SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

What? I try to make you feel better about your being upset over having missed a square and you call me stupid?

Oops, sorry. I obviously meant to call myself stupid.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I know that we probably don't care too much about Diplo, but did we ever figure out any of the AIs' Favourite Civics?

I.e. Do any of the AIs have a positive Diplo bonus with each other for this factor?

I'm mostly interested in terms of seeing whether it might be feasible to drag one AI team into war with antoher AI team. Such a thing may be possible if, later in the game, we capture a popular Religion and switch to it, say, during a Golden Age, just to curry sufficient favour with an AI team to be bribeable by us.


It does seem like we have a very healthy Power margin over the individual AIs from the north... however, since they calculate their combined Power, they probably still figure that they are stronger than us.


One thought: Does a Flanking promotion get affected by an Amphibious Assault? And if yes, does it get affected in a positive way, i.e. due to the odds being further out of our favour, we might get a greater-than-normal set of odds for retreating? I mean, if we had, say, a Combat I War Elephant that had 2 promotions available, which would make him a better Amphibious attacker? Combat III or Flanking II + Combat I?

 

[babybluepants]

Elizabeth - Hereditary Rule
No one else so far.

 

[babybluepants]

No, I meant we should try and get 3 WE landing on T+2, along with your 9 units, so we don't have to attack amphibiously on T+3. I think the galleons from Gems, Panama, south of Panama and Marble should all be able to make it (assuming we capture Madurai, ofc).

No. The one from Panama is one tile short of making T+2. We could use it to drop off on the wine tile, or we could use the galleys to chain with it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Good thinking with using Galleys in a chain. The Galleys might serve a better purpose doing so rather than simply sailing back and being unable to deliver new troops for a while due to the number of turns that it will take for them to head back to our core Cities to pick up units followed by returning to a drop-off location.

Since our Civilization is probably going to be listening to the likes of Justin Bieber (learning Music with our Gold reserves) before upgrading our Galleys to Galleons, we might as well maximize the use of our Galleys however we can.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm playing on.

T123 We captured Maburai, no probs. Noticed that Liz/GK won't trade techs any more. Don't like us enough. We make 9gpt worth of resource trades. I have decided to use our explorer to defog a northern hub route to Gandhi, so when we decide to DoW liz, we'll only need to settle York SW and capture York + GK's Sarmation+Samaruong to get our TRs back. That could happen relatively quickly. If they DoW us, we'll take a severe TR hit.

T124 Hit Enter and didn't get attacked. Liz/GK like us better and will trade techs again. I trade Aesthetics to GK for Monarchy+90g. Good deal and I didn't want to risk them not liking us again. I upgraded another galley just to make Dhoom happy. Make another 2gpt in resource trades. YorkSW has 2 fish and cows in addition to the ivory. Very nice. We now have 10 TRs with Mansa, so no problems there.

T125 We have discovered the Wizard of Oz! He's living in Emerald City. And he's a wimp, of course. Yes, he's a rifleman, but a lame one.

Bombay has gold! Three defenders and we blocked out a spear by landing. I have promoted the axe to Woodsman II. (Btw, I promoted the WE to CIII because I figured we could turn the axe into a Woodsman III double-first-strike double-woods-mvmt super medic At 34 XP he also can acquire Medic III).

I can't tell if the Cows desert is coastal or not, but the back corner looks a bit dark to me. Maybe someone else can tell. I'l upload the save for that purpose.

That's probably all the time I have today.

 

[babybluepants]

Are we landing at Asoka's capital yet? Can you see the units there?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

T125 We have discovered the Wizard of Oz! He's living in Emerald City. And he's a wimp, of course. Yes, he's a rifleman, but a lame one.

Trollololol! How pathetic. At least he's on a Hills square and appears to require an amphibious assault to capture.

Therefore, Trebs + Cats won't help, since they can't attack amphibiously in BtS.

Frigates probably won't help either as that City apprears to have no production for building Cultural Buildings, although I suppose that the Barbs could always decide to build a Monument at some point.

