Btw, our WB discovered a cluster of peaks between Mongolia and England. Scouting it may be a touch dangerous with the barb galley following, but it could also potentially be the Wizard. I'll play that by ear and just see how it goes.
SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
I'd take the Currency trade for sure. +1 TRs. Onlyu consider other gold trades after we see what everyone has to offer. Any reconnaissance should discover if Asoka's spoke is 2 or 3 tiles wide and if there are any cities there.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
If Liz isn't building galleys in her port we have nothing to worry about. (We have nothing to worry about anyway...)
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Thanks for doing the calculations, LC!
Hmmm, so it seems that for a Fort or a City, you must be adjacent to a body of water for either one to be of use. So, unless there is a Lake, a canal can thus only be two squares thick. And, of course, since a Fort must be within your Cultural Borders for a boat to enter it, we can't just plop down 2 Forts--we need a City and up to one Fort to form a canal.
That said, I'm a bit confused by the above numbers.
So, for example, if we attack and are successful, does that mean it is:
1 per successful attack + 2 per our unit attacked, live or die = 3 War Weariness?
If a Catapult attacks and retreats, does that mean it is:
2 per our unit attacked, live or die? Or does it not count?
Bombarding, at least, does NOT affect War Weariness.
The only unfortunate thing is that we probably have to land at Madurai in order to get the shot at the 3 XP battle. However, two battles of 2 XP and 1 XP are more surefire chances, so it's not the end of the world if we don't get an 8 XP unit from our initial fighting--we'll get such a unit soon enough and we'll have, on the grand scale of things, more chances to get such a unit if we attack with better odds with two War Elephants (aiming to get 7 XP each) and then having two chances in the future for winning a single battle to push us over the 8 XP target.
I'm fine with still going for the single 3 XP battle, but in the grand scheme of things, it's one of those "more risk for more payoff but a greater chance of losing multiple units in the process" type of situations.
Of course, the further important point to consider is that a stack of fully-loaded Galleons could make for an equally good scout and could also be avialable to immediately take advantage of any information about Asoka's troop distribution that they find out.
If we do scout ahead with an empty Galleon, we should map an Ocean-based path to Mansa that falls outside of Asoka's and Ragnar's Cultural Borders. It shouldn't be TOO hard to do so, although it may mean a tiny bit more exploration when finding a City so as to both see into the City and to get exploration in the Ocean surrounding that City's Cultural Borders.
That way, we can take advantage of Astronomy's ability to allow us to trade overseas, getting us Mansa's Trade Routes while Mansa won't get any from us in return (unless he somehow mapped out a coastal route of his own that we didn't notice).
For example, if we were to instead trade techs to Mansa/Shaka for Currency, such as trading away Compass, then we might see Mansa/Shaka immediately make a trade with Monte/Gandhi, which would suck.
So, while I'm not enthusiastic about AIs getting closer to Caravels, Monte/Gandhi will likely be the first there anyway (already knowing Metal Casting), so they would be the ideal team to trade Compass to, so that they stay the clear technological pack leader amongst AI Teams, thereby keeping AI-AI trades at a minimum.
Hmmm, so it seems that for a Fort or a City, you must be adjacent to a body of water for either one to be of use. So, unless there is a Lake, a canal can thus only be two squares thick. And, of course, since a Fort must be within your Cultural Borders for a boat to enter it, we can't just plop down 2 Forts--we need a City and up to one Fort to form a canal.
I think that BUFFY tells you the amount of War Weariness on the F4 -> GLANCE screen if you hover your mouse over top of the relationship between you and the relevant AI.LowtherCastle said:
That said, I'm a bit confused by the above numbers.
So, for example, if we attack and are successful, does that mean it is:
1 per successful attack + 2 per our unit attacked, live or die = 3 War Weariness?
If a Catapult attacks and retreats, does that mean it is:
2 per our unit attacked, live or die? Or does it not count?
Bombarding, at least, does NOT affect War Weariness.
