SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[Dhoomstriker]

The one thing I wanted to consider is whether we gain anything with Calendar now, vs after Compass. Our workers are pretty occupied atm, and I haven't actually thought of plantations this early.

Well, if our Workers have the turns to spare (which they probably don't), then Calendar Resources are NICE to have... BUT...
our focus right now is on the short term of getting a military force to the front lines, so I think that Road-building + Mine-building have to take priority.

Good point about MoM, though. Maybe we should just take it now for that reason...

If it weren't for that possibility, we could safely delay taking Calendar, but it's all too realistic for one or both AI teams to suddenly refuse to trade the tech with us (OR with any other AI team), meaning that it is POSSIBLE that our only window of opportunity to get that tech is the current turn.

I just checked and we can get it for Aest from MM. Monte wants both Lit and HBR. Aest is obviously a good deal. Edit: I think we should just take that. Should've just checked before. It's the best deal we'll get.

Yeah, Aesthetics is a good choice... let that AI team compete for the Aesthetics World Wonders.

Heck, you could even consider gifting around Aesthetics to the other teams after getting Calendar in trade. The biggest concern would be trading a tech to someone else's Worst Enemy.

So, after you make the Aesthetics <-> Calendar trade with Mansa + Shaka, then look to see (F4 -> GLANCE) if Genghis + Elizabeth are the Worst Enemies of anyone else... if they are not the worst enemies of anyone else, then you can gift them Aesthetics. Similarly, if Asoka and Ragnar are not the Worst Enemies of anyone else, you can gift them Aesthetics.


Alternatively, we COULD hang onto that tech, but ideally, we're looking to see the following benefits from gifting around Aesthetics:
a) Multiple AI teams investing Hammers in Wonders. If only 1 or 2 teams invest their Hammers this way, then the gains for the AIs getting said Wonders are overall larger, since less AI Hammers total went into the Wonders while one team will still benefit from it... it's like if you can get 5 out of 6 AIs in the early game competing for Stonehenge... your game will become a lot easier than if only 1 AI commits to building it
AND
b) Multiple AI teams chasing after Music, which they will be FAR more likely to do after learning the "gateway" tech of Aesthetics, a tech that many AIs often avoid
AND
c) Reducing the possibility of the Mansa + Shaka team trading away Aesthetics in exchange for Monarchy, which would be quite possible and also quite damaging to us


The "You have Traded with our Worst Enemy" penalties would suck, but incurring them might even be worth the benefits of a), b), and c), so we might want to gift around Aesthetics even if doing so will permanently mess up our relationships with some of the AI teams.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

How close are we to needing Military Police units in Cities? For example, are we soon going to need someone in Ivory City?

If yes, how are we going to handle that situation? Are we going to have to use up some Axemen to act as Military Police units? Are we going to break up our Maginot line and replace it with a stronger defender but then have 3 Military Police units to move around? I'm not sure that I like either option, but it's better to garrison an Axeman than to have Unhappy citizens. Maybe the idea is that Ivory City CAN sustain a higher population without a defender and will deal with the situation by working more of the Hills squares that are currently being Mined?

 

[babybluepants]

I don't think it's an issue anywhere before we get our first actual units out to the Maginot line. The warriors wills step back, after the first axe gets there, as there are WE to follow quickly. Afterwards, we get more Calendar happy and some cities might never need MP.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Sounds good. Then probably the only decision factor is whether or not to gift Aesthetics... if we won't upset any AI teams, then I'd say gift it away (after getting Calendar in trade, of course). If we will make enemies... then I'm kind of on the fence, but am leaning toward gifting Aesthetics to the Ragnar + Asoka team, so that they'll hopefully focus more on Wonder-building and so that we break up the possibility of Ragnar + Asoka trading away Monarchy and getting Aesthetics in return anyway.

Another thought is that if the Genghis + Elizabeth team is someone's Worst Enemy, we could, after getting Calendar in trade, trade them Aesthetics for Monotheism (but not Meditation), so as to reduce the "traded with our worst enemy" impact considerably... it's 3 times as potent when giving a gift compared to making a trade, plus we'd be subtracting out the value of receiving Monotheism and might only upset another team by -1 or -2 instead of the full -4 penalty.

Ultimately, though, it's a minor decision, so don't worry about it too much and just make a call on the matter.

