SGOTM 14 - Phoenix Rising

[lymond]

Thanks for doing a test map. As I mentioned before, due to the uncertain nature of this map, I'd prefer revealing more map knowledge before creating a full blow test map. In the meantime, just having the layout of our immediate area for testing the start is more than fine. A full blow test map is a lot of work and I don't want to have to re-roll a map later after all that work. Once we reveal a bit more, I should have a good idea for the basis of the map.

I still thing early Writing is a very strong play here and should not be overlooked. Once we get the Lib up and we will grow fast into scientists, the other techs will come very fast. If we had AIs real close it would be another matter, but we appear to be in no danger as far as expansion.

 

[vranasm]

L I don't want to throw away library, but I think with the gems and gold, the income will flow in.

And I think we really need to start the massive expansion and BW is the right answer. TW is just to connect cities and get more commerce back from settling.

if we go writing after TW or some other tech (myst, sailing, masonry) is questionable.

If you open the SS you can see that at T41 we can have 3 workers, 1 settler (from techs mining, bw, tw) due to having early BW.

I think it's really strong opening.

I obviously didn't do simulations with writing->mining->bw... maybe I should? ugh so much work to do in SS and I still dunno if anyone else is even reading that whole thing (except for Gum ;-)).

 

[Jaybone]

Good call on the tons of happiness resources. This actually might alter our strategy some as we can build a number of super cities. This map is one to be Rex Ed quickly. I see no need th go writing before mining or be since we shouldn't be building a library before we get out at least 2 settlers and 2-3 workers

 

[vranasm]

@Gum

you left there cow on hill, which I deleted and played the early 13 T.

so I will repost the test

and the spice has to be forested! it should have 1f2h1c income not 1f1h2c

 

[vranasm]

I made just quick test with Wri before min->bw and have to admit that even doesn't make sense at all.

I can't build worker before settler since he won't have anything to do. At T41 I am halfway in BW (7T from finishing), settled city 2 and 2 workers work on wheat.

The library is far away from completition in cap...
I guess I could built the library instead of settler, but the worker will be just standing there after PH mine.

We need BW to clear the land to place riverside farms!

 

[Gumbolt]

V - It was a quick map I made. Yes I noticed the cow and spice error already. Thanks for editing those. As for writing mining that is a big no!!! You need mining for the gems.

Been doing some testing. Mainly on the Oracle gambit with the gems. The main issue i face is the delay in GS from going worker/worker/settler. Although concentrating on expansion got me three cities all size 5-7 by 1000bc. A fourth city size 1-2 too.

Writing next is interesting if you build the library soon. Problems is you delay the third city by about 10-12+ turns.

The other big difference is in workboat exploration. Turn 44-47 is ideal but if you mess around it is soon turn 67!

For instance would sailing/masonry/ hunting help us more and push for GLH taking currency oracle. Then HBR and construction for phants/pults.

The other thing is skipping IW wise? Swords could lead an early war.

Overall delaying sailing will delay galleys and an early war. The next few techs will make or break our game.

Long term we need to consider a bulb strategy for astronomy.

 

[Gumbolt]

Tested Mining writing BW.

Seems to me the early library is just about getting out 2 GS and the early maths!!

I did 2 saves up to 1000bc.

The 1000bc save went worker/worker/settler/settler. Overall it got out the third city quicker and by 1000bc it had worked the gold and rice. Managed to nab CS too with oracle. The downside is most of the forest got eaten up on pre maths chops.

THe 975bc save had 3 cities but lacked the worked gold and rice. Also lacked a 4th city. I was slow on the third worker really. It finished 4 turns ahead on the 2nd GS. Overall for me the question is do we want to save the forest for maths chops or chop it all losing the 50% bonus?

If we planned it we could chop libraries in both 1st and 2nd cities but this ia war game not a science push.

Overall perhaps just grab currency from oracle and push for war techs like construction and HBR. Then focus on building an army once we locate the Ai and have 4-5 cities to start pumping out units.

We could even tech IW and just go for an early assault.

