SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks

[Deity player]

PPP

Changes after your comments.

T66

- start a settler in Washington

- move the new worker from Washington to the plain hill 7 from Washington and build a mine there
- move all 3 workers from the improved rice to the stone and build a quarry there

- heal on sentry the archer (2T required)
- move missionary 4 from himself, then 2 1 from himself
- move Boston warrior 7 from himself

T67 (worker in NY finished)

- start a settler in NY
- start a settler in Boston, putting the workboat into the queue
- Boston works rice+(the recently improved stone)+oasis+crabs
- set research to 100%

- the new worker from NY moves to the plain hill 7 from Washington and builds a mine there

- move Toto 9 from himself (I will not repeat later moves with Toto, he will try to clear a trade route by the coast)
- move Boston warrior 7 from himself
- move missionary 4 from himself, then 2 from himself (the same as moving him 1 from himself and skipping a turn with him) missionary 1, skip turn if safe

T68

- Washington works sheep+corn+cows+(the mined grassland hill)+(the recently mined plain hill)

- move the worker from the recently improved deer 4 from himself (= 2 from NY)
- move 2 workers from the recently improved stone to the gold hill
- move 1 worker from the recently improved stone 8 from himself (= 9 from Boston)
- move 1 worker from the recently improved plain hill (which is 7 from Washington) 1 from NY

- move missionary 1 from himself and if he sees no barbs then move him 8 from himself move missionary 1 from himself, if safe then 9 and move archer 1 from himself
- move Boston warrior 7 from himself

T69

- move the worker from the improved plain hill (which is 7 from Washington) 47 from himself, build a road there and cancel his mission
- the worker 1 from NY builds a road there
- both workers on the gold hill build a mine there
- prechop a forest with the worker 2 from NY
- prechop a forest with the worker 9 from Boston

- move Boston warrior 3 from himself
- move missionary 1 from himself and if he sees no barbs, then move him 8 from himself and move archer 4 from himself
- missionary 4 then 8 (to sheep)

T70 (Pottery discovered)

- start researching Sailing
- set research to 0% set research to 100%
- Boston works (the recently improved gold)+rice+stone+crabs

- move the worker from the desert (which is 89 from NY) to the forested hill 88 from himself
- Boston warrior set on sentry
- move missionary 1 from himself and if he sees no barbs, then move him 9 from himself (= back) and move archer 4 from himself
- missionary 2 then 8 (= back)
- archer on sentry

T71

- the worker which is 1 from NY moves 1 from himself
- move the worker from the pigs 9 from himself this worker (on the forested hill now) builds a road there
- both workers on the gold hill build a road there
- the worker 9 from Boston chops a forest
- the worker 2 from NY chops a forest

- move archer 1 from himself
- move missionary 66 from himself
- missionary 2 then 8 (= back)

T72 (Pottery discovered)

- pause, save, report, maybe also upload the save

General

- check possible tech, resource and commerce trades every turn
- if an AI offers Alpha for Math in his turn, ask him 'what would make this deal work' and then accept (but stop and report if an AI has Alpha in my turn)
- check barbs every turn
- if in doubt, stop and report

OUTLINE OF THE NEXT PPP

I haven't changed the rest yet.

I didn't think about the warrior moves in this part yet. I think that it is possible to move some of our fogbusters to cities to prevent unhappiness.

T72 (settler in Washington finished, work boat in Philly finished)

- set research to 100%
- start worker in Washington
- start workboat in Philly

- the worker 11 from NY builds a road there
- the worker 9 from Boston moves 88 from himself
- move 1 worker from the gold hill 788 from Washington
- move 1 worker from the gold mine 8 from himself and build a road there
- the worker 2 from NY moves 1 from NY and prechops there
- the worker 9 from the pigs prechops there

- move the new workboat from Philly 14 from Philly
- move the new settler from Washington 777 from Washington
- archer set on sentry
- skip a turn with missionary

