SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks

[kossin]

Yea, it sure is. The bloody holy city disappeared after I had to remove an automatic religion spread.

Anyway, I'm fine with settler @5 in Boston, it makes it a lot easier on the silk city. I like to settle silk city first as it's the weakest farm and it makes managing GPP easier.

 

[Bebekija]

So.....any news with the PPP?

 

[Deity player]

I will try to bring the PPP today. I still have some difficulties with finding the optimal way so you will probably want to enhace the plan in many aspects .

 

[Deity player]

PPP

T66

- start settler in Washington

- move all 3 workers from the improved rice to the stone and build a quarry there
- move the new worker from Washington 3 from Washington

- move Boston warrior 7 from himself to the ivory
- heal on sentry the archer (required 2 turns)
- move missionary 4 from himself and then 2 from himself (the same as moving him 1 from himself)

T67 (worker in NY finished)

- start settler in NY
- Boston works rice+crab+oasis+stone
- set research to 100%

- the worker 3 from Washington chops down a forest
- the new worker from NY moves 2 from NY

- move Boston warrior 7 from himself
- move Toto 9 from himself (I will not repeat moves with Toto in the following turns, he will try to clear a trade route)
- move missionary 4 from himself and then 2 from himself (the same as moving him 1 from himself)

T68

- the worker from the improved deer moves 6 from himself (= 63 from NY = 41 from Washington)
- the worker 2 from NY chops down a forest
- move 1 worker from the improved stone to the gold
- move 1 worker from the improved stone 8 from himself (= 9 from Boston)
- move 1 worker from the improved stone 12 from himself (= 22 from Boston)

- move Boston warrior 7 from himself
- move missionary 1 from himself and if he sees no barbs, skip a turn with him and move archer to the same tile (4 from himself)

T69

- the worker 22 from Boston chops down a forest
- the worker 3 from Washington finishes chopping down a forest
- the worker 63 from NY chops down a forest
- the worker 9 from Boston chops down a forest
- the worker on the gold hill builds a mine

- move Boston warrior 3 from himself
- move missionary 7 from himself and if he sees no barbs, skip a turn with him and move archer to the same tile (7 from himself)

T70 (Pottery researched, workboat in Boston finished)

- set research to 0%
- start researching Metal Casting (to get a chance to trade for Sailing)
- Boston starts building a workboat

- move the worker 3 from Washington 2 from himself
- the worker 2 from NY finishes chopping a forest

- set Boston warrior on sentry
- move the new workboat from Boston 39 from itself (= 66 from Boston)
- move missionary 1 from himself and if he sees no barbs, skip a turn with him and move archer to the same tile (1 from himself)

T71 (settler in Washington finished)

- pause, save, report

General

- check possible tech, resource and commerce trades every turn
- if an AI offers Alpha for Math in his turn, ask him 'what would make this deal work' and then accept (but stop and report if an AI has Alpha in my turn)
- check barbs every turn
- if in doubt, stop and report

 

[kossin]

There are indeed many options here. I'll try to check later, busy day ahead.

 

[Bebekija]

Here are a few remarks on your PPP.

I'd like to point out that it's hard to judge the relevance of your worker moves without knowledge of what you intend to do in the next few turns after this turnset.
So please do not take the following as corrections (except maybe one), but rather as suggestions, from which we can start to discuss.


First, let me ask for a clarification: when you write "chops down a forest", do you mean chopping completely or just prechopping? Because if it's the former, I believe you're chopping too much in Wash and Boston : you'll be putting 2 chops in the Washington settler when 1 is probably enough, and I'd rather leave the forests near Boston for the granary + lighthouse.

I think the worker that comes out of NY should start the road towards Canal city, it has to be finished by the time the settler comes out, otherwise settling of Canal city is delayed by 1 turn.

Similarly, I'd rather have the first workboat out of Boston go south to reach Canal city. If you're sending it to Silver, it's too soon (Silver will not be settled until T75 and needs a border pop to work the fish) and if you're sending it to Silk, I believe it's a waste. It will be late anyways, so why not chop the workboat in Silk instead?