I figured we could turn the axe into a Woodsman III double-first-strike double-woods-mvmt super medic At 34 XP he also can acquire Medic III

A word of caution: once he is at the 14 XP mark (34 - 20 = 14), we'll want to ensure that we be very careful with him... for example, if he ends his turn in a Forest, he'll likely come up as the stack defender, which could cause him to die. I have lost Super Medics in this manner, due to the units having so many promotions... and units with First Strike tend to come up as the defender a lot, too. Once he becomes a Super Medic, we may just want to park him on a Galleon permanently or something.



Wait, what? Bombay was defended by Swordsmen and Horse Archers? No Archers? Trollolol. A Horse Archer doesn't even get defensive bonuses.

I can't tell if the Cows desert is coastal or not, but the back corner looks a bit dark to me.

Well, with the position of your Galleon, if Cow City's Cultural Bordres had expanded, then you should see orange Cultural Borders at the southern edge of the Clam Resource.

If that's the case, then the City hasn't expanded its Cultural Borders yet (Which makes the City easier to capture but makes it less valuable since Asoka's Work Boat won't have netted the Clam and our Cultural Borders there might not expand until after we learn Music.

Where's the second Galleon for that City, though? I only see 3 white circles on a single Galleon... are you only going in with 2 units instead of 6 (or even at least 3 units)?

I upgraded another galley just to make Dhoom happy.

I'll be happier once you stuff some units into it. Thanks, though.
(What's with these bloody teammates... we are so demanding... )

Are we landing at Asoka's capital yet? Can you see the units there?

From LC's third screenshot, it appears that we have landed at least 4 units to the west of Bombay, but it could also be 6 units that we landed. There appear to be 2 Swords and 1 Horse Archer defending Asoka's capital, but it's weird that the mouse-hover-text does not display the City's Cultural Defence as part of the defensive bonus and only shows the +25% Defensive bonus for being on a Hills square... unless this fact is normal... I can't recall for certain.

It would be nice if one of Asoka's units attacked our stack, so that we'd get our Axeman to come up as the defender against a Spear or a Sword or our War Elephant to come up as the defender against a Horse Archer.



So much for needing 100+ War Elephants. In fact, with City Garrison III and Drill I instead of Drill IV, we can attack with non-Flanking War Elephants. 0-1 First Strikes? It's not even worth taking Flanking promotions... we might never build another Barracks or Stable even!

The toughest part with the Wizard is that Galleon-chaining won't necessarily be the strategy to use, as we'll want multiple fully-loaded Galleons to arrive at the same time as each other. We'll likely be facing 3 Longbowmen instead of 3 Archers by the time that we arrive there.

I would think that 10 fully-loaded Galleons (filled with 30 War Elephants) should be more than sufficient to take down the Wizard.

Sure, a fewer number of Grenadiers could work, too, but we'll probably be better off spawning 2 Golden Ages than going up to Grenadiers to deal with a single Rifleman (saving our Music Great Artist, if we get it, for the second Golden Age in case we get 2 Great Scientists manually).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Make sure that we're still building some Axemen.

I mean, you aren't going to defend Bombay (after we capture it, I mean) from an enemy Spearman with a Woodsman II Axeman, are you? Well, you'll probably have to initially unless we brought more Axemen with us to the frontlines.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Btw, Madurai kept the lh, lost the granary.

The Cows galleon has 5/2WE, WE, and treb. It will be folowed 1t later by a galleon with WE(+2wkrs if we can see coast after landing the first group).

 

[babybluepants]

I think the cow city is 1S of cow, but not sure.

Why do we need the third silk right away? I'd plantation and road the incense first. Ivory is at 0 happy right now, and we could have -1 for WW at some point.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I think the cow city is 1S of cow, but not sure.

Why do we need the third silk right away? I'd plantation and road the incense first. Ivory is at 0 happy right now, and we could have -1 for WW at some point.

Yes, Cows must be 1 south of the cows, a rare instance of an AI settling inteligently! Perfect for us if we can also make the canal. I'll keep the city no matter what because it's a good one with those resources. We still need more production to finish in 40t.