T73 (settler in NY finished, settler in Boston finished)

- start warrior (or granary?) in NY
- Philly works 2 grassland forests

- the worker 788 from Washington moves 77 from himself
- the worker 988 from Boston prechops a forest
- the worker which built the road on the forested hill near the silk city prechops a forest and cancel his mission

- move workboat 41 from itself
- skip a turn with missionary
- move the settler from Washington to the nearer silk
- make sure that the road 788 from Boston is finished, then move the new settler from Boston 8888 from Boston
- make sure that the road 11 from NY is finished, then move the new settler from NY 114 from NY

 

[kossin]

Will check later, I have a few ideas.

 

[kossin]

T66
-Missionary: I slightly prefer 4-1 to reveal some foggy tiles

T67
-Delay research longer, we could always meet the 4th AI and gain 6% bonus or an AI learns Alphabet really early.
-Missionary 1, skip turn if safe

T68
-Missionary 1 then 9

T69
-Archer can go in forest by himself... unless there are 2 barb archers, he'll be fine (how do others feel about this? I'ma bit nervous about leaving canal city in the fog)
-I'd send missionary on sheep here.

T70
-Research to 100% (we get Sailing on T75)

T71
Might as well hit enter and save+upload T72.

All the worker moves+city micro are good

Didn't check the rest for now. All fogbusters move except the notherwest one and the Archer, of course. There are a 2 tiles S of Washington that could spawn a barb galley, but it's still too early, we can worry about that later.

 

[Deity player]

T66
-Missionary: I slightly prefer 4-1 to reveal some foggy tiles

T67
-Missionary 1, skip turn if safe

OK, sounds better.

T67
-Delay research longer, we could always meet the 4th AI and gain 6% bonus or an AI learns Alphabet really early.

T70
-Research to 100% (we get Sailing on T75)

I had the delay of Pottery in mind but forgot it. I will check that we will reach both Pottery and Sailing in time and change the plan.

T68
-Missionary 1 then 9

T69
-Archer can go in forest by himself... unless there are 2 barb archers, he'll be fine (how do others feel about this? I'ma bit nervous about leaving canal city in the fog)
-I'd send missionary on sheep here.

I don't have the game opened riht now but iirc, the canal city was partly fogbusted by our worker so it was safe. The workers in our cultural boarders do fogbust, don't they?

T71
Might as well hit enter and save+upload T72.

OK.

Didn't check the rest for now. All fogbusters move except the notherwest one and the Archer, of course. There are a 2 tiles S of Washington that could spawn a barb galley, but it's still too early, we can worry about that later.

So do you think that we don't need to fogbust water tiles yet? Then maybe, we could move some of our fogbusters back to cities even earlier (the 'silk warrior' and Scarecrow). I will check (but probably, this won't change anything anyway).

 

[Bebekija]

- Related to kossin/Duckweed discussion :
My attempt where the lack of a religion delayed Astro for 2 turns did use a switch to Taoism (or any other religion that would have spread to our city).
But keep in mind that this was based on an older save, and meanwhile, kossin improved his GP generation, so the actual delay now is probably closer to 3-4 turns


- You will find below my latest save using only Silver and Canal as GP farms. Everything is done @T106 researchwise but I couldn't make the civic switch in time, so it's really T107.
I stored some hammers on wonders before building some research, so there could be ~60 beakers more invested in CS. Also my worker micro during the last few turns was kinda sloppy, so there may be some room for improvement still.
I can't recall seeing one of kossin's T104 saves, so I don't know how it compares in terms of city develoment and improvements though. But it's still going to be inferior I think. Anyway take a look and tell me what you think.


-With that being said, and if we go with the 3 city option, I'm fine with the PPP as it is + kossin's corrections

 

[kossin]

OK, sounds better.

I had the delay of Pottery in mind but forgot it. I will check that we will reach both Pottery and Sailing in time and change the plan.

