we could then make the settler decision at which point we would wait quite a while to explore what we might do after that.
 
I notice large discrepancies between the rivals soldier counts: from 13000 to 22000. Anyone good at reading between the demographic lines want to hazard guesses?

Could this be the unique units giving different soliders count?
If everyone starts with archers, maybe bowmans and skirmishers give different solider count?
are there any more UU which replace archers?
 
We are only debating the warrior's first move, which I thought we had discussed at some length already. I thought we could get this settled so we could then make the settler decision at which point we would wait quite a while to explore what we might do after that.

I am totally agreeing to you regarding warrior (Toto) move. The part in blue is what I expected. :)
 
My vote goes for the warrior move SE because I don't really want to lose two turns for a goody in the northern tiles of the crabs. Moreover, usually, don't the usual mapscript avoid cluster of resources? For example we won't meet situations with two pigs clusters (except cases of capital). Of course, the map designer may have tweaked the map.
 
...once we've moved the settler SE-S, next turn we could settle there, or one further S/SE/E/SW(?), depending what we learn (think about gold on hills in the distance...) That land could well be better mass-cottage country, and our second city (say) 1S of the spice has some food and the potential to be a big hammers site. Settling the capital 1W can also be a big hammers site with this hypothetical southern site available for our second or third city, but there's rather more synergy to be had from having our palace where our commerce improvements/buildings will exist, than having our palace where the hammers improvements/buildings exist (until/if we use Bureaucracy). If we're in a crowded early scenario, then catering for heavy city specialization is probably a good thing.

I did a play test of moving the settler SE-S, then settling 1S again and compared it with a game settling 1W. In each case I contrived to settle on copper, build some warriors, two workers, two settlers and get out a barracks, an axeman and start a few granaries. Settling 1W was much better than settling to the south, when the latter did not find any new resources.
 
Worker Farming

I ran some tests and came to the conclusion that, unless we raised a stack of strong soldiers early, the power rate of the team crush ours. Even in the case one steals at once one worker to both individuals of a team and kill some scouts, they won't give in.

Therefore, worker stealing with abuse of CF must be forbidden. Attacking a team of three members (as bcool suggested) is also too overwhelming.

What's remaining is worker farming with a woodsman II soldier, preferably a warrior like Toto who has already acquired 2 XP's. Those XP's are enabled the next turn (yeah, I will stop behaving like a child and find my answers myself :p:huh:) and I am torn between two choices : if we promote right away Toto to woodsman I for better defensive odds against possible lions, panthers and lethal bears or we keep that promotions for a faster healing after a defensive win.

Usually, I would suggest to attack a scout on the field (unforested or not hilly tile and no river crossing) right away with a non-agressive warrior for 2 XP's on the spot at very secure odds (slightly over 99%), but dying because of panther sneak attack without appropriate defense is non-negligible. Furthermore, even without team play, we needs war technologies and building a couple of warriors to raise our power rating and then frighten the AI to readily accept at least a CF (A refusal of a peace treaty does not mean the same for a CF). Being in team play, killing scouts is forbidden unless already in war, which will occur for a long period if we decide to steal a worker.

Putting that useless stuff aside, the moment Toto reach the werewolf status (woodsman II promo), we can expect multiple worker stealing even in continual war state.
If the corresponding tech for improvement is acquired, the AI will readily start to improve food first. Even at the beginning of the game, the AI works higher food base unimproved tiles by default (corrections come later on turn 2 as for expansive leaders).
So, if Neil was enough generous to put food resources in the second culture ring, we are mostly safe to steal repetitively under war state. Of course, do not fortify next to the food tile afterwards, the worker will never come under war. The best of to fortify on a hill (forested is even better) and take a forested route to steal once again the next worker. Be careful of roads, so make a check sometimes. The role of the hill is to have an easy peek of the surroundings, the worker, and being two tiles away from AI capital, we do some fogbusting.

Spoiler :



Hills/forest routes are not the only option as one can move back and forth constantly to refresh information of the next worker arrival.

Spoiler :



Note this road is innocuous as rivers impede the archer retaliation (before construction).