 

[Mitchum]

Nice work, bbp. I say take the Calendar <-> Aesthetics trade now.

Hopefully you're able to continue playing per your PPP war buildup plan. Dhoom is away from Civ, I'm slammed and everyone else is MIA at the moment... Or should that be MII (Missing In Inaction).

EDIT: I failed to see that there was another page and missed the last 4 posts when typing my reply. I agree with gifting Aesthetics around after getting Calendar in trade.

 

[babybluepants]

I'll definitely take that trade.

Not sure about gifting it away. The one tech I'd still like in trade is MC, and don't wanna encourage them to tech Music. We need someone else to research it by the time we complete Compass. I guess that means they're either researching it already, or they won't make it, so maybe the Aesthetics gift doesn't matter...

Also, there's some WE hate going around. Gifting to Asoka/Ragnar should be a hit with Monte/Gandhi, who are our main trade partners.

Anyway, I'll have think about the gift thing...

 

[babybluepants]

No one noticed the little red fists in the screenshots?
I just opened the save, made the Calendar trade and spotted it. I'll shut it down and look through previous saves. I thought there wasn't any 1-2t before...
Edit: just checked. It's as of this turn.

 

[babybluepants]

They're Cautious with us (0,+1) and Gandhi (-3,-2), Annoyed with Monte (-3,-2). Monte/Gandhi is the WE, and also a neighbour.
Edit: I also denied Genghis a demand last turn.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Not sure about gifting it away. The one tech I'd still like in trade is MC, and don't wanna encourage them to tech Music. We need someone else to research it by the time we complete Compass.

Ahhh, okay, I see what you're saying.

I guess that means they're either researching it already, or they won't make it, so maybe the Aesthetics gift doesn't matter...

We have roughly how many turns to Compass? 5? If about that, then yeah, you're probably right... either they have started on Metal Casting or else will learn it too late, so opening up Music shouldn't affect them having Metal Casting in trade for us in time... unless we have some other tech to "delay" the time that we learn Metal Casting, but I don't think that there is such a tech (even other techs that we might want like Engineering or Optics will require Metal Casting -> Machinery first).

Also, there's some WE hate going around. Gifting to Asoka/Ragnar should be a hit with Monte/Gandhi, who are our main trade partners.

Hmmm, we might be alright without gifting then.

Let's see... if Monte/Gandhi hate Asoka/Ragnar, then Asoka/Ragnar will not trade with Monte/Gandhi, since an AI team that has a Worst Enemy team won't trade with said team.

It would help to see the F4 -> GLANCE screen... but, you could also just look at it and determine things yourself... here are some thoughts
1. If one team is the Worst Enemy of another team, then they won't trade with each other, as far as I am aware (I'm not 100% positive but I think that this effect is one of the few effects of a Worst Enemy)

2. If Team A does not trade with Team B unless Team A is Pleased or higher with Team B, then we don't have to worry about then trading with each other. I forget what the situation is like, but going by your F4 -> TECHS screen, I'm thinking that Asoka/Ragnar won't trade with another team unless Asoka/Ragnar have an average of being Pleased toward the other team (1 Friendly relationship for every Cautious relationship out of the four relationship variables).

3. We probably don't care TOO much about an AI-AI trade of Aesthetics <-> Code of Laws, so the only real worry is Aesthetics <-> Monarchy, which is about equal value so they would make that trade IF they are eligible to trade with each other and if the team that has Aesthetics is a trade-happy team.

4. Of the two teams that don't have Aesthetics, only one of them has Monarchy: Asoka/Ragnar, so that's the only team that we really care about potentially giving Aesthetics to at the moment, but if we give it to them, we probably want to give it to Elizabeth/Genghis, otherwise Elizabeth/Genghis will probably just get it in trade from SOMEBODY... i.e. either trade/gift to both other teams or to neither.


Okay, so what are we really worried about here?
A] Mansa/Shaka trading Aesthetics to Asoka/Ragnar for Monarchy. That's about it for now, right?

So, I guess if Asoka/Ragnar have an average attitude toward Mansa/Shaka that is Cautious or below, then we can just hang onto Aesthetics for now, as Asoka/Ragnar aren't going to be trading with anyone unless Asoka/Ragnar have an average of a Pleased attitude toward another team.