Well, the thing to realise is that all is not lost if we don't win that battle. For one, the Archer might be unscratched, giving us an immediate second chance. Another more likely scenario is that our second War Elephant can just promote to Combat I and get 2 XP, then heal using his second promotion after winning, such that he is at 7 XP. If one of Asoka's units comes toward us, then we can either attack or defend with our 7 XP unit.LowtherCastle said:
The only unfortunate thing is that we probably have to land at Madurai in order to get the shot at the 3 XP battle. However, two battles of 2 XP and 1 XP are more surefire chances, so it's not the end of the world if we don't get an 8 XP unit from our initial fighting--we'll get such a unit soon enough and we'll have, on the grand scale of things, more chances to get such a unit if we attack with better odds with two War Elephants (aiming to get 7 XP each) and then having two chances in the future for winning a single battle to push us over the 8 XP target.
I'm fine with still going for the single 3 XP battle, but in the grand scheme of things, it's one of those "more risk for more payoff but a greater chance of losing multiple units in the process" type of situations.
Well, that news is great. The important corollary here is that an empty Galleon will not threaten AI Cities either, thus an empty Galleon could make for a useful scout if we have one.LowtherCastle said:
Of course, the further important point to consider is that a stack of fully-loaded Galleons could make for an equally good scout and could also be avialable to immediately take advantage of any information about Asoka's troop distribution that they find out.
If we do scout ahead with an empty Galleon, we should map an Ocean-based path to Mansa that falls outside of Asoka's and Ragnar's Cultural Borders. It shouldn't be TOO hard to do so, although it may mean a tiny bit more exploration when finding a City so as to both see into the City and to get exploration in the Ocean surrounding that City's Cultural Borders.
That way, we can take advantage of Astronomy's ability to allow us to trade overseas, getting us Mansa's Trade Routes while Mansa won't get any from us in return (unless he somehow mapped out a coastal route of his own that we didn't notice).
If you're replacing an Axeman with an Archer, then that's a good choice. If you're replacing a Warrior with an Archer, I'd rather that the Archer go and plop itself down in Ivory City.babybluepants said:
The good part about trading techs to the tech leaders (Monte/Gandhi) is that they are very unlikely to trade one tech for another... if they stay well ahead of the other AI Teams, we'll actually be reducing trading opportunities overall by giving them Compass. If we hang onto Compass, another team might learn Compass and thereby trade it to the Monte/Gandhi team for one of Monte/Gandhi's techs, such as Metal Casting, Code of Laws, etc.babybluepants said:
For example, if we were to instead trade techs to Mansa/Shaka for Currency, such as trading away Compass, then we might see Mansa/Shaka immediately make a trade with Monte/Gandhi, which would suck.
So, while I'm not enthusiastic about AIs getting closer to Caravels, Monte/Gandhi will likely be the first there anyway (already knowing Metal Casting), so they would be the ideal team to trade Compass to, so that they stay the clear technological pack leader amongst AI Teams, thereby keeping AI-AI trades at a minimum.
I'd almost be interested in waiting until he'll only trade us Monotheism with less than 50 Gold (be careful, though, we don't want to click on Meditation by accident, so this idea might not be worth the potential risk of mucking about in the interface until after we have Lightbulbed Astronomy). Anyway, I was thinking that we could then wait for 1 to 2 more turns after the turn that Mansa will give us Monotheism plus a bit of Gold and then make the trade, so as to give him minimal value for it, even if we only get 30 or 40 Gold out of the sale, while also increasing his WFYABTA count with the other AI teams. However, I wouldn't worry about this goofiness until after we have Lightbulbed Astronomy, just to avoid any possible misclicks on Meditation or on "what would you give us" and him inadvertently giving us Meditation via a misclick. This idea is not worth that level of risk to our Lightbulbing strategy so you can even completely ignore this idea of mine if you prefer, or else just wait until after having Lightbulbed Astronomy and check things out then.babybluepants said:
That's another good point... once we learn Currency, we'll open up other possible Gold trades... but we'll have to be VERY careful not to inadvertently set up possible AI-AI trades that will catapult some of the "medium tech level" AIs a few techs ahead within the span of a couple of turns.LowtherCastle said:
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
In other words, I agree with the Compass for Currency plus 110 Gold with Mansa/Shaka (oops) Monte/Gandhi, but I'm pretty hesitant about making any other trades unless an AI team is about to learn the tech anyway.