The trickiest point is the worker micro around Boston. There really is 1000 ways to do this, and I couldn't find the courage to go through all of them. But I think that instead of mining the gold first, it would be better to road first, then bring another worker (sparing one worker turn thanks to the brand new road) to mine in 2 turns.
But in the end it really depends on what we will be doing with the workers after that. For instance, we could have the first worker road, then bring 2 other workers on the gold to start on a mine immediately, while the first worker moves and keeps on roading to Silver (or prechopping, or...).
So we should get clear on the expected dates and locations of our future cites before we can tweak the worker micro perfectly.

 

[kossin]

That's why we need a plan until the completion of the 3 settlers. We need 6 workers in good locations and there are some things that must absolutely be done by then.

For example:
-mine vs chop in Washington
-2 chops in Boston is a must if we want the settler out early at size 5
-1 chop in Boston if we start settler at size 4
-road to Canal

There aren't too many ways to do this quick... so I suggest you try playing some tests until T91-94 and compare the end result. You will need to get the Philosophy GS and start working on the GP from Boston.

 

[Deity player]

Some answers:

@Bebe

I used the term 'chop down a forest' for prechoping and 'finish chopping a forest' for the actual chopping. I will make things clearer next time.

Mining the gold hill before the road was related with the decision of chopping with the other 2 workers near Boston.

The workboat was intended for the silk city.

@kossin

I will do some longer tests later.

@all

You did not comment my plan of researching MC yet. Does it mean that you agree ?

 

[kossin]

I did not comment the plan at all so far. From what I recall, we can accumulate some gold at 0% for a while but we need to find when's the latest we have to start on Sailing.

 

[Bebekija]

@all

You did not comment my plan of researching MC yet. Does it mean that you agree ?

Yes I'm fine with it. We need Sailing for the lighthouses though and Sailing will take 2-3 turns @100%

 

[LeftAdjoint]

Hey folks.

I've had good intentions, but unfortunately I think that I'm just not going to able to think about Civ very much this month. In short: I need to find a new thesis advisor, which is time- and energy-consuming, and makes it hard to commit to focusing on this thread every day.

I can still be on reserve for short bursts if we start to get short on players, and with any luck I can commit more in the later stages. If there are any vital issues that need an additional player or voice, feel free to send me a PM.

Sorry to be such a tease! The discussion looks really interesting and I wish I could participate more. But I'd also like to be "Dr." LeftAdjoint some day.

 

[kossin]

Playing the actual sets is a quick affair (until the warring starts!) while testing is currently taking the heavy time.