Thus, hopefully, Asoka/Ragnar are not on average Pleased or higher toward Mansa/Shaka and then we can just forget about the gifting idea for now (although you may want to monitor the tech situation from turn to turn just to see which team learns what when--BUFFY won't tell you... I tend to screenshot the F4 -> TECHS screen every turn around this stage of the game just so that I can spot the changes easily.

No one noticed the little red fists in the screenshots? ...
Edit: just checked. It's as of this turn.

I noticed but if we didn't just turn down a Demand we could be okay:

It is interesting that the AIs of the north are planning a war... do we have any "refused a Demand" penalties with either of these AIs? If yes, then we're likely their war target.

If we didn't refuse anything, then our relative Power level could be a factor... we're not too bad off, with 0.7 Power, but I'm not sure if that 30% Power greater than us turns out to be 30% + 30% due to two AIs having it... certainly being the lone player probably makes us have a relatively lower Power level and thus makes us look like a better target.

The nice part about an AI declaring war on us is that IF WE SEE THEIR LANDING PARTY IN TIME, we can potentially sink a good portion of their fleet. Of course, if we don't see it in time, then they could amphibiously assault and raze an empty or a Warrior-defended City (I've had AIs amphibiously raze Warrior-defended Cities).

Edit: I also denied Genghis a demand last turn.

Errr, then the AIs from the North are almost certainly planning on going for us. One option is to just shift our plan now to attacking them first, but the proximity of the AIs from the east really makes us want to hit the AIs from the east. Going after those from the north would mean no chance of Longbowmen, while we risk going up a few when attacking the AIs from the east.


Of course, hitting the AIs from the east around the time that they are just getting Longbowmen online is a good time to hit them, but we risk being backstabbed. I guess that Work Boat of ours + the Barb Galley going toward the AIs of the north may prove to be crucial, both in leading a Barb Galley to said AIs and potentially giving us advance warning of a fleet sailing our direction, depending upon where our Work Boat "hides out" from the Barb Galley.

It should be a few turns before we'll need to decide where our Work Boat will "hide out" inside of an AI City anyway.

 

[babybluepants]

I noticed...

with 0.7 Power, but I'm not sure if that 30% Power greater than us turns out to be 30% + 30% due to two AIs having it...

I think it stacks, so wouldn't it be 0.35 Power?

The nice part about an AI declaring war on us is that IF WE SEE THEIR LANDING PARTY IN TIME, we can potentially sink a good portion of their fleet. Of course, if we don't see it in time, then they could amphibiously assault and raze an empty or a Warrior-defended City (I've had AIs amphibiously raze Warrior-defended Cities).

In this case it would presumably be Ivory.

Errr, then the AIs from the North are almost certainly planning on going for us. One option is to just shift our plan now to attacking them first, but the proximity of the AIs from the east really makes us want to hit the AIs from the east.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. We have about 15t to Astro right now, and probably about the same before we're ready to send any kind of stack towards Asoka. Their war buildup has to take as long, I would think. It's somewhat tricky timing.

If we parked a trireme at 3W+2N of Ivory, would that block any potential landing party from England? How did that work last game? I don't exactly remember. I'm wondering what the minimal investment against an attack would be. We can't have two stacks on a T+20 timeline, so we can either defend in a minimal fashion, or switch war targets, IMO.

Ultimately, sinking their fleet with Galleons would be great. We don't really wanna have to face all of their units from the war buildup.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think it stacks, so wouldn't it be 0.35 Power?

Yeah, however the math works, we're probably within the "attackable threshold."

In this case it would presumably be Ivory.

Presumably we won't need any Triremes (which we can't yet build), right? They may have great odds against Galleys, especially for their Hammer cost, but without circumnavigation, they will be so limited in their movement points as to be almost useless... that said, one parked within our borders at a possible attack vector might help... but only really 1NW of Panama... I don't see anywhere where such a Trireme could deter an attack on Ivory City.

So, we'll probably just have to do our best to spot an incoming AI attack before it arrives, then potentially whip Galleys/Galleons/Triremes in time to save ourselves.

Do we want to consider building another Scout that we can drop off on the hub to our west (Elizabeth's hub, I think)? I.e. Using the same path that our Work Boat is taking to lure away the Barb Galley, we could send a Scout on a Galley to be dropped off up there which can move back and forth near the eastern edge of Elizabeth's hub to hopefully spot any incoming Galley stack before it arrives.

