SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Once the Capital is founded, I would be interested in knowing the % of the dom with the 7 land tiles under our control.

Good point. Also, screenshots of the Demographics screen every turn (and saved games every turn should there be something we realise later that should have been noticed) are worth while. We can start guessing who the AIs are from the way that information changes.

I agree on the ppp

EDIT: maybe you would see more tiles revealed with warrior SE, S on the marble hill ?

You would see further south, but assuming SE-SW and then either S or SW, the number of extra tiles seen from the desert hill is low, and unlikely to influence a settling or war decision. The point is that we'll want to swing the warrior west at some stage, probably to check out oppos and city sites SW and W of our capital. While we can get a free diagonal poke east while we're getting far enough south to scout the BFC of the possible marble site, we don't want to finish the southern trek at our easternmost latitude. Also, moving along diagonals achieves the best scouting when terrain is neutral.

 

[frogdude]

EDIT: maybe you would see more tiles revealed with warrior SE, S on the marble hill ?

Because of the tiles that will be auto-explored when the borders pop, I think we need to be another row southwards before starting the western trek.

I was envisaging a search pattern something like in the screenshot below, which starts with the SE-S.
Obviously hills/forest in the fog will affect the latter parts of the search pattern. Step '8' in particular will be better used on another SW step if we get to pick up the square 'east of charlemagne scout' from a hill.

EDIT: The screenshot has had the settled city border pop to get an idea of what gets explored 'for free'.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Looks good to me. It's great you thought of the border pop when planning it.
I suggested moving on the marble hill 'cause if we reveal the far east tiles, we don't need to go back scouting later, but focus on scouting the west. In the early moves it probably makes sense going west sooner to reveal one more western (aproximately) three-tile group though.

 

[mabraham]

You would see further south, but assuming SE-SW and then either S or SW, the number of extra tiles seen from the desert hill is low, and unlikely to influence a settling or war decision.

Actually, I take this back.

EDIT: maybe you would see more tiles revealed with warrior SE, S on the marble hill ?

Because of the tiles that will be auto-explored when the borders pop, I think we need to be another row southwards before starting the western trek.

...

EDIT: The screenshot has had the settled city border pop to get an idea of what gets explored 'for free'.

I now think you're both right. The purple track on my attached screenshot is not as effective at scouting a prospective city site at the purple "2" as frogdude's red track. The purple and red "missing" texts indicate tiles that could be left fogged if we do not encounter visibility-enhancing terrain, and I think the fact that the prospective city site at the purple "2" would have BFC tiles left fogged if we used the purple track is important enough to drive this scouting decision. The orange line indicates the limit of our visibility from city culture, if no terrain enhances it.

Note that the next border pop is at T50, by which stage we need to have already decided our opening few settler decisions.

Thoughts, people?

Spoiler :

 

[shulec]

I am convinced! Nice work guys.

 

[bcool]

I'm on board with the change to SE then S to the marble hill.

I think frogdude's screenshot for the cultural border pop is a bit misleading since there isn't a hill south of the western lake. I think that hill gives him more visibility than we would have in the real game. This is what mabraham was indicating with the orange line.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Oops, forgot about the border pop auto explore. Yes, the red path does look better.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Hey, mabraham

where did that pdf from post 15 originate from?
do you have a spreadsheet for that or something?
could you attach it here?

 

[frogdude]

I'm on board with the change to SE then S to the marble hill.

I think frogdude's screenshot for the cultural border pop is a bit misleading since there isn't a hill south of the western lake. I think that hill gives him more visibility than we would have in the real game. This is what mabraham was indicating with the orange line.

You are indeed correct. I based it off one of the test games without realising that it was incorrect. So some of the tiles off the southern strip of explored stuff on the screenshots would be fogged, but I think is irrelevant to the first couple of moves of the path.
Probably means that the red '6' will have to be a northwest move, not a southwest one.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I will execute the turns through the end of t2 and report back shortly.

I decided that its a bad habit to pause/end a turn set with units unmoved (with the exception of units we do not want to move), so I will pause at the of end of t2 rather than beginning of t3.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

Hey, mabraham

where did that pdf from post 15 originate from?
do you have a spreadsheet for that or something?
could you attach it here?