Take care, you can still drop by and voice your opinion

~~~

Roster updated. Down to "4" active players.

 

[Snaaty]

im still lurking in here once in a while = which is whenever i find a tiny bit of time

withing the next 2 weeks, things should calm down a bit and i still hope i can take the next turnset then (IF reinstalling civ fixes my issue with the bug mod, that is...)

 

[kossin]

I know, we have several lurkers but still 3-4 active players. I'm anxious to keep the game moving and finish early to go read other threads

EDIT: Can't test today, will try tomorrow instead.

 

[Duckweed]

To clarify, I won't play any more session, unless our team is down to 1 or 2 active players as SGOTM 12 and 13. I don't see that is going happen this time!

@Deity player

Every game can be divided into some major parts. Each part has a major goal and we need to consider all turns in the part as a whole. However, most of time, your session could not cover the whole part. In order to have better plan, we have to run the test game until you achieve the major goal.

Take this game fore example,

Final Goal: Fastest military victory.

Part 1: Scouting
Part 2: Oracle -- fastest CoL with reasonable REXing
Part 3: Set up GP farms -- to produce 7~8 GPs
Part 4: Generate GPs and acquire necessary war techs -- Astro + Eng
Part 5: Prepare the 1st SOD, scout and determine the 1st target -- Start of total war
Part 6: Sweep through the world -- Warring logistics

You are in the beginning of part 3, the short term goal of your current set is to produce 3 settlers and enable them to settle no later than T74~T75.

 

[Deity player]

^ Thanks for clarifying. In fact, I know what the goal of my current set is but I have many difficulties whith reachng it. The need of generating some GPP alongside, the need of having workers ready in time for the new cities, the need of chopping granaries in time... I admit that I don't invest so much time to testing as kossin or Bebe do in this part of the game so maybe this is the main problem... Simply, I was not able to generate a satisfying T75 save yet...

 

[Bebekija]

^ Thanks for clarifying. In fact, I know what the goal of my current set is but I have many difficulties whith reachng it. The need of generating some GPP alongside, the need of having workers ready in time for the new cities, the need of chopping granaries in time... I admit that I don't invest so much time to testing as kossin or Bebe do in this part of the game so maybe this is the main problem... Simply, I was not able to generate a satisfying T75 save yet...

Let me give you my humble opinion.

First you don't need to worry about providing a satisfying save. That was my mistake at first too.
Since kossin, Duckweed or Snaaty are more experienced/skilled than we are, it is almost certain that they will come up with better micro here and there, and correct the PPP accordingly.
What is important though is getting a feel of the different options you have in order to reach your goal, so you can choose between them and be able to defend your position in the discussion.

Also, don't worry about GPP generation for now (just remember to let NY grow after the settler).
All you have to worry about is to get out 3 settlers, and have two workers in position when their respective cities are settled. This will inevitably take some sacrifices, whether on commerce, hammers, improvements...
The point of testing here is not to provide the best save ever, it's to find out which sacrifices make you feel the most comfortable (i.e. better shape of the empire) by the end of your turnset

To sum up, don't put too much pressure on yourself.
To be honest, now that the overall strategy has been defined and our goals are clear, I'd rather have an imperfect game moving at a reasonable pace (i.e. faster than it currently is) than having to spend 3 or 4 weeks planning the perfect turnset, even if it loses us the laurels. There's a reason why I applied for the Ducks and not OSS.....



Now with that being said, I've tested a few things last night :
- I'm definitely against settler @ size 4 : if we finish the WB, the settler comes out later than at size 5 (assuming only one chop), and if we don't finish the WB, then we should have started immediately the settler @ size 3, which is too late now.
The only good thing compared to settler @ size 5 is that it uses 1 less improved tile during the building of the settler, which translates either in a gain in worker turns or a better tile worked in Wash (GLH instead of Spices). Hardly worth it if you ask me

- I tried using the worker in Wash to mine the riverside PH instead of chopping, and I have to say I like it. It means a later settler though, because one worker can't both mine and put a chop in the settler. But after that, having good production available is beneficial for a faster 7th worker, granary, and the Mids.
I'll have to try it again tonight as I didn't have much time yesterday to fully test it, but it's definitely worth considering.

- The cutoff for Sailing is T78 (start a lighthouse in both Canal and silver), so we should put the slider 100% on Sailing on T75, not later.

 

[kossin]

Fastest settler in Wash: mine the non-riverside PH with 2 workers

Fastest settler in Boston: start T67 at size 4 with 1 chop

Fastest settler in NY: start after worker with 1 chop

This is a real headache, as we also have to balance out getting workers where they need to be for optimal city growth when they are settled (btw, I haven't checked this in a long time).

Can we get a few T75 saves trying out the different approaches? They need not be perfect of course, just the general positioning of workers and workboats as well as improvements.

 

[Bebekija]

I'll try to provide saves tonight as I will have a few hours available to play.

As for optimal growth, a few days ago I ran some "theoretical" tests, worldbuilding some workers/workboats and putting everything else in the empire on hold.
My best results were achieved with the following setups at the moment the cities are settled:
- Silver : 2 workers ready to chop the forest 1S of the pigs, with the forest 1SW of the fish already prechopped, and a workboat ready to improve the fish as soon as the borders pop
- Canal : 1 worker on the hill 1E of the city with the forest prechopped, 1 worker on the sheep, workboat ready (which we know is not possible in our game @ T73)
- Silk : to be honest I never really put too much effort in this city ; the bulk of my testing was done under the assumption that we would only be using NY, Canal and Silver as secondary GP farms, so most of the time I didn't even settle it.

If I can, I'll try to go over these tests again tonight as well

 

[kossin]

My understanding was that getting Silk city works best for the gpp plan. If it is not required (i.e. can you finish GPP prior to or on T104?) then let's stop breaking our heads open and plan something a lot easier.