How many Cities does the AI to our immediate west (Elizabeth?) have on the eastern coast, i.e. that could potentially be used to launch an attack that we likely won't see until almost too late? If there are several Cities there, maybe we will need 2 Scouts, although having 2 additional Scouts out of our borders like that will cost us roughly 3 Gold per turn (Unit Costs and Unit Supply Costs).

If we parked a trireme at 3W+2N of Ivory, would that block any potential landing party from England? How did that work last game? I don't exactly remember. I'm wondering what the minimal investment against an attack would be. We can't have two stacks on a T+20 timeline, so we can either defend in a minimal fashion, or switch war targets, IMO.

What worked last time was that the only path to us could be blocked... think about it this way... if we wait for an AI to declare war on us, then they can sail right past our boats, but if they declare war on us, they will either have to fight our boats or sail around our boats. Last game we were blocking all of the potential paths to get to us... here... we won't have sufficient boats to do so.

For example, if we park a Trireme somewhere, an attacking AI could just sail around it and still drop off troops--either next to our City or directly inside of our City.

Looking at your screenshot of Ivory City...

we see that we could potentially park 2 boats to the north-west of Ivory in a couple of locations to block a direct attack on Ivory City, but only if we declare war on the AI team from the north ourselves. Note that by declaring war, we'll also lose our Foreign Trade Routes with any AIs to the west of there that our Work Boat explorer has uncovered.

Without a war declaration, let's say that we were to put 2 boats such that one was NW + NW of Ivory City and one was NW + N. An AI stack could walk on top of the NW + NW boat, "move attack" to the square NW of Ivory City, and thereby end up on the opposite side of our boats, directly adjacent to Ivory City.

So, a boat blockade is not really feasible unless we first declare war, but declaring war first will be costly in terms of losing out on the gains of The Great Lighthouse. Paying a bit of Gold per turn to field a Scout or two at the AIs from the north will be a lot cheaper of an early warning system, both in terms of overall Commerce (we pay more but get far more in terms of Foreign Trade Routes) and in terms of overall Hammers (Scouts are cheaper than boats).

Ultimately, sinking their fleet with Galleons would be great. We don't really wanna have to face all of their units from the war buildup.

I think that we're already focusing all of our espionage on the AI team from the north, which is good (a fact which is hopefully preventing them from seeing OUR Cities) but won't be good enough to beat their doubled Espionage Points for seeing THEIR Cities. Having info in advance is key, so I think that we need to switch gears slightly and slot in 1 to 2 Scouts (2 if there are a lot of Cities on the eastern coast of the AIs from the north) and shuttle said Scout or Scouts over to the AIs from the north.

Under ideal circumstances, we would find the 1 City in which each AI is building up its navy and keep a Scout near said two Cities. Likely, we won't have time to find those AND keep an eye out for boats that have already set sail in the meantime, so we'll just have to keep an eye out for incoming boats. With 2 Scouts, we could have one monitoring the eastern coast, while another one gets dropped off on the north-eastern coast and then slowly heads west along the northern edge of continent belonging to the AIs from the north, buying us a bit of additional advance warning each turn that it moves westward.

 

[babybluepants]

Ok, I agree we could use better scouting. It's a bit of a shame to invest in a scout and spend galley turns going there, but we're stretched for units otherwise.

The options for the galley build are:
1. Galley from Marble needs 10t from now to get to where the barb galley currently is, and another 6t to get to London.
2. If we built a galley in Pigs next, it wouldn't be much faster if at all. We need to keep running Sci there for our research goals.
3. Ivory could pump one out on T+4.5, but I'd rather be building WE's there.
4. Panama can switch to galley right now, and get it to the barb galley spot in 8.5t.

We could potentially build a scout in Pigs and a galley in Panama. That would get us to London in T+15. I think that's probably the best option right now.

Regardless of this, I'm sure we are the target and you agree. That means we'll probably be best off declaring ourselves when their units approach and blocking the path. We'll either need a trireme or a galleon or 2 to block. Galleons won't be in place for a while. It's about 15t to Astro + build + move. I would expect England to take 20t, but you never know. We can discuss this a bit later, too.