I.e. I might be okay with selling a tech for "fair value in Gold" but I'm not really interested in selling techs for Monotheism or for "excess value" to the AIs, as doing so really, really, really just risks us seeing some fast AI-AI trades... we might not care about too many of them, but we would care a lot about seeing Monarchy and/or Feudalism getting set up as a trading possibility due to imbalances between AI Teams' tech knowledge.
EDIT: We might even care a lot about techs that "don't matter" being traded around a lot, as the more trades that happen, the less tech options an AI team will have for self-teching and thus the greater chance that they'll self-tech nastier techs, like Machinery, Feudalism, Guilds, Gunpowder, etc.
I.e. I might be okay with selling a tech for "fair value in Gold" but I'm not really interested in selling techs for Monotheism or for "excess value" to the AIs, as doing so really, really, really just risks us seeing some fast AI-AI trades... we might not care about too many of them, but we would care a lot about seeing Monarchy and/or Feudalism getting set up as a trading possibility due to imbalances between AI Teams' tech knowledge.
EDIT: We might even care a lot about techs that "don't matter" being traded around a lot, as the more trades that happen, the less tech options an AI team will have for self-teching and thus the greater chance that they'll self-tech nastier techs, like Machinery, Feudalism, Guilds, Gunpowder, etc.
I made the currency trade. Here's the updated trade screen:
Mansa will give only Medi+Mono+45g for COL, but not Monarchy. I'm pretty sure they're teching it and they are also no one's WE. I'd make a Mono+50g trade. We might as well get something for COL. Nothing else seems very appealing.
Spoiler :
Mansa will give only Medi+Mono+45g for COL, but not Monarchy. I'm pretty sure they're teching it and they are also no one's WE. I'd make a Mono+50g trade. We might as well get something for COL. Nothing else seems very appealing.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Go for it.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Dhoom, attacked means we got attacked. Otherwise, we attacked the AI.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Ahhh, okay, that makes sense.
So, do units that retreat (Catapults, Trebuchets, some mounted units, etc) count as part of War Weariness or does a unit have to die on one side or the other for War Weariness to accumulate?
Some things to look at here are:babybluepants said:
a) If we trade away a tech, will it help said AI Team to do something that we don't want them to do faster?
b) If we trade away a tech, will we potentially be angering another AI Team due to a Worst Enemy relationship? Even if we're going to attack such a Team that will get potentially upset at the trade, it can still help to have a team not be completely Furious with you.
c) If we trade away a tech, could we potentially set up an AI-AI trading opportunity?
d) If we waited a bit longer, could we get more value out of the trade without giving up too much if less value were to become available?
Here are some answers for this trade:
a) Well, if we let Shaka and Mansa self-tech Code of Laws to completion, it will be longer before they start research on Feudalism. The longer that it takes for them to learn Feudalism, the longer it will take for other AI Teams to learn Feudalism, either due to:
i. Feudalism costing slightly more to research due to less other teams knowing it and thus causing other teams to delay selecting Feudalism as their next tech
AND
ii. Delaying the trading-around of Feudalism
So, unless there is a big gain from selling them the tech, I would be highly tempted to force them to fully self-tech it or else just sell it to them when it's roughly worth 50 or less Gold to them, such that they would have learned it in 1 turn anyway but also just took a WFYABTA hit for gaining a very marginal amount of value of a tech.
b) I'm not sure what the Worst Enemy statuses are, but every tech trade that we make has a possibility of angering another team needlessly. You may think that it might not matter, but we might want a later Resource trade or to Open Borders after warring (with a team other than the AIs from the east--or after killing off the "Toku" out of the AIs of the east don't forget that the other AI might want to Open Borders with us if we haven't angered him too much), we might reduce the chance of us being declared upon, and we might even open up the chance of bribing one AI team to attack another AI team that we weren't going to fight, thus distracting one team while we go in for the kill. There are lots of possibilities that we keep open if we don't anger other teams for piddly amounts like this trade.