Right now we have ZERO silks. I traded our only one away... . So Ivory has 1 reserve there. (Hey, 2gpt ain't bad...). I'm prioritizing the third silks so we can work it occasionally. The incense will be done in time. But even more to the point, those two workers had to do something close enough to Bridge City to be able to jump on the galleon next turn, if our landing units expose a coastal tile at Cows.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Keep up the comments guys. I haven't responded to everything you've said, but it's all very helpful. Right now I'm thinking we want to get started on the Liz warring asap, but not sooner than we're close to ready to re-establish TRs rapidly after DoW. Liz's cities are so under-defended that it would be a shame not to catch her with her panties down.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, why do we necessarily need a canal City in order to maintain Trade Routes with the AIs from the west and with Mansa?

Is it because Elizabeth's Cultural Borders reach all the way to the north part of the map?

If yes, what's the status on Genghis' Cultural Borders? Do they do the same?

Another thought is that if we can spare a Galleon, we can send one on ahead down to the south and south-west from the Bombay area and hope to meet up with our Work Boat explorer. As long as our Galleon maps out a path of squares that aren't inside of Asoka's or Ragnar's Cultural Borders, then we will have a path for Trade Routes.

They key is to remember to reveal open Ocean squares (except for in a case like Bombay itself, where we plan to capture the City long before this point should matter--i.e. Asoka's Cultural Borders will not block us at Bombay).


It may not be the ideal solution but it is a thought.

Regardless, presumably we'll eventually want the Canal City at Elizabeth so we'll need to figure out which City is going to build a Settler.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We should probably avoid killing that Work Boat. Perhaps we can move the Galleon to 1E of the Work Boat's location when we land our troops.

There is a small possibility that between now and the time that we capture the City, Asoka's Cultural Borders will expand and he will thereby net us a free Clam. It's a long shot, but I don't see it hurting for us to try it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Who built The Great Wall out of Asoka and Ragnar? If it was Ragnar and thereby we won't capture it for a little while, we may need to be wary of Barb units coming at Cow City.

 

[LowtherCastle]

At 0% research we're running between +30gpt and 45gpt. Our TR income is 76gpt/2g/TR = 38g/TR lost if Liz DoWs us. The problem is that the coastal tiles around the perimeter of the map are mostly 1 tile wide. GK swallows that up with several cities. I suspect Ragnar does as well, so it might be quite some time before we could open up the southern passageway. But our central wb has just spotted an Asoka axe about 2t ahead of our explorer's exact path, so I'll re-route him south to Zululand. That's probably better anyway, because it might get us an extra 9 TRs sooner. We only have 1 more to spare right now and we'll need them in 3t, when Cows CIty comes out of resistance. I agree with you and bbp, and am sending a galleons forward to map out that route.

Cows CIty (Ahmededabad) actually expanded its cutlural borders in the IT after I landed, but the wb had already taken refuge in the city. Gonzo.

Ragnar has the GW.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Playing on.

T126
Bombay 2pops a spear so we land 5 additional units and bombard city defenses to 5% (I thought 7 cats was enough for 0% ). Cows City (Ahmededabad) will serve as a canal!. We steal a wkr and sight borders further west on the spoke, a city newly settled. 2 archers defending but risky odds for amphibious.

T127
Cows City borders expand . The good news, though, is that it already has Buddhism. Our treb bombards and we capture with no losses, our second WE surviving with 0.3/8HP . We get a granary for our troubles. A measly 28 coins. Resistance is 3t.

Bombay now has a horse archer as a fifth defender. The swords on the hill are pretty tough defenders. we lose 4 suicide cats (last one at 83% ) but take Bombay with no further losses. We keep only a lh, but we'll take it. The capture is worth 120 coins. (Madurai was 40g, btw.) Resistance is 5t. Population is 5 pop. Bombay founded Buddhism so it will expand in 2t. With the gold mine and wines, it will produce 20+ cpt. Very nice.

Our galleon goes south and sight another coastal city (w/horses) with walls and 4 defenders. We can reach 2 more inland cities in 1t, if I'm not mistaken, from Bombay, so I think we'll take them before his Horse City, which will require some bombardment.

Gandhi/MOnte complete Civil Service and prefer to hog it. We get a nice 5gpt deal with Gandhi for silks. Speaking of which, that's another 15gpt that we might lose if Liz DoWs us.

T128
Dhoom's SW Asoka city is Agra and has 5 defenders. It will succomb next turn. Bombay needed no steenkin' axe defender because our galleon chain loaded it up with 3 more WEs instead... Our units are coming out so fast now that the chain will have a hard time keeping up, but eventually we'll hit our poprushing limit.