We can block the northern path with just one, placed 2N of the barb galley spot. That trireme could also sit where our WB currently is and get a 1t warning of DOW. Then we drop back to the block spot and DOW ourselves.

Southern path we can also block with one unit, located 3W of Panama. We can probably just be ready for a trireme whip in Panama and move out in 2t. We'll get some free scouting down there soon, as we move units out against the barb city. I wouldn't expect England to attack from there, but it's hard to say without better knowledge of its map location. We know that Nottingham and London are on the NW coast, but there are also no cities on the east coast and she could have ports SE where we don't see.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, would you prefer to have a Trireme that sits where our Work Boat currently is or a Galley + a Scout such that the Scout gives us more time to whip units that we won't otherwise build?

I'm not sure what the right answer is, but generally an AI needs time to build up an attack... but maybe they already had something prepared and decided to attack due to a low relationship value plus a low Power level rather than directly due to a refused demand? I.e. Maybe (it is highly doubtful, though) one of the AIs decided to attack because they already have a force prepared?


Hopefully, if there is any force that exists now that is going to start heading our way, our Work Boat will spot it... and if our Work Boat doesn't spot it, then we can probably safely assume that we have a number of turns before AIs build up forces.

I think that I'd still rather have Galley + Scout (maybe a 2nd Scout later--I'm really not sure how many Cities are on the eastern coast that we wouldn't see a naval build-up in, which is a factor that would determine whether or not a 2nd Scout would be of much use), so that a Scout could potentially locate and monitor the AI's City that they are amassing their fleet in.

The only risk is that "on the way" to finding said City, the AI launches their fleet and our Scout misses it, which is why we'd just send the Scout along the northern coastline and go with the hopeful thinking that an AI's navy will not be gathered in a City on their eastern coast, at least not before we can get a second Scout there to keep an eye on such a possibility.

We could potentially build a scout in Pigs and a galley in Panama.

I think that continuing to build War Elephants in Ivory City and building the Galley + Scout as you suggested works out. If we do get attacked unexpectedly, having a land-based unit near to Ivory City will be of immense help, and we'll hopefully have a nearby land-based unit if Ivory City keeps pumping out land-based units.


Do we know how many Cities, out of her 4 Cities, that Elizabeth definitely does not have on her eastern coast (i.e. to the south-west of our Work Boat)? If there are zero Cities on her eastern coast, we're in excellent shape, as our Work Boat will see any immediately-incoming navy and we'll also know that to the north-east of Ivory will be the only attack vector. If she has 1 or more Cities that are potentially on her east coast, we have a small risk of being in trouble, but hopefully our cultural borders will give us sufficient time to react to any potential threat by using the whip.

 

[babybluepants]

I decided to play forward to 50 BC.

Made one ridiculous mistake. We were supposed to finish the scout this turn, except I finished Compass IBT. Now we have 18/40h in a freakin' Explorer. I guess this is why we have careful PPPs and lots of feedback...

Our WB has taken the barb galley into England. I'll take it right into Nottingham and London and see if I can pillage some nets. I spotted one more city that's not on the south coast. We can't see the fourth city yet.

The barb city has 4 axes defending it, including one combat. I'll put together a plan for that later.

We can research MC in 7t @ 0% or 3t @ 100%. Gems will get its GP in 4t. Might be good to line those up. If that GP is a GS, we could just bulb Machinery-Optics-Astro right through. The last Washington GS still needs 8t, so that's our target date.

MM/Shaka got Currency in the meantime. No other new techs.

No time for screenshots right now. I'll have to do it tonight.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 225 BC to 50 BC:

Spoiler :

Turn 106, 225 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 106, 225 BC: Judaism has spread in Pigs City.
Turn 106, 225 BC: The borders of Marble City have expanded!
Turn 106, 225 BC: Wicked Witch of the South adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 107, 200 BC: Good Witch of the South adopts Organized Religion!
Turn 107, 200 BC: Ramakrishna (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 108, 175 BC: Ivory City celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 108, 175 BC: The Temple of Solomon has been built in a far away land!
Turn 108, 175 BC: Wicked Witch of the East adopts Hereditary Rule!