I don't have the game opened riht now but iirc, the canal city was partly fogbusted by our worker so it was safe. The workers in our cultural boarders do fogbust, don't they?

OK.

So do you think that we don't need to fogbust water tiles yet? Then maybe, we could move some of our fogbusters back to cities even earlier (the 'silk warrior' and Scarecrow). I will check (but probably, this won't change anything anyway).

Canal would still be spawnbusted (i.e. no barb spawning) but not fogbusted (no city spawning). My idea is to get the Archer safe to the forest and then keep canal city protected. If a barb city spawns there, we're screwed.

Moving current fog/spawn-busters: this is for later, no? Until cities are settled, no one is going to move.

- Related to kossin/Duckweed discussion :
My attempt where the lack of a religion delayed Astro for 2 turns did use a switch to Taoism (or any other religion that would have spread to our city).
But keep in mind that this was based on an older save, and meanwhile, kossin improved his GP generation, so the actual delay now is probably closer to 3-4 turns


- You will find below my latest save using only Silver and Canal as GP farms. Everything is done @T106 researchwise but I couldn't make the civic switch in time, so it's really T107.
I stored some hammers on wonders before building some research, so there could be ~60 beakers more invested in CS. Also my worker micro during the last few turns was kinda sloppy, so there may be some room for improvement still.
I can't recall seeing one of kossin's T104 saves, so I don't know how it compares in terms of city development and improvements though. But it's still going to be inferior I think. Anyway take a look and tell me what you think.


-With that being said, and if we go with the 3 city option, I'm fine with the PPP as it is + kossin's corrections

Triggering your GA by 1 turn might yield you a T106 result (did not check save as of writing this post).

I'll play quickly to T104 after checking your save. Remember, T104 is really dependent on AIs researching at least Alpha+IW+Calendar.

 

[Duckweed]

@Deity player

I have a little trouble of following your workers' location without opening the game. It's more clear to me if you could refer their location to city centers and resources only.

As I mentioned earlier, I did not feel well about the road on the pig tile. An alternative way is to move that worker directly to the forest hill, road it and then prechop, improve the pig right after the city is settled and then go back to chop that forest through road. A road on the hill is more useful than on the pig. However, it's just my thought, need your actual test to check it.

 

[Bebekija]

Triggering your GA by 1 turn might yield you a T106 result (did not check save as of writing this post).

Unfortunately I can't!
I absolutely need the golden age to start on T98 so I can have the 4th GP come out of NY on T104. After that, GP 5 and 6 are out on T105, and if I wanted to do the civic switch to Police State + Slavery, it would have to be then, but then the 7th GP could not be finished on T106.

With this order of GP generation, I can't seem to do better than this. Another possibility would be to pop the GS for Philo from Wash, but then we would have to run 2 scientists in Wash while we're trying to grow it, which kind of defeats the purpose of using only 2 cities. I may try it anyway if I find some time.

 

[Bebekija]

As I mentioned earlier, I did not feel well about the road on the pig tile. An alternative way is to move that worker directly to the forest hill, road it and then prechop, improve the pig right after the city is settled and then go back to chop that forest through road. A road on the hill is more useful than on the pig. However, it's just my thought, need your actual test to check it.

My first impulse would have been to go through the forested hill as well, but the explanation in kossin's post #720 seems to make sense. But again, I haven't tested the micro around Silk much, so I'm inclined to trust him on that.

 

[kossin]

I'll take a look into the Silk city micro, I have time for a good T66-T104 test now.

 

[Duckweed]

^^ Test it, I'm almost sure it's better in brain. The pig will be improved in 4 turns so that citizen can work on it right after culture border pops. Also granary will be still ready in time.

 

[kossin]

@Bebekija

Looked at your save.

+big cities
+high research capacity
+Calendar resources improved
+T86 Pyramids
-only 7 cities, NY in bad state
-Philly needs 15 worker turns
-silver not mined
?You are getting some free commerce from the East witches - this won't be the case until we can OB with them in the real game.
?How much dependent on building research were you? Hammers in Barracks would be better.
?Did you have to trade for any techs?

