SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[Duckweed]

Deleted.

Just wanted to posted in our own thread. I'm really sorry.

Did you meant to post that in your own thread?

I'm opening 2 threads in the same time. Tried to quote some posts in your thread and forgot to check which thread it was before posting.

 

[babybluepants]

Did you meant to post that in your own thread?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Since we'll be doing some fighting, we'll soon start to see Great Generals emerge. How do we think they might be best used?

For example, should we get a Super Medic? Would it be ridiculous to get a Galleon Super Medic (can Galleons even get said promos)? Would we, with 20 XP and Charismatic, even be able to get the extra movement plus Medic III promos? What's that... Combat I plus 3 Medic promos plus Flanking I plus 2 Navigation promos... that'll be 7 promos...
Promotions come on what, 2, 4, 8, 13, 19, 26, 34, 43, 53, is it? Hmmm, not enough for a super-speedy Super Medic.

If we eventually get Vassalage, then every City with a settled Great General without a Barracks or a Stable could get us a Flanking II War Elephant.

Of course, then there is the argument that we'll build the most units out of our Heroic Epic City, so it's a good spot to settle a Great General.

Actually, back to that 4 XP (2 from a settled Great General and 2 from Vassalage idea), we could feasibly start pumping out 5-movement-point Galleons... Flanking I plus Navigation I = +1 movement point... I think that's how boat promos work, anyway... with multiple "slow Galleons," this "speedy fleet" may or may not matter, but it could offer us a marginal amount of flexibility.

Of course, if we're going to chain our Galleons anyway, then an extra movement point only means needing slightly less Galleons in the chain, not really getting our units to the front lines faster.


I'm not really sure what's best at this point but figured that I would throw some ideas out there before the decision had to be made.


Also, at the very end of the game, could it be faster to raze Cities and resettle them with chained Settlers than to capture said Cities (i.e. the Cities that won't come out of revolt for 8+ turns)? It will be Land Area, not Population that will hold us back from Domination.

A quick switch into Caste System = instant Artist Specialist + build Culture = super-fast-expanding borders.

It's something to think about, anyway.

 

[babybluepants]

Turnset Report, Part 1

Our first WE died, knocking the spear down to 2.3/4HP. The second WE defeated the CGI archer and is now 8/2XP and can make three promotions.

Our third WE has 74.87% odds against the final archer and our axe would have ~100% odds against the spear.

In any case, we can start the HE now, but we need to decide how we want to upgrade the WE. One possibility would be to make him a medic. That would be nice to have, even starting now.

PPP
Research: Music at 0% for now.
I fully intend to get the GA. It will enable us to run 2 GAges and costs ~370g to research. 370g/8t = 48g/t. We're already working something like 35 commerce tiles and that will go up. That's not even including the hammers we get from the GA and the possiblity of revolting and the gpps.

Builds: WEs, trebs, galleons, and the HE.

Workers: Finish plantations, necessary roads. Transport a worker to the wheat when needed.

Scouting: Central wb continues toward the center. SW wb explores the barb culture, then Zulu. The explorer makes a beeline for Asoka's spoke. Lizzie's not mobilizing.

Send one galleon, if possible, to Asoka's spoke to see if the cows were pastured by a barb or Asoka and if that city is on the desert tile or between the iron and the cows. Schedule its capture so we can create an canal there asap.

Warring:
1. Promote our WE to the fourth level. Medic?
2. T+0: Finish capturing Madurai. Load all cats plus some WEs into the 3 galleons that are closest to Madurai. Load the other units onto the other two galleons and move.
3. T+1: Finish off Madurai amphibiously if neceassary, unless we have unfavorable odds.
4. T+2: Land 7 cats, axe, WE 1W of Bombay.
5. T+3: Bombard and capture Bombay, if cty defenses now 0% and not overly defended, else land remaining units and capture T+4.

Diplomacy: No extortions, no wooden nickels.

Trades:
Resource trades if sensible.
Trade for MansaTeam Compass for Monarchy + lots of gold.
We'll talk about other trades for gold before I do them. I'll keep an eye on AIs completing Music prereqs.

Looks fine to me.
What exactly do you mean by "fully intend to get GA"? I'm fine with researching it, but don't really wanna sacrifice production.
Workers: when we can spare some turns, we should farm the grass that's shared between Wash and Stone. Marble should maybe get another farm, too. And I think we should chop everything asap. Nothing to save it for now.
I don't get the Asoka spoke stuff. Why are we sending two units there?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Deleted.

Just wanted to posted in our own thread. I'm really sorry.

I'm opening 2 threads in the same time. Tried to quote some posts in your thread and forgot to check which thread it was before posting.

No probs. We can use all the help we can get... Send the rest of your team around if they're bored...

 

[babybluepants]

I think we can have 3 galleons landing in Bombay T+2. We should add more WE's, so an immediate capture is possible.