Turn 109, 150 BC: Aristotle (Great Scientist) has been born in Pigs City (Dorothy)!
Turn 109, 150 BC: Ivory City celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 111, 100 BC: Ivory City has grown to size 9.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Silver City has grown to size 4.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Silver City can hurry War Elephant for 2&#8692; with 21&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 17 turns.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Washington will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Gems City will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Pigs City will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 111, 100 BC: Wicked Witch of the North has founded Samarqand in a distant land.

Turn 112, 75 BC: Washington has grown to size 9.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Gems City has grown to size 6.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Pigs City has grown to size 7.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Stone City can hurry Catapult for 2&#8692; with 28&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 12 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Ivory City can hurry War Elephant for 2&#8692; with 47&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Panama City can hurry War Elephant for 2&#8692; with 18&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 12 turns.
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of Washington are about to expand.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Ivory City.
Turn 112, 75 BC: Silver City will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 112, 75 BC: You have discovered Compass!
Turn 112, 75 BC: The borders of Washington have expanded!
Turn 112, 75 BC: Wicked Witch of the South has founded Nongoma in a distant land.

Turn 113, 50 BC: Washington can hurry Catapult for 1&#8692; with 18&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Silver City has grown to size 5.
Turn 113, 50 BC: Good Witch of the South has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 113, 50 BC: The borders of Bridge City are about to expand.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

In regards to the Explorer... meh, it happens. I suppose that we could whip it if you wanted, so that we can get our Galley back into position reasonably soon. On the plus side, once we go to war, an Explorer could feasibly survive in enemy territory...

I spotted one more city that's not on the south coast. We can't see the fourth city yet.

Okay, that fact is very promising. If there is only possibly 1 City on England's eastern or southern coast, then we should see any newly-built Galleys that are built in other Cities sailing to said City should the "gathering point City" for Elizabeth's navy be that southern or eastern City.

We can research MC in 7t @ 0% or 3t @ 100%. Gems will get its GP in 4t. Might be good to line those up. If that GP is a GS, we could just bulb Machinery-Optics-Astro right through. The last Washington GS still needs 8t, so that's our target date.

Hmmmm... if we can get Astronomy in 4 turns, then is the goal to finish or whip any Galleys that we want to build BEFORE learning Astronomy? Or will we instead aim to have those Galleys auto-upgrade in the queue to Galleons (I think that Galleys upgrade this way but I'm not positive since I think that Galleys can potentially be upgraded into EITHER Galleons or Frigates, meaning that Galleys might stay around as build options... that situation is worth checking out in a quick test game just so that we know how learning Astronomy will affect Galleys in our queue) and only then whip/complete the Galleons, perhaps after having switched to Police State?

Actually, on that note, how soon are we going to switch into Police State? Is the idea to stay in Representation for a while?

One important factor is that once we switch Civics, we almost certainly WILL need a Military Police unit in each of our larger Cities, since we'll lose the boost to Happiness from running Representation.

MM/Shaka got Currency in the meantime. No other new techs.

If an AI team that has Currency also ends up with a large stack of Gold, I suppose that we should keep an eye out for it... I'm not sure that we'd sell a tech, but, for example, I seem to recall that MM/Shaka didn't have Code of Laws yet. Of course, we might also just want to save such a tradeable tech until after they are willing to trade Currency to us, but a large sum of Gold might just be worth it. Anyway, it's just another reason to keep an eye on the F4 -> TECHS screen more than anything.

 

[babybluepants]

Not sure about whipping the Explorer. I'm almost done mining Pigs hills, and we're growing onto them. I have to think through it a bit.

There are no small techs to sell that team. I wouldn't give up more expensive techs unless they had some pretty major wonder failure cash. Right now it's more like 40-60g.

Rep/PS:
This needs some calculation right now. I was having a hard time estimating research times previously and assumed we would slow tech Optics, because we can't count on the Gems GP being a GS. As it turns out, we might be slower to research Optics than we are getting to the last GS. Fingers crossed on the Gems GP. Rep/PS would happen either in 4t or 8-10t, depending on that. Anyway, we're hoping to complete Astro, switch to PS, capture the barb city and ideally line up some troops for Asoka in the next 10t. The last part of that might not quite happen. I'll have to plan it all out first. Now that I think about it, I may have rushed into these last few turns... Needs a proper plan for the next 20t.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I think that as long as you have excess Happiness, have a City that isn't too large (less than Size 10), have a Granary, and aren't building a Wonder, the general rule is that you can whip away a citizen that would work a Plains Hills square but you wouldn't whip away a citizen that is working a Grassland Hills square.