And there is also the case the worker is working a hilly tile, so taking a peek is easy.
Note that finding a strategic resource means we must focus all the woodsman II moves around that dangerous tile.

Spoiler :


Stealing a worker improving a food tiles are in general not the best thing to do, but sometimes the capital's BFC has nothing else and we might fear to lose the opportunity to steal workforce. Stealing the earlier, the stronger the effect. Letting the AI's worker lives too long and she/he will begin to train stuff we don't want to see like archers.
The best is stealing a worker after she/he improve food tiles because this will speed up the next workers and settlers. Hammer-wise tiles must be pillaged if possible.

Two aspects we must fear : Random Personalities and Team Play.
Random personalities is only shuffling CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml values (I think) and
the thing a woodsman II warrior fears the most early is a archer retaliation on higher difficulties. This possibility of retaliation comes with AI unit courage. With random personalities, we don't know at all if the target will retaliate or not. So, I think avoiding attacking a worker in the first ring (even if the warrior lands on a forested tile) when there are three archers of more
in the city is safe. I even saw horrendous cases the AI retaliated me with only two frigging archers and I was on the winning side with odds.

The other factor we must fear is the possibility of AI teaming; if their teaming is complementary technologically. A Mansa Musa with and HC is horrendous, bringing both to possess knowledge of Wheel, Agriculture, Mysticism and Mining.
So it is like playing slightly boosted Immortal difficulty.

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Settler Capture Exploit: Do we agree to such trick?


Worker stealing may be something widely known, but settler capture with woodsman II warrior is an underground knowledge I wouldn't call it extremely useful in this particular game as we want the AI to found cities for us for a faster domination. But there are cases where we do not want the AI found that particular city because we know it will hurt us more than help us. For example, settling really near a known strat. resource or even on hill with naturally strong defenders (looking at you MM and SB).

Usually, there are easier means to avoid the AI to found such city by simply occupying the tile by whatever unit in war state. Escorts seem to have simply a defensive value even though it can wipe out without striking a blow the annoying defender. Usually, the AI goes for blue circle locations, so if someone is a pro about it, let us know. If the blue location is occupied, the Settler and its escorts will search another location until the occupied tile is free. To annoy further the AI, you even can move to and fro between an adjacent tile and the blue circle tile to freeze the AI into a sisyphean stroll.

Anyways, the settler capture abuse comes along BTS exclusively and the behaviour itself is simply the settler quitting its escorts by itself and then becomes defenseless.
Of course, the settler is usually faster than a woodsman II warrior, but a good forest pattern may help us to stunt the settler flee and the woodsman II may then catch up. Where the settler is fleeing at? The closest city to protect himself. His behavior is similar to a worker.

Here is an example of what is the settler capture.

Spoiler :





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I know some of the stuff I just discussed are already known (or obvious for some)
for many but checking everyone has the same knowledge equalizes people in our team. Plus SGOTM is like civ schooling. ;)
 
Unfortunately, all these thinkings were rather done before the ugly discovery of team playing, which makes worker stealing a bit less shiny.

Anyways, another variable I wanted to study is frequency of Worker First according to leader habits (relating to train unit probs, peaceweights, etc.), but experimentally, it is a failing method with a handful of results and if I was code-reader, the results would be more credible.

Anyways,
my conclusions are .... Nothing.

First, some facts I gathered:

  • Bonus tiles around don't really affect in a determinist way AI choice for a worker first build. I have seen juicy wet corn starts and the AI (having Agriculture) used its 10 :hammers: initial bonus for a frigging Archer.
  • The kind of tile AI works first (like the AI goes for a unimproved flat pig tile over a grass forest) doesn't affect Worker First tendencies.
  • For a given generated map, even with New Random Seeds On, the preferred first build is always the same (either Worker, Archer or WB).
    In consequence, no team will be favoured over others because of luck from Worker first, unless Warrior scouting deviates strongly between teams, leading to different civs.
  • I thought regenerating the map would even keep favoured first build choice: nope.
    The map and BFC rules (e.g. adding a forested deer changes AI behaviour).

