SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Manco Capac]

The GG I believe is going to CornTown or EastPort since it is closer. I figured on its way there it could likely track Hatsegawa's stack and still make it in time.

If the GG can get to WestPort faster and in sync with when we expect to have optics finished and a boat then maybe WestPort is better. If so I wouldn't follow Hatsegawa's stack with the GG.

I just looked and true it takes 13-14 turns for the GG to accede WestPort. For EastPort, it is 8-9 turns. And following the SoD to reckon imminent danger can be nice.

Question, to trigger a DoW, can another SoD trigger it or the initial SoD is the one that start it in all cases. If the constraint is put on this specific SoD, then easy to bode the DoW date.

Indeed, Westport can be attractive if we get a GScientist and bulb Optics, but the knowledge of such action won't happen before 4 turns, letting the GG run away quite a stretch. Better take the safe route. Anyways, we don't know yet if Lizagawa's gonna get Optics not getting a GScientist. We may be unlucky and wait another 10 turns or more. I just hope access to the team doesn't require Middleport (next to old Gateway).

 

[mabraham]

Thanks. I vaguely remember your first tests about christianity out of mediation...

But why necessarily the team being the founder of islam?

I see philosophy is won by Lizagawa. CoL was possibly won by the same too.

Do anyone have recollection whom get Theology? While making contact who did have theology?

Liz had Theol and CoL T108, shortly after we met her. Liz has Angkor Wat now, so probably had Philo fairly early too. No Gawas we'd met had Theol T108. So it's probably not clear whether the team or Liz founded some of the later religions.

----------------

Goal of today: make a turn to know what Lizagawa up to.
So stay tuned.

In regards to PPP format, don't expect complete PPP, because I won't make it; I prefer to remain flexible to many changes that could. Main tactics/strategies that requires long preparation beforehand will be written down, but specifics that can changes freely may not be put on PPP when occuring 10 turns later. We are at a stage of a finishing game where many builds are wealth (for helping stealing, etc.) and units/diplo control are main objective. I don't want to feed a complete PPP if I have to wait two-three days before committing playing and oops that event just screwed the PPP in a radical way.

Peace.

Let's get to work now.

@WastinTime You can ask DanF directly; he's very helpful person to person. a.k.a. Nope I haven't a clue of localization inner working.

Yeah, we're past the time that we need (or can afford) specific micro with team discussion and agreement. It's worth planning out something like the Hatse teleport rort, but once we've established the general nature of the plan, we have to trust the active player to just do it. Adapting our strategy to the situation is proving hard enough without trying to have detailed tactics that might have to change too.

 

[bcool]

Thanks. I vaguely remember your first tests about christianity out of mediation...

But why necessarily the team being the founder of islam?

I see philosophy is won by Lizagawa. CoL was possibly won by the same too.

Do anyone have recollection whom get Theology? While making contact who did have theology?

The religion debate isn't that important is it?
Anyways I assumed that the religions were being founded by the Team AI for 2 reasons.
1) Toku personalities have science and military tech flavors
2) When all the religions have been founded it has always said a distant civilization has founded the religion. We didn't know Liz for a long time so I suppose she could have founded one or more of the religions.

I was also under the mistaken belief that the F7 (religious advisor) screen showed which civilization founded each religion. But it seems that it only shows that we haven't found the holy city of those religions.

We really can't know that philosophy or CoL was won by Lizgawa since we haven't met the teamAI. IIRC Liz knew Theology when we met her, but again the TeamAI could have beaten her.

I suppose a lot of our assumptions about having a potential trade route to the TeamAI could be wrong if Liz founded all the religions. But it really does seem unlikely she founded them as a Toku personality. However I could be wrong.

----------------

Goal of today: make a turn to know what Lizagawa up to.
So stay tuned.

In regards to PPP format, don't expect complete PPP, because I won't make it; I prefer to remain flexible to many changes that could. Main tactics/strategies that requires long preparation beforehand will be written down, but specifics that can changes freely may not be put on PPP when occuring 10 turns later. We are at a stage of a finishing game where many builds are wealth (for helping stealing, etc.) and units/diplo control are main objective. I don't want to feed a complete PPP if I have to wait two-three days before committing playing and oops that event just screwed the PPP in a radical way.

Peace.

Let's get to work now.

@WastinTime You can ask DanF directly; he's very helpful person to person. a.k.a. Nope I haven't a clue of localization inner working.

Yes I'm happy with main tactics/strategies, less detail is okay with me.

 

[bcool]

I just looked and true it takes 13-14 turns for the GG to accede WestPort. For EastPort, it is 8-9 turns. And following the SoD to reckon imminent danger can be nice.

Question, to trigger a DoW, can another SoD trigger it or the initial SoD is the one that start it in all cases. If the constraint is put on this specific SoD, then easy to bode the DoW date.

Indeed, Westport can be attractive if we get a GScientist and bulb Optics, but the knowledge of such action won't happen before 4 turns, letting the GG run away quite a stretch. Better take the safe route. Anyways, we don't know yet if Lizagawa's gonna get Optics not getting a GScientist. We may be unlucky and wait another 10 turns or more. I just hope access to the team doesn't require Middleport (next to old Gateway).