 

[Bebekija]

@Bebekija

Looked at your save.

+big cities
+high research capacity
+Calendar resources improved
+T86 Pyramids
-only 7 cities, NY in bad state
-Philly needs 15 worker turns
-silver not mined
?You are getting some free commerce from the East witches - this won't be the case until we can OB with them in the real game.
?How much dependent on building research were you? Hammers in Barracks would be better.
?Did you have to trade for any techs?

- Silver : yes this was a mistake, I sent both workers south after doing the basic improvements in Silver, I should have kept at least one around to mine the silver.
- Philly : again, I could have kept a couple workers there to put 2-3 more improvements, I chose to prioritize the commerce ressources in Wash at this point.

Besides, my estimate is that, overall, at least 5-6 worker turns were wasted because of my average micro skills.


- I don't think building research was critical here. NY, Canal, Silver, and Silk production was marginal, Wash and Boston were building wonders up until T103, and I think Philly finished building Granary + LH ~T96.
OTOH, my last turn of research was only 30%, and I had enough money to run it 100%.
So I think this is even.
The extra commerce from TRs is probably a big deal though

- I traded for Alpha+IW ~T85, Calendar~T95.

 

[kossin]

T104 test.

+It's T104, ready for total war (minus metal)
+54 pops total (vs 56 3 turns later), with copper city about to be settled
-we absolutely need to trade for: Alphabet, IW, Calendar. Not trading for Construction means we delay the Engineering bulb a bit. If any of these trades fail, we delay by ~3 turns [2 turns to tech, 1 turn to revolt].
-bulb Machinery, manually research Optics (need Calendar before T101), but saves ~150 beakers

The AIs in my try were snail-slow, I gave them Calendar to trade for it -_-

Regarding silk city: the road on the hill did not make any difference, we end up at the exact same food count because the road on pigs allows easier movement between the silk forest and the tiles to the south. >>The gained food is lost on worker movement, maybe there's a micro way around this, I have not checked yet.

EDIT: it might be 1f better with the hill road, I'm not sure.

 

[Deity player]

I am too much tired today but I will search for the difference between fogbustin and spawnbusting tomorrow, try to compare the silk city micro (although roading the pigs seemed as the best possibility for me) and do the needed changes in the PPP.

 

[Duckweed]

Regarding silk city: the road on the hill did not make any difference, we end up at the exact same food count because the road on pigs allows easier movement between the silk forest and the tiles to the south.

>>The gained food is lost on worker movement, maybe there's a micro way around this, I have not checked yet.

EDIT: it might be 1f better with the hill road, I'm not sure.

Don't know how did you do the worker micro after. What I see is chopping another 3 forests and then irrigating the farms. The road on hill also make the movement to the eastern forest and riverside tiles easier. Unless you did not chop that forest and irrigated the southern 2 non-riverside tiles 1st, then the road on the pig could let you improve farm those 2 non-riverside tiles faster, even so, you did not gain food in total and you lose commerce.

Moreover, you neglected the advantage of 3F for faster pig improvement. At least silk city can grow to size 2 one turn earlier, which means 1H1C from the silk tile. And possibly another faster pop later.

 

[kossin]

I don't care about T74-T90, the end result at T91 is all that matters to me, the more food on T91, the better.
In any case, I had more than enough food to spare either way.

What really concerns me is having sufficient research

 

[Duckweed]

So what gives you the better end result at T91 if you don't care about T74-T90 micro? I guess we can just move the game without PPP from now on.

 

[kossin]

EDIT: it might be 1f better with the hill road, I'm not sure.

Like I said, I didn't check but ^^^

EDIT: pigs first seems to be 2F better. Happy ?

 

[Duckweed]

I would be happy if you could figure it out earlier. After I clearly described the alternative worker moves, my feeling of those reactions is . It's time for me to.