 

[vranasm]

well in the SS the 1st variant uses 4 forests (80H) up to T40, then you start roading and improving 2nd city.

So I consider it moderate usage of forests, but kicks us pretty nicely forward.
We should plan to chop forests in a way to stimulate regrowth.

I wouldn't wait with all forests until math, since then you really can steam for mining->writing.

the sooner we get the 4 city empire going, especially with this kind of resources the better.

the worker->worker means 2 more workers after finishing the in the process or you run 2 workers for 3 city empire?

I admit I wasn't sure if i should put those t40 hammers into worker or settler, 3 workers for 2 cities heared a bit better because of roads and improvements in new site.
Then I could start at T42 settler.

 

[Gumbolt]

well in the SS the 1st variant uses 4 forests (80H) up to T40, then you start roading and improving 2nd city.

So I consider it moderate usage of forests, but kicks us pretty nicely forward.
We should plan to chop forests in a way to stimulate regrowth.

I wouldn't wait with all forests until math, since then you really can steam for mining->writing.

the sooner we get the 4 city empire going, especially with this kind of resources the better.

the worker->worker means 2 more workers after finishing the in the process or you run 2 workers for 3 city empire?

I admit I wasn't sure if i should put those t40 hammers into worker or settler, 3 workers for 2 cities heared a bit better because of roads and improvements in new site.
Then I could start at T42 settler.

Yes but what are you heading towards???? Play out the test game till youy have taken out the first AI. Then see how good the start was.

 

[vranasm]

Yes but what are you heading towards???? Play out the test game till youy have taken out the first AI. Then see how good the start was.

well long lasting plans didn't come our way last game...

I tested to T 75 my opening... have 4 city empire and took CoL from oracle

wheat+gems is size 4 working on Mids, but not invested much yet, since stone is in the works.
oasis+crabs+gold+stone city is size 3 (1T 4)
fish+ivory is size 2

have connected all happy resources

capital is size 8

Spoiler :

2T from sailing.

As for scouting WB, I had it T 52 due to mistake with improving wheat instead of chopping that forest.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay nearly 1000bc and 4 cities. I forgot to give us archery too.

COL is half the beakers CS offers.

One strategy is to bulb maths, tech HBR and oracle construction. We would then have phants to build. Attack the Ai and take lots of cities. I really doubt we are isolated.

Another is to tech IW and build a fleet and attack Ai. Or we could wait for mace which might take an age. We need to be first to war or we will soon fall behind the pack.

I wonder how important granaries will be if we are whipping a lot??

Again a strategy for astronomy too.

 

[vranasm]

in my tests now i didn't whip at all...

I liked the big city better ;-).

result from test up to 50 BC - half serious

Spoiler :

Anyway... I continued with it up to 50 BC (lost out on GLH by 5 turns, got Mids 525 BC though).

I selfteched to CS at 275BC, GS 1 academy, GS 2 settled, GS 3 pops Philo at 50 BC.

I dunno if you realize how ridiculous this land really is! Something like this I hadn't like ever.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if neil made us completely isolated! With this amount of resources i would consider it (if I would be author of such map) ideal easy setup for isolation (so when you finally get to optics you're not like 2k years behind).

I built market in capital so I run 2 Scientist and 2 merchants.
capital is size 13, city 2 size 12... another 2 cities size 8.

I wonder if I shouldn't be in caste actually!
hmm maybe now with philo is the right time?

 

[vranasm]

just to reiterate something unspoilered...

i wouldn't be surprised if we were isolated without strategics (except for Ivory). This land is so good on economic side, that there has to be some drawback.

 

[Gumbolt]

Thing is with your semi serious save. You are not heading to curs as you have no horse. Rifles??? Bit late for phants too. You said yourself last game you want to start a war by turn 140. You would be lucky to have a war by turn 200. You don't get wars by growing cities and sitting pretty.

Our capital needs to be a unit pump. The coastal cities need to mix galleys with units. Or we need a city on Ai land to funnel in troops so we need less galleys.