c) Here, most AIs already know Code of Laws, and it's possible that the AIs from the east aren't trading with the AIs from the west. However, that situation may change as our team starts to become other teams' Worst Enemy, which could happen either due to our war declarations or us making piddly trades that anger another team. If they don't hate each other, then yes, we could open up a trading possibility as soon as Asoka/Ragnar learn a tech, such as Mansa/Shaka getting Horseback Riding in trade once Asoka/Rangar learn it, as just one example.
d) We might see Mansa's or Shaka's Gold amount go up or down. 50 Gold is not a lot, so if we missed out on it, no big deal. Wait another turn or two and that amount could go up to something more meaningful.
Even if it doesn't go up, we have absolutely no use for Monotheism. I'd rather not trade away the value of Monotheism such that it speeds up a team to learn Feudalism faster by the amount offered by Monotheism + 150 or so Gold (counting in the value of Meditation).
I'd say that we can safely wait 2 turns until after we Lightbulb Astronomy then revisit the issue--we won't get Monotheism but we'll delay their research by 2 turns and probably still be able to get 40+ Gold out of the sale, which is equally good since Monotheism has virtually no use to us and if we DO find a time when we need it, we can get it as part of a peace treaty deal (such as with Ragnar) when he begs us for mercy... i.e. even if we do end up needing it in the future, I'd rather that an AI team "realise" its gains in its research LATER in the game than now (research now is worth more than research later, etc).
So, I'd say forget further trades until after we have Lightbulbed Astronomy and even then I'd want to see the F4 -> GLANCE screen at the same time, so that we can have a full picture of what sort of animosity we might incur by making a trade.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Maybe Dhoom is right on the trades for now.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Over these last 2 turns, it seems that Mansa/Shaka learned Monarchy.
They likely self-teched it, but I suppose that there is the possibility that they traded with Gandhi/Monte for Currency. Likely, though, both teams self-teched the techs, unless there is a Friendly relationship between the teams, otherwise we should have seen Mansa/Shaka offering us the Currency trade when they had the monopoly on it.
It will be interesting to see what Gandhi/Monte research next, since regardless of whether they self-teched Currency or traded for a partially-researched Currency, they will just finished research on Currency and will need to pick a new tech next.
They likely self-teched it, but I suppose that there is the possibility that they traded with Gandhi/Monte for Currency. Likely, though, both teams self-teched the techs, unless there is a Friendly relationship between the teams, otherwise we should have seen Mansa/Shaka offering us the Currency trade when they had the monopoly on it.
It will be interesting to see what Gandhi/Monte research next, since regardless of whether they self-teched Currency or traded for a partially-researched Currency, they will just finished research on Currency and will need to pick a new tech next.
You really overthink tech trading, Dhoom. 
I feel like we had an identical debate last game.
I already said that Mansa and Shaka are no one's WE. Gandhi/Monte is Asoka/Ragnar's WE, btw.
No, there's no real value in Mono, other than maybe that it opens up a future Theo trade should we want that. I'm only thinking about it because LC asked for that this morning.
We can hold off on it for a turn or two, but when it gets to below Mono in value, I'd trade COL away. Why not, if they're gonna get it anyway? Because they might trade it to Asoka/Ragnar? Those two might be dead before they can give anything that valuable in trade.
50g may not sound like much, but it's 1.5t of 0% savings for us. Our cash flow is hurting here and I'd like to be able to upgrade our galleys asap.
Anyway, it's not really a big deal. If you don't want that kind of trade, I don't need to do it.
I feel like we had an identical debate last game.I already said that Mansa and Shaka are no one's WE. Gandhi/Monte is Asoka/Ragnar's WE, btw.
No, there's no real value in Mono, other than maybe that it opens up a future Theo trade should we want that. I'm only thinking about it because LC asked for that this morning.