This general rule starts to break down as your Food surplus gets low (3 or less), but as long as we have more Food surplus than that, whipping away a citizen that would otherwise work a Plains Hills square should probably come out roughly even at a random whipping time and come out ahead at the ideal whipping time.


Yeah, I was thinking like if they had 400+ Gold then we'd consider trading for it.


If the Gems City's Great Person is a Great Merchant, what are we going to do with it again? Are we Lightbulbing something or trying to use it on a Trade Mission? I don't know where we'd get the Hammers from, but a Caravel could be something to consider building later if we do get a Great Merchant and want to set sail for a distant City.


It's going to be hard to maintain the testing game and it might not be worth maintaining it for complete accuracy (it would be good if you could at least get the Hammer and Food totals right, just to make your job easier and forget about Commerce), but even if you don't bother to maintain it, you can at least use it to check what sort of Unhappiness issues we might be facing at the time of switching from Representation to Police State. That factor should also be considered in the equation of when to switch Civics.


Well, let's say that we did get a Great Scientist in Gems City. Wouldn't we still try and generate a Great Scientist in the next City as well (Washington, was it?)? I.e. Even if you got a Great Scientist, you'd be considering switching out of Representation yet still having Scientists hired in at least one other City... so maybe we should aim to switch anyway?

Or was the thinking that if we couldn't get a Great Scientist from Gems City, we would self-tech Optics instead of Lightbulbing Optics, such that we'd want the extra Flasks from Representation-enhanced Scientists?

If we don't get a Great Scientist from Gems City, we might still consider switching to Police State after 4 turns anyway, then aiming to start our first war definitively without Galleons but with potentially another land unit or two thanks to Police State's bonus to Hammers.


Planning out 20 turns sounds ideal but also unrealistic, particularly when we have a low participation level. Planning out 4 turns sounds more realistic and it's probably at that time where we'll want to stop briefly anyway, to weigh the merits of Representation versus Police State. Thus, rather than burdening yourself with a 20-turn plan, probably just aim to put together a 4-turn plan.

 

[babybluepants]

We can capture the barb city in 6t. I did some testing, and 8xp seems pretty easy with the units involved.

Research:
We currently have 2 GS sitting. Gems is popping a roughly 50/50 GS/GM in 4t, and Washington a pure GS in 8t. We still need MC+Mach+Optics+Astro. With 4 GS we just bulb the last 3. With 3 GS we bulb Mach+Astro and slow tech Optics. We should be just about able to finish MC+Optics in 8t, but may run a bit low on cash with all the new unit maintenance. It also depends on the exact amount of cash we get from the barb capture. Worst case scenario, it will be 9t to Astro. We do have the option of selling Aest to MM or Shaka for cash, if it makes a difference.

The switch to PS can happen in 4t, if we're bulbing everything. The units for the barb city capture are built already, so there's no need to delay for that.

No idea what to do with a GM. Trade mission seems most appealing. I'll have to think about the caravel build in 4t, if we do pop one.

In Washington+Ivory+Pigs+Stone+Silver we can get approximately 35 units (something like 70% WE 30% Cat) in the next 20t, not accounting for PS. That's with HE also built. I still have to think about the logistics of getting transport for them in time. It should be easy, but I'd like limit the total number of ships to the bare minimum and use other cities for some unit whips, as well.

We haven't scouted India in a while. I'm not even sure where we're landing our troops. Should we maybe invest in a WB for scouting their coast? I could get one from Panama in 3t.

 

[babybluepants]

I think I will whip the explorer this turn, btw. It works out well with regrowth onto new mines. We've already wasted one galley turn with this, so I'd rather not waste another 2.

 

[babybluepants]

I'm also nixing the test game at this point, I think. Since no one else is around to use it and the game is getting more straightforward now, it's easier for me to just pre-calculate on paper.

Worth mentioning that Genghis and Liz got a small rise in the power graph over the last few turns, but not even as much as we did. I suspect it will take them some time to get ready. Also, Genghis should be the faster of the two, but he is much further away. There should be no need for a blocking trireme investment now, I don't think. I'd rather get a galleon for an extra 30h, so we can also use it for transport as an alternative. I'll just plan on having that whip available in 10-12t in case we need it.