I missed de-fogging that one tile east of Monte's capital. That's annoying. Hopefully we can connect to Mansa's main trade network via Gao.

Edit: I would upgrade the current 8xp down the medic line. There's no real gain from Combat3 at this stage, and we'll have more 8xp units fairly soon.

 

[babybluepants]

No probs. We can use all the help we can get... Send the rest of your team around if they're bored...

I wouldn't object to some help.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Dhoom: Good ideas for the future. Building culture also enables fast border expansion now. In Panama, for example, 10h = 1t to access the clams. Or in Madurai, we could pop the borders as soon as we build the wb for the fish. Another reason to get Music sooner than later.

@bbp:
1. "Fully intend" means spending gold to go 100% research if some AI gets a music prereq. It doesn't mean sacrificing production.
2. Agree on the worker ideas. Thanks.
3. On Aoska's spoke, we need to locate a possible canal, if any. We may need a land unit to do that. We still have a lot of land to defog anyway. Meanwhile, I'm thinking that we should send a galleon-load or two down there to capture Cows. When you stopped before, the road was half done with no pasture. Now there's a pasture. I'm thinking that city might be pop2 but stil 0% culture so we could even attack amphibiously. The sooner we get it, the sooner it comes out of resistance and we can build the fort. We're actually in a hurry to do that. That same stack of units could then go down on the NW city Dhoom has been talking about. We need to double up on Asoka if we want to kill him off in 10t.
4. Do you mean a T+2 capture of bombay? That would mean amphibious, which would be 58% against unpromoted archers or 30% against CGIs. I was planning for a T+3 capture, allowinig our cats to knock down the defenses and 5 WEs ready to attack amphibiously. I'm also going to try to get at least a couple of WEs onto the galleys for a T+2 landing. The problem there is safety of the unprotected galleys. I'll have to try to scope out the coastal waters to see if the coast is clear.
5. If I attack Madurai this turn, I can wait to promote the 8XP WE till I know the results. If I want the CIII to finish off Madurai, I'll do that.
6. We already have 8 TRs with Mansa and he only has 9 cities. So that fogged tile doesn't seem to be an issue. We don't have any TRs with Zulu yet. Let's hope there is a southern coastal passage to him.

Observations:
1. It's clear that we can build spoke canals to the SW barb city via the Northern Passage. It remains to be seen if that's also true viw the Southern Passage.
2. The SW barb city is 54 tiles from Panama. That's 14 turns by galleon (without NavI), so we need to send enough galleons in that direction at least 14 turns before we plan to finish.
3. I just noticed that Gems City will expand to the Panama clams in 4t... . So much for building a monument... I think we should build a wb for that eventuality. Then we can work more of those mines.
4. Attacking Liz is logistically complicated. Especially London and Hastings. One possiblity would be to settle a city down the spoke from York, either SE of the ivory fort or further south and adding a second fort. That canal would allow us to reachthe western city and London from the west.
5. Ragnar has the most population on the planet by quite a bit. Since he only had ~5 cities before we DOWed, that means his cities are big so I presume he has lots of food. Let's go feast on that asap.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I noticed that Duckweed is Content Staff. Does that mean other staff are discontented?

 

[LowtherCastle]

3 of Liz's 5 cities already have chs. 1 of GK's 4 visible cities has a ch.

 

[babybluepants]

I noticed that Duckweed is Content Staff. Does that mean other staff are discontented?

I'm feeling all right. Can't speak for others.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Another reason to get Music sooner than later.

Oh, Lord, what have I done?

5. If I attack Madurai this turn, I can wait to promote the 8XP WE till I know the results.

Very true. We only really need to decide on the turn where our War Elephant will either engage in battle or will end the turn with all of his movement points such that he'll heal from the higher level of hitpoints instead of from the lower level of hitpoints.

3. On Aoska's spoke, we need to locate a possible canal, if any. We may need a land unit to do that. We still have a lot of land to defog anyway. Meanwhile, I'm thinking that we should send a galleon-load or two down there to capture Cows.

That idea is fine, although I'd rather go with 2 Galleon loads than just 1 Galleon load. 6 units = relatively easy to capture a marginal City, while 3 units = relatively easy to fail at capturing a marginal City. I was afraid that you were simply sending an empty Galleon to go scouting and then were also sending an Explorer to do the same thing.

3. I just noticed that Gems City will expand to the Panama clams in 4t... . So much for building a monument... I think we should build a wb for that eventuality.

I'm fine with building a Work Boat when in Police State, since we get Police State's production boost. Being built mostly with whip overflow could be good, if that can bet set up, so as to actually get some bonus Hammers from Police State without executing a 1-pop-whip.


If our War Elephant loses when attacking Madurai, are you still going to attack with the Axeman? Would it depend upon how wounded the Archer became?

I missed de-fogging that one tile east of Monte's capital.

Since LC said that this missing square didn't seem to affect our Trade Routes, perhaps Astronomy's Ocean-trading feature is working in our favour here.