We can hold off on it for a turn or two, but when it gets to below Mono in value, I'd trade COL away. Why not, if they're gonna get it anyway? Because they might trade it to Asoka/Ragnar? Those two might be dead before they can give anything that valuable in trade.
50g may not sound like much, but it's 1.5t of 0% savings for us. Our cash flow is hurting here and I'd like to be able to upgrade our galleys asap.
Anyway, it's not really a big deal. If you don't want that kind of trade, I don't need to do it.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Theology opens up Paper, meaning that if we took Theology, we would be unable Lightbulb Military Science.
Tech trading is am important factor of the game. Different people approach it different ways, but I subscribe to the mutineer school of tech trading's KeSS method: Keep 'em Super Stupid.
Any factor that can extend the life of Archers is a big win for us at this stage. An AI Team spending 2 additional turns on a random tech could mean the difference between a couple of easier City captures later on due to delaying their research on Feudalism and possibly the global research on Feudalism.
Normally, I love Monotheism for the Organized Religion Civic, but we're past the point of building Buildings and don't have much of a State Religion, either.
Whatever, maybe I over think things on the tech trading front but we all have our favourite parts of the game in which we pay attention to the relevant details.
Also, after we have finished Lightbulbing Astronomy, I'll feel far more comfortable about any time spent in the trading window where techs are involved, since then we won't care nearly as much if we accidentally take Meditation in trade (we still won't want to do so but doing so won't be so drastically game-destroying).
Tech trading is am important factor of the game. Different people approach it different ways, but I subscribe to the mutineer school of tech trading's KeSS method: Keep 'em Super Stupid.
Any factor that can extend the life of Archers is a big win for us at this stage. An AI Team spending 2 additional turns on a random tech could mean the difference between a couple of easier City captures later on due to delaying their research on Feudalism and possibly the global research on Feudalism.
Normally, I love Monotheism for the Organized Religion Civic, but we're past the point of building Buildings and don't have much of a State Religion, either.
Whatever, maybe I over think things on the tech trading front but we all have our favourite parts of the game in which we pay attention to the relevant details.
Also, after we have finished Lightbulbing Astronomy, I'll feel far more comfortable about any time spent in the trading window where techs are involved, since then we won't care nearly as much if we accidentally take Meditation in trade (we still won't want to do so but doing so won't be so drastically game-destroying).
Ok, I won't make that trade. It's not very good, on second thought, unless they get more cash somehow.
I don't think I'll get around to playing this tonight. Tmr it is.
I don't think I'll get around to playing this tonight. Tmr it is.
Not good, guys. The IBT after I landed, Madurai built a spear. I had decided not to bring a catapult, as well. There are 3 WE and 1 axe there. We now have 5 galleons and could land more troops in 2t, but I'm not sure how to get 8xp. I'll test some options. Thoughts?
I made one ridiculous error in Silver City and accidentally 3popped a WE with no hammers invested.
I didn't make any COL trade. Mansa and Shaka finished researching it 3t into the set. I contemplated taking 70g that turn, but thought I'd wait one more.
Otherwise, everything according to plan. I think we've discovered the Wizard and it's not where we thought. There are barb borders visible in the far SW. Our WB can move on ocean now, but I had it look at one of Mansa's cities first hoping for TR's.
I've uploaded.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 50 AD to 200 AD:
I made one ridiculous error in Silver City and accidentally 3popped a WE with no hammers invested.
I didn't make any COL trade. Mansa and Shaka finished researching it 3t into the set. I contemplated taking 70g that turn, but thought I'd wait one more.
Otherwise, everything according to plan. I think we've discovered the Wizard and it's not where we thought. There are barb borders visible in the far SW. Our WB can move on ocean now, but I had it look at one of Mansa's cities first hoping for TR's.
I've uploaded.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 50 AD to 200 AD:
Spoiler :
If we promote a WE to shock, we get 65% and 3xp against the spear. That's not bad.
Edit: If we win, we can promote the next one to Combat 1 and we'll have a couple of 80+ battles to capture. If we lose, we could still consider attacking with an unpromoted WE for 3xp, then finish off with 86% against the other archer and axe against spear. It's a bit tight for my liking, but it should work.