I tried to observe if all warmongers (almost )necessarily went Archers first and peacemongers went for worker first: I ended up with nothing concrete.

Examples on 20 attempts of regenerated maps:

Ragnar: 1/20 = 5 % Worker First
Montezuma: 18/20 = 90 % WF
Alexander : 12/20 = 60 % WF
Gengis Khan: 14/20 = 70 % WF
Hatshesup: 15/20 = 75 % WF
Gandhi: 17/20 = 85 % WF


Thus, except Raggy seemingly ignoring WF, nothing concrete can be concluded.

I know random personalities messes that little research because we don't even know how to unveil the true personality of the leader, but I somehow wanted to create some characteristics to destroy the mask of leaders almost at the same level as refusing a demand without penalty = Gandhi.

Anyways, what will follows may be a bit more useful if we meet early a scout.
The attachment below is an incomplete tables of worker time of completion for expansive or not leaders if they went for WF (Worker First).
Some expansive cases may be forgotten. Sea tiles first as working tiles are not considered. WB cases are ignored.

With the help of this table, maybe, we will be able to follow the logic and itinararies of its first worker turn by turn.

The table has as results the turn in regards to the player where the worker is completed but still in the capital. (The turn where we found our city is called turn 0 :blush::blush::blush:).
 

Attachments

If we observe we won't finish early, perhaps, we might consider that trick to suck money from AI's, on emperor and higher, it can be the Pactolus. But be warned, we need to trade lots of resources to do so, making the trick a double-edge sword.
Note that it won't slow down much their technological speed in later part of the game because the AI's will make up with building research.


Subsidies and Aggressive Trading Practices by Hans Lemurson.
 
I would assume based on the theme and frogdude research that we are 1 vs. team of 3 (lion, tinman, scarecrow) team of 2 (good witches), team of 2 (wicked witches), wizard.

I would bet bcool is right in this assessment.

I think Kaitzilla's recommendation of playing through these game settings to get the feel for what we may be able to expect is a great idea. I have made two games on fractal settings that may give a feel for what we may see in our game.

I have made two different games. One for BTS 3.19 and one for BAT 3.0. They both have different starts that the SGOTM game.

EDIT! I changed the BAT save. I made some land bridges that I think will help in testing worker stealing. Note that world builder is accessible in both saves.
 

Attachments

Nice research Tachy on the trading (we should double check that hasn't been banned). If it hasn't been I don't know why I haven't been using it :)

Love the enthusiasm on the worker builds research. And nice summary of the worker and settler stealing strategies.

Thanks to shulec for making those test games. I hope to play with those a bit tonight.
 
I made a 1v3v2v2v1 game with our theoretical 'teams' in place.

So one possibility is that we're one lonesome player, with a bunch of superpower teams around, having to assassinate another lonesome player, and then post a win of some description. :sniper:
Time for some practice!

Domination/Conquest would likely mean having to go up at some point against at least the 2's if not the 3's. I'm not sure I like our odds of getting the sniper done and then a peaceful settlerspam style domination.
I have no idea what the teams aspect does to Diplomatic wins.


I have no objection for the resource trading thing. Seems reasonable to me. After all, the AI happily extorts ridiculous amounts of cash from us when they're selling resources for cash.
Still, they should've trained the AI to cancel deals better.


What's the vote tally on the SE warrior move? Are we all in favour, or is anyone still advocating another option?
 

Attachments

Not everyone has expressed an opinion on the warrior move, but no one currently holds any other opinion other than moving 1SE.

So when you are ready Sun Tzu Wu, you can move the warrior 1SE save the game and upload either screenshots and/or the save game here. (Since you can't upload a 4000 BC save to the regular site).
 
Not everyone has expressed an opinion on the warrior move, but no one currently holds any other opinion other than moving 1SE.

So when you are ready Sun Tzu Wu, you can move the warrior 1SE save the game and upload either screenshots and/or the save game here. (Since you can't upload a 4000 BC save to the regular site).

Sounds good.
 
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