Yes, I do have an elaborate simulator spreadsheet that Gypsy Kings used in the last SGOTM. It's particularly good for decisions like "should we improve the corn first or the sheep first?" because it is easy to see how things will look in x turns time. I will share it eventually, but I'm not yet confident it's up to date for this SGOTM - I make no claims of completeness, but many of the game mechanics are accurate! I'll have to check the documentation is current, too.

 

[shulec]

I've tried the (3,2,2,1) test game and here is what I found.

AI's judgement on what a tech is worth seems a bit off. Got construction, calendar, and 100 gold for currency.

I agree with this observation. The AI seems to evaluate a trade as the player trading the tech to two players, and coveting it more than if it was one tech traded to one player. I would doubt that a tech's value is doubled, but my best example was a trade sending Compass to the tri-AI team for CoL, Monarchy and 130 gold. I believe all AI had both techs, but this is still more value than standard. I tend to see the AI value Monarchy much higher than usual in trades.

The AI members of a team can have different attitudes, I saw one cautious and one annoyed. I would expect this to be significant with individual diplomacy like open borders, and war bribes. I would expect and average for UN and AP votes. I have no evidence to support this last supposition.

In one test game, it seems that the Mansa, Hammurabi, and Gilgamesh group took on Tokugawa's personality. They all refused open borders until we had a shared religion, +4 trade and +1 for peace. I didn't notice if I had made it to friendly with anyone once open borders were offered.

It looks like civs retain their favorite civic. This can be easily conformed in the BAT mod. I am playing the BTS 3.19 unmodded and Catherine asked me to switch to HR.

 

[Manco Capac]

We have a Consensus for Change in Toto's Path: SE -> S onto Marble DH

Good use of the term. Just logged in and finished reading the posts, and moving towards desert hill marble looks fine. The red path is an optimal one, but I won't put my opinion yet on this knowing some specific factor possibly can change the predicted trajectory.

Anyways, I just arrived too late.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

After settling 1W at the end of turn 0, we see Grassland Gems 3W and Incense Desert 2 NW.

We now have to make a decision for Toto. Move 1-S onto the Marble DH as planned, or move SW, because we can tell that 1 SW of Marble is a Lake and Toto can't walk on water. By going SW now we reach the western area 1 turn sooner, but leave at least one Shore plot unrevealed and possibly more.

The attached files are the currently revealed map area and the F8 Victory tab.

Our 7 plots contribute 0.53% of the World's Land Area of 1321 plots.

Please let me know your preferences for Toto's move for turn 2.

After making that move, I plan to upload the save file.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[shulec]

Is the plot south of marble a hill? If so, will we be able to see the plot 2S1E of the marble if we move 1S to the marble?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Is the plot south of marble a hill? If so, will we be able to see the plot 2S1E of the marble if we move 1S to the marble?

Yes, I'm certain that the plot 1S of Marble DH is also a Hill, probably also DH.

Yes, moving onto the Marble DH will allow seeing the plot 2S+1E; that is the Shore plot I'm referring to that we would definitely not reveal by moving SW instead of S onto Marble. I'm now convinced that is the only plot that would be revealed by going S now rather than SW, but it will cost us a turn and I'm not sure its worth the cost.

My preference is SW, because I have little hope that the Shore 2S+1E of Marble has seafood, so why bother using up 1t to find out. If there is seafood there, we'd almost have to settle on Marble to work it. (Same reason as failing to move the settler to the PHF NW of Washington rather than settling Washington. The commerce of a Gems Mine in the capital would have been nice.)

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

Looks like Toto is going inside a small peninsula if marble DH, then green hill are the next directions.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Looks like Toto is going inside a small peninsula if marble DH, then green hill are the next directions.

Is the hill S of Marble a Grassland Hill? Maybe I need more powerful (spy) glasses.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

Is the hill S of Marble a Grassland Hill? Maybe I need more powerful (spy) glasses.

Sun Tzu Wu

But it is greenish around the hill in fog. Whatever, we will learn in a couple of minutes.

Good thing the gems don't have jungle next to it; imagine how gamebreaking for an unlucky team if jungle spread onto that precious tile. If there were jungles, I would definitely put a unit on the gems...

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Ah.. Sun Tzu. It may be with limited uses, but can you post the demographics too?

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Domination percentage is 68%, so 68% of 1321 = 898.28 is the precise tipping point for Land Domination, but I'm not sure that 898 would suffice, so I'm saying 899.

Sun Tzu Wu