Edit2: If we can decide on this course of action, I could take those battles so we know what happens and hand off to LC. Otherwise, LC should just take over now. I figure I've now played about 45t in a row, which is pushing it.
Edit: If we win, we can promote the next one to Combat 1 and we'll have a couple of 80+ battles to capture. If we lose, we could still consider attacking with an unpromoted WE for 3xp, then finish off with 86% against the other archer and axe against spear. It's a bit tight for my liking, but it should work.
Edit2: If we can decide on this course of action, I could take those battles so we know what happens and hand off to LC. Otherwise, LC should just take over now. I figure I've now played about 45t in a row, which is pushing it.
Couple of screenshots:
Spoiler :
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
That's awesome that our wb can cross ocean. It can avoid barb galleys that way, when possible. Looks like if our wb had been two turns faster we wouldn't have seen that barb culture.
bbp, I think I might as well take a turnset now. 45t is extreme.
bbp, I think I might as well take a turnset now. 45t is extreme.
Dhoomstriker
Girlie Builder
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2006
- Messages
- 13,474
Good work, bbp! 
Without your recent efforts, we wouldn't have had a submission at all. Don't beat yourself up over any minor mishaps. The good news is that we have Astronomy, we've started our war, and it won't be long before we start seeing some war success.
Even 6 units versus 3 would have been pushing it for a City capture, but 4 against 3 means we almost certainly won't be capturing the City immediately. Likely, at this point, we're probably more going to focus on either:
a) Getting reinforcements before attacking, so that we can capture the City for certain (8+ units would be nice to have)
OR
b) Attacking minimally with the hope of getting an 8 XP unit, but not aiming to capture the City just yet
Not a problem, either way.
I had to really stare at your screenshots before I saw the Barb Culture that you were talking about in the first screenshot. I'm not sure that I would have even noticed it. Great eye!
There's no guarantee that you found Oz, but as you say, it shouldn't take too long to check, so we probably should check once we have Trade Routes with Mansa/Shaka. Normally-spawned Barb Cities tend to have Barb Galleys floating around them, so I'd be very careful about ending our Work Boat's turn on a Coast square near that Barb City.
Did we ever check if Asoka and Ragnar have their own sources of Ivory or Iron?
That's how it usually works for the end of my turnsets... the desire to keep on playing and do it all... and then, very shortly after handing the game off, feeling glad that I didn't keep playing.
Without your recent efforts, we wouldn't have had a submission at all. Don't beat yourself up over any minor mishaps. The good news is that we have Astronomy, we've started our war, and it won't be long before we start seeing some war success.Even 6 units versus 3 would have been pushing it for a City capture, but 4 against 3 means we almost certainly won't be capturing the City immediately. Likely, at this point, we're probably more going to focus on either:
a) Getting reinforcements before attacking, so that we can capture the City for certain (8+ units would be nice to have)
OR
b) Attacking minimally with the hope of getting an 8 XP unit, but not aiming to capture the City just yet
Not a problem, either way.
I had to really stare at your screenshots before I saw the Barb Culture that you were talking about in the first screenshot. I'm not sure that I would have even noticed it. Great eye!
There's no guarantee that you found Oz, but as you say, it shouldn't take too long to check, so we probably should check once we have Trade Routes with Mansa/Shaka. Normally-spawned Barb Cities tend to have Barb Galleys floating around them, so I'd be very careful about ending our Work Boat's turn on a Coast square near that Barb City.
Did we ever check if Asoka and Ragnar have their own sources of Ivory or Iron?
Yes, bbp, you have done your duty. Sit back and take a breather. It's very easy to get "caught up in the moment" of wanting to play one more turn, but sit back and let LC take over and you'll probably very quickly feel glad that you decided to take a break.LowtherCastle said:
That's how it usually works for the end of my turnsets... the desire to keep on playing and do it all... and then, very shortly after handing the game off, feeling glad that I didn't keep playing.
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Got it!
Similar threads