I have to assume that a different SoD can trigger it. If we trap Hatsegawa's stack in hole in Tokugawa's culture she might wait to DoW until she has another stack built up, but I doubt it would stop her from declaring war. Is an AI really limited to just 1 SoD? It can't be.

 

[mabraham]

Attached is a map illustrating what we can deduce from the two known Islamic cities (shown in khaki colour), remembering the effect of world wrap. The most likely scenario is that these two cities are nearly equidistant from the holy city - obviously there's a wide range of scenarios that are possible, but this is the most probable. Tiles where this is very nearly true are indicated with "1". So Liz or somewhere to the north are the most likely locations for the holy city of Islam.

Since we only know one Christian and Tao city, we cannot do a similar triangulation for them.

 

[mabraham]

Who founded what religion is not really a profitable side track... if the pair AI founded them then we have a trade route that might need a caravel to spread Hinduism. If Liz founded them then we probably need a caravel to spread Hinduism.

 

[mabraham]

Here's a minor thing. You're probably planning to explore that tiny, unrevealed patch of Hatty's land east of the "LizArcher" spot. My thought is: Let's plan to have a unit somewhere around there, on the coast, when we get Optics. The extra water visibility might be enough to get us contact if someone is down there. I can't think of another location where we might be able to do this up in Cyrus' area, but look around for one.

Good idea, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. We will have a trireme near our island that can become a caravel to get some scouting of the ocean down there.

Edit clarifying: if that caravel can get through, either we find a member of the AI pair or we find they're not there. If there's a mountain range blocking the caravel and it doesn't find the culture of a member of the AI pair, there's probably not room for that AI to have 80+ land culture tiles on the other side of the range, and have evaded notice so far.

 

[Manco Capac]

The religion debate isn't that important is it?

Religion is not the main interest, but holy cities yes,
I was trying to see where the team could be. I blitzed through older posts seeing three different maps from mabraham; probably I overlooked it was already discussed.

 

[mabraham]

I just looked and true it takes 13-14 turns for the GG to accede WestPort. For EastPort, it is 8-9 turns. And following the SoD to reckon imminent danger can be nice.

Question, to trigger a DoW, can another SoD trigger it or the initial SoD is the one that start it in all cases. If the constraint is put on this specific SoD, then easy to bode the DoW date.

Indeed, Westport can be attractive if we get a GScientist and bulb Optics, but the knowledge of such action won't happen before 4 turns, letting the GG run away quite a stretch. Better take the safe route. Anyways, we don't know yet if Lizagawa's gonna get Optics not getting a GScientist. We may be unlucky and wait another 10 turns or more. I just hope access to the team doesn't require Middleport (next to old Gateway).

GG should go to Eastport, I think.

 

[bcool]

embargo limitations?

If we have Liz and Toku close borders with each other would they be able to get open borders again next turn since they share a war?

Does the time where they refuse to talk to each other after an embargo prevent this?

 

[mabraham]

We need to bear in mind that the land NW of Shaka is on the main continent (culture will not extend that far across water unless it is the same land mass), as are the mountains west of Babylon. So there must be a peninsula extending from either the land NW of Shaka, or from the extreme southern mountain range (or both!) that creates the Babylon ridge. Presumably also it creates the ridge west of our island.

 

[bcool]

Late spies?

The problem with late spies is that we will have to
1)pay a premium on the techs they steal by not waiting for the 50% bonus
2)reduce the chance another spy has to steal a tech that has a better stationary bonus

So if we want to steal techs T126 then a spy that arrives T125 doesn't help much at all.
A spy that arrives T125 will have 0% stationary bonus on T126 and it will reduce the chances that the spies that have been there a long time will have to steal techs successfully.

Arriving T125 and stealing T126 is particularly bad since the odds of success go up a lot if you have 10% stationary bonus.

Having spies ready to jump into the city the turn we plan to steal is good because we could potential steal techs on T126 and delay recapturing the cities until T128.
So replacement spies jump in T126 after steals. T127 wait. T128 with 10% stationary bonus steal or flip Liz's religion/tech, then T128 retake the cities.

However, There is a distinct risk that if we give Liz an extra turn to build units in Trojan Horse and LizTown she will buy defenders. A protective longbow will be a lot for an axe to handle.

I don't know what the risk is that she will buy defensive units.

If the risk is high then we might want to flip her civics with one of the existing high stationary bonus spies. Then with spies that jump in and could steal T128 we could potentially steal CoL or other techs we might want.

 

[Manco Capac]

embargo limitations?

If we have Liz and Toku close borders with each other would they be able to get open borders again next turn since they share a war?

Does the time where they refuse to talk to each other after an embargo prevent this?

First, doesn't Liz being at war with everyone except Genghisgawa.
You meant Hatshegawa right? Because Liz has no OB with anyone right now, not even Genghisgawa.