At this point, it appears that all of Asoka's remaining cities except maybe one are on flat land... .

The big news is that Mansa now has Civil Service. Gandhi will trade it plus 100g for Machinery. The benefit for us is macemen and irrigation (Washington's corn could gain a bushel). We might be able to get it straight up for Music if we want to wait and not give Gandhi Machinery. We're also at the point where we could afford to research Music in 3t.

The flip side to this good news here is that these two teams haven't been researching Feudalism.

So I'm stopping and uploading for your consideration on this matter.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Cows City (Ahmededabad) will serve as a canal!

Is that a canal with or without building a Fort?

Gandhi/MOnte complete Civil Service and prefer to hog it.

Aren't they the team that also has Metal Casting? We might see Maces out of them soon. Domination is sounding better than Conquest.

We get a nice 5gpt deal with Gandhi for silks.

Is that our last source of Silk?

Speaking of which, that's another 15gpt that we might lose if Liz DoWs us.

Is keeping the peace worth giving them a tech if they Demand it?

Bombay needed no steenkin' axe defender because our galleon chain loaded it up with 3 more WEs instead...

Just remember that a unit has to unload from a Galleon in order to act as a City Defender... if it stays on the boat, then the unit will not defend if that square is attacked by a land unit.

EDIT: Just to be 100% clear, if there are only boats or units aboard boats inside of a City that gets attacked, all of our units in said City will instantly die without a fight. But, you knew that already.

The big news is that Mansa now has Civil Service. Gandhi will trade it plus 100g for Machinery. The benefit for us is macemen and irrigation (Washington's corn could gain a bushel).

The downside is handing out Macemen but that team was going to get them anyway... and better to let Gandhi/Monte remain the clear tech leaders rather than leaving trading opportunities open for them.

Taking Civil Service screws up all future Great Scientist Lightbulbing. I could care less about Military Science after seeing the pathetic Wizard.

We might be able to get it straight up for Music if we want to wait and not give Gandhi Machinery.

That's also an option if you feel that we may need to go the Conquest route and if you feel that we have absolutely no use for Maces at the present time.

We're also at the point where we could afford to research Music in 3t.

Oh. Well, in that case, Music is a better trade. Chances are that if you don't trade away Machinery, Gandhi/Monte will self-tech it next, anyway. That's probably fine, as it means they'll still take a while to learn it.

So, if Music is going to come that quickly, we might as well just wait to trade using Music (although we may need to "top up the trade" with another tech that said AI team may or may not have already started to partially research).

The flip side to this good news here is that these two teams haven't been researching Feudalism.

The less teams that learn it, the better.

Another alternative is not to take Civil Service and delay Music for a while, so as to hopefully encourage those two teams to chase after Music.


I'm not really certain what's best at this point, but I'd be fine with keeping Gandhi/Monte as the tech leader by trading them Machinery as long as we are 100% certain that we will win by Domination instead of Conquest.

Otherwise, I'm fine with delaying Civil Service for a while, optionally getting Music soon or optionally delaying Music, but then there's always the risk that if we delay it, a team could get a Great Artist and Lightbulb it or might just research the tech in 2 turns to our 3, or you might be too busy to notice that you have a competitor for learning Music.

Since we're busy with the war, it's probably not a good idea to delay learning Music, since we might not notice a competitor sneaking up on stealing the Great Artist while we're busy warring, so I guess either aim to get Music within the next 5 turns for trading or else go with the "Domination for certain, keep one AI Team much smarter than the others (Gandhi/Monte) by trading them Machinery" approach.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Note that Machinery not only opens up Macemen but also opens up Optics (Caravels) and Engineering (Pikes) soon thereafter for any AI Team that learns it.

So, it's suicidal to trade it away if we want to go for Conquest.

On the whole, unless you see an absolutely need for Civil Service (+1 Food doesn't fit this requirement in my mind), maybe we should just wait for Music, delaying the AIs getting Machinery for that much longer.

While Longbowmen are nasty, Pikes could be even worse for a primarily-War-Elephant army.

Macemen (in our hands) are alright but they cost more than War Elephants, so we could definitely do without them for a while to come.