Edit: I would upgrade the current 8xp down the medic line. There's no real gain from Combat3 at this stage, and we'll have more 8xp units fairly soon.

I agree with you that we definitely want a Medic unit soon. As I said, if we don't have a shot at getting another 5 XP unit arriving soon, then I'm okay with making a Medic I out of our 8 XP War Elephant. However, it seems like we could get one strong unit and one Medic if we do have another 5 XP unit handy, instead of two medium-strength units.

I mean, sometimes just having a unit with 1 extra promo in a stack can help you overcome an attacking breakpoint... for example, sometimes you might want to lead with your 0 XP unit and follow up with your highly promoted unit and sometimes the other way around... having different levels of promos makes fighting a lot more flexible.

3 of Liz's 5 cities already have chs.

Well, capturing Cities where even some of the Courthouses remain intact would be helpful.

When and from which City do you think we should be building a Settler for a canal on her hub?



Assuming that we are successful with capturing Madurai, do you plan to garrison it at all? If so, with what units?

I really, really, really do hope that if you plan to capture it with a single unit, like an Axeman, that you won't be also moving Galleys or Galleons into the City on the same turn such that the boats will end their turn inside of the City... doing so would just be asking for Asoka to run in with a Chariot and auto-sink any boats inside of Madurai, along with any units aboard the boats.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It's clear that we can build spoke canals to the SW barb city via the Northern Passage.

Yes, well, if an AI beats us to building one of these Cities, we might just have to go to war with said AI and his or her teammate in order to capture that City... that is, unless it's a 1-square-wide passage and said AI Team gave us Open Borders.

That's all assuming that we have found Oz. Just because there is a Barb City on the opposite side of the map from us that appears to be only reachable via Astronomy does not mean that we have found Oz. (Yes, it's very likely, particularly since we haven't seen a Barb City's borders in the middle-south part of the map yet, but we won't be certain for a couple of turns yet.)

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We're definitely going to rely on Galleons, right? I mean, we're not going to need to build a long Road up to any of the AIs, right?

I only figured that I would bring up the subject now since laying down a Road takes a good number of turns to accomplish, not to mention removing a Barb City from the way that we might be able to otherwise ignore. Actually, we might not only want to ignore said Barb City but actually also intentionally leave it in place, in order to deter AIs from attacking us with a stack via land.

 

[babybluepants]

4. Do you mean a T+2 capture of bombay? That would mean amphibious, which would be 58% against unpromoted archers or 30% against CGIs. I was planning for a T+3 capture, allowinig our cats to knock down the defenses and 5 WEs ready to attack amphibiously. I'm also going to try to get at least a couple of WEs onto the galleys for a T+2 landing. The problem there is safety of the unprotected galleys. I'll have to try to scope out the coastal waters to see if the coast is clear.

No, I meant we should try and get 3 WE landing on T+2, along with your 9 units, so we don't have to attack amphibiously on T+3. I think the galleons from Gems, Panama, south of Panama and Marble should all be able to make it (assuming we capture Madurai, ofc). I also think we have 13 units available near Bridge. Haven't looked too closely, though.

Since LC said that this missing square didn't seem to affect our Trade Routes, perhaps Astronomy's Ocean-trading feature is working in our favour here.

Duh...


Edit: xpost w Dhoom

 

[babybluepants]

@LC,
You can play whenever you feel like it, as far as I'm concerned. There really isn't much to discuss right now. Just details...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

What? I try to make you feel better about your being upset over having missed a square and you call me stupid?


Yeah, I'm fine with LC playing, too. Many of my questions don't necessarily need answers but are there to give you something to think about or to help you to have alternate plans in mind in case the ideal case does not come to pass.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

By the way, I'm pretty certain that Forts can be built in neutral territory. So, if capturing this "Cow City" of Asoka's (or is it a Barb City?) near Asoka's spoke will allow us to build a canal, we don't necessarily need to wait for our borders to expand before working on a Fort. Of course, by the time that we get a Worker or two there, our borders will likely have expanded anyway, but we can just aim to get a Worker there, say, using one of the two Galleons that drops off the initial payload of 6 military units.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

You know, from the Culture graph, it really looks like Fifth Element is going for a Cultural Victory. With the vast cache of local Resources available, an easily defendable chokepoint, and as long as you are willing to assume that the Wizard will be trivially easy to defeat, it's certainly the map to try it on. The trickiest part is going to be obtaining sufficient Religions. I do hope that they end up putting in a good showing for my favourite Victory Condition.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Is it just me or did Asoka jerkily build a Fort instead of a Farm on Madurai's Plains Wheat square? What an awesome City that's going to be...

Also, with the Philosophical Trait (cheap Universities), I wonder how many other teams teched to Paper -> Education and thereby bought the AIs' World Maps, giving them info about the world that we're fighting so hard to reveal?