Well, I have seen in my test games once two Toku are CAUTIOUS to each, the OB treaty is no longer available within the same turn.
But both Toku and are PLEASED to each other quite strongly.

I think the fact Kaitzilla's OB re-enabling comes from the fact he passed from CAUTIOUS to PLEASED again, overlooking the cool down attitude when cutting bridges with a Toku. A theory without back up though. Someone may test.
Lot of works for me right now. Not counting the possible testing of Kai's "crazy "tactic.

 

[bcool]

First, doesn't Liz being at war with everyone except Genghisgawa.
You meant Hatshegawa right? Because Liz has no OB with anyone right now, not even Genghisgawa.

Well, I have seen in my test games once two Toku are CAUTIOUS to each, the OB treaty is no longer available within the same turn.
But both Toku and are PLEASED to each other quite strongly.

I think the fact Kaitzilla's OB re-enabling comes from the fact he passed from CAUTIOUS to PLEASED again, overlooking the cool down attitude when cutting bridges with a Toku. A theory without back up though. Someone may test.
Lot of works for me right now. Not counting the possible testing of Kai's "crazy "tactic.

Sorry I meant if we have Hatse and Toku close borders then they might open them again since they are both at war with Liz.

 

[Manco Capac]

Late spies?

Thanks for the recall. I vaguely remember people wanted more spies.
In other words, you want a spy that jumps in a city once the last spy has made his job?

Out of curiosity, will Liz accept both cities for certain?
With which city I start the steal or perhaps the civic change is better for TrojanHorse because the first spy will have the worst odds. Indeed, a fail change of civics is less important than a fail in tech robbery.

 

[Manco Capac]

Sorry I meant if we have Hatse and Toku close borders then they might open them again since they are both at war with Liz.

Yeah, I thought it was a fear of a sudden OB jeopardizing mainland again. Hard to tell when PLEASED if they make contract at the first moment or wait a little. In my test about Hatshe DoWing reversely to Toku, it sometimes took time before enabling OB even being PLEASED to each other.

But I think testing about the passage from CAUTIOUS to PLEASED enables OB faster is necessary. Kaitzilla did not precise its personal conditions. I wouldn't be surprise it is another kind of bug.
But given 100% chance they still PLEASED to each other after closing border, then a cool down period shall take its effect. How many turns? I don't know. I think it is probabilistic...

Or perhaps share wars has a special perk to enable faster OB after closure, but I think it has more to do with the diplo modifier than the act of joining war.

I think in 15 mins, the 1-turn PPP should be ready. Indeed, I only need a consensus, no time to wait all the team. We need to go on.

 

[bcool]

Thanks for the recall. I vaguely remember people wanted more spies.
In other words, you want a spy that jumps in a city once the last spy has made his job?

Out of curiosity, will Liz accept both cities for certain?
With which city I start the steal or perhaps the civic change is better for TrojanHorse because the first spy will have the worst odds. Indeed, a fail change of civics is less important than a fail in tech robbery.

Yes 2 spies to jump in once all spies have made their attempts. Ideally one for each city. Yes she will take both cities.

The civic switch might not be necessary. We might want to just risk she buys units and get a 4th shot at stealing.

Retaking the cities is something we probably can delay if we have to.

We need to prevent others from taking them (but we can close borders and open them again as long as we are both at war with Liz to prevent this)

And we only need to retake them if we want Liz out of Hindu so we can renew the Holy war with her on T136 if that is even possible. Peace treaties prevent the Holy war option, so Hammuragawa could make peace with Liz and then we would start losing shared war bonuses with Hammuragawa.
We probably will be able to bribe Hammuragawa into war with Liz the old fashion way so the holy war option might not be necessary or even possible. So Liz can likely keep her cities or we can mount a massive assault on them if we need to take them back (and assuming the worst that she has bought several protective longbows for them).


So this is what I recommend... (I really want to know if she is researching optics to make this easier)

Assuming she is researching optics
0) rack up enough espionage to steal machinery, compass, optics and CoL
1) steal machinery, compass, optics, (using all 4 spies if necessary)
1.5) steal CoL if all spies successful
2) position 2 spies to jump into the cities after we have used all 4 spies
3) use backup spies for backup things like CoL or flipping her to Hinduism

DoW her and attempt to take back the cities (safest thing to do I think) but we must see what the situation is like before we can make this decision. Be ready to do this in any case

If she isn't researching optics reassess...

 

[bcool]

Gotta go, trust others to give you the okay Tachy. Good luck.

 

[Manco Capac]

Important question: Our SoD for EastPort will consist of all axes and the sword and the nearest cata that might work along the teleportation. Leaving the archer and other units in mainland.

That is what I have in thoughts. Yours?

 

[mabraham]

Important question: Our SoD for EastPort will consist of all axes and the sword and the nearest cata that might work along the teleportation. Leaving the archer and other units in mainland.

That is what I have in thoughts. Yours?

Yep, keep the archer home. Send any other unit that can make the cutoff. The units near Hammu's border should probably position around CowTown so we can be sure of recapturing Liz cities when we need to after stealing.