I stated what i thought would be the earliest attack already.

I need to sleep on this it is doing my head in.

 

[Jaybone]

Ugh, at work all day. Unless scouting reveals a nearby enemy the best thing to do is get cities up for whipping units and move towards construction. Early workboat would be useful. I will test tomorrow after work

 

[Kadazzle]

Swords won't work this game, too risky - what if we don't pop Iron? If we do an early war, Phants are clearly our best bet as we already see the Elephants there. Besides, Construction is a tech we actually need, IW really isn't (only 2 jungle tiles, phants are stronger).

I think we should start talking about next turnset.

First off, where are we going to move the Warrior next? I think North is fairly obvious, as if we do have land-contact with someone it will be up there. Latter Warriors/Gem City's and the Capital's borders will do a good enough job scouting the south anyways.

Now, we need to focus on what to research next. I think we all agree Mining -> BW is our best bet. From there, it doesn't really matter, as we'll be better equipped to answer that question once it becomes an immediate issue. Techs in our near future we need to think about are obviously Writing, Sailing, The Wheel, Hunting and Mysticism. Like I said though, we can think about that once it becomes an immediate issue.

I rallied hard for early Writing + Sailing last SGOTM we played, and I'm going to rally hard for it again. Assuming we settle 1SW of the gems, we need to build 2 maybe 3 workboats immediately to explore. Early inter-cont trade routes are simply too valuable commercially that we shouldn't avoid them.

I like the opening Mylene suggested.

I think whoever is next inline in the rotation should think about doing their turnset within the next 48 hours, obviously once the entire team gives it the O.K. We've already decided this is our best opening, because it just simply is yield and need-wise. Having said that, there's no point in discussing the future if the future will all stem off this one same opening. Besides, like I said before, we'll be better equipped to evaluate what we need to do in ~20t once we play out these next ~15t, as we'll have more knowledge of the map type, where we are specifically on the map (we're north of the equator BTW, unless we're on some odd gimmicky map type, the AI are most likely different variations of south, east and west), what resources we have, if there's islands, and what AI are on the map.

 

[bobbyboy29]

just to reiterate something unspoilered...

i wouldn't be surprised if we were isolated without strategics (except for Ivory). This land is so good on economic side, that there has to be some drawback.

Yeah I've been thinking this for a while now. Although I've also been thinking that giving us archery+phants is to put us off going for IW and we may actually have iron. (although we probably don't need it.

Also ATM, I'm leaning more towards getting currency from the oracle. The land around is just so good that expansion needs to be priority numero uno. Most suspect that there will be AI's to make trade routes with on other continents. Good land+ good trade routes means that our research won't be as capital centric as last game, this is why I feel that currency will be more effective than CS here. Because of the need for expansion I'd prefer to get mining and BW done before writing here. Working the gems or gold is as good as getting a library, the trade off is the extra city versus early GPP.

 

[Kadazzle]

^ I agree with Currency over CS.

 

[vranasm]

Thing is with your semi serious save. You are not heading to curs as you have no horse. Rifles??? Bit late for phants too. You said yourself last game you want to start a war by turn 140. You would be lucky to have a war by turn 200. You don't get wars by growing cities and sitting pretty.

Our capital needs to be a unit pump. The coastal cities need to mix galleys with units. Or we need a city on Ai land to funnel in troops so we need less galleys.

I stated what i thought would be the earliest attack already.

I need to sleep on this it is doing my head in.

well I am more testing the land we were given.

You seem to assume we will reach AI by galleys. Me not. we have to prove this first.

Last game was on epic, on normal it's more like 90T if we talk about 500 BC attack date.

 

[vranasm]

First off, where are we going to move the Warrior next? I think North is fairly obvious, as if we do have land-contact with someone it will be up there. Latter Warriors/Gem City's and the Capital's borders will do a good enough job scouting the south anyways.

Well both ends (north, south) to me look like they are "end".

I would complete the circle to the south-west, south, south-east though.

There is still silver to be had and furs if the gods want to cheat on us then I expect full cheat!