SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Manco Capac]

Oh la la. Now I regret to have been neglectful the past three days.
Okay I'll try to make up fast. Today is too late.

Got...it.

 

[mabraham]

Oh la la. Now I regret to have been neglectful the past three days.
Okay I'll try to make up fast. Today is too late.

Got...it.

No worries (or rush). I think the general plan arising from the discussion is to settle NW, tech Masonry-Hunting-X where X is BW or Wheel, build SH in capital and start TGW in second city while growing to size 2 working deer until gold mine until deer camp are available.

Do we want to have a city naming policy? Being able to name a city before we found it is useful in discussions.

 

[Manco Capac]

No worries (or rush).

This message is just reassuring people I am not gone away.
Just...I barely logged in few times today for few minutes (i.e. 1-5 min). I couldn't reach the computer for a long time, at least enough to do something productive.
I'll try to make something later. At least to sparkle some discussions of what I did wrong in my pre-ppp choices. &

 

[bcool]

I'm trying to lay out a grand strategy assuming a Religious Leader Victory

Goal Religious Leader Victory

Stonehenge early to give options for repeated city gifts later (and to help get early great prophets to build Hindu Holy City Building? and Bulb Theology?)
Assuming we need caravels to reach everyone we will take metal casting with the Oracle
Bulb Machinery and optics with either a great engineer and great scientist or time 2 great scientists before we are ready to bulb theology (and avoid fishing & meditation other tech to avoid?)
spread hinduism via Hindu Holy City, city gifts, missionaries and other creative means to get open borders?

Get 1 AI to friendly by flipping him to Hinduism and engaging in a holy war?

Weakest part might be getting hinduism to all the AI.

A lot of speculation here, but...
If we meet a Toku on another continent how are we going to get him to pleased quick enough to open borders and spread hinduism?
If there is land near them to settle maybe settle a city nearby, spread hinduism, city gift is possible, but then we would need astronomy

If there is no land near them are we screwed? Do we need to plan a path to Banking so we can adopt their favorite civic mercantilism?

Scouting seems like it is a high priority. We need to know how hard it is going to be to reach and convert the other AI. A scouting spy is a high priority I would think. And a scouting workboat is a high priority. Maybe the NW Deer/Gold city should be coastal so we can get a workboat out sooner rather than later? With a likely hindu spread, and with Stonehenge soonish we could get a border pop relatively soon, but clearly not having the deer in the initial fat cross would be a big sacrifice/gamble.

 

[Manco Capac]

I updated the lands near Toku of Japan. Looks way off from my principal duty, but I want to test where Toku will settle considering nothing interesting presents itself on the east flank of mountains.

And how fast...rather spedulation I know.
I know there were some discussions city north (gold/deer) vs the lush rivery deer, gold and possibly sheeps.
I want to measure the risk because the settling is right on my turn-set.

Does someone measure some slight acceleration of Agriculture while teching it? It would be an indication if Toku had grain resource in his capital. Where there some already techs? I think someone mentioned it somewhere.

EDIT: Rather brilliant. I don't know how to add an additional AI. I will take Monty of Zulu.
Shouldn't be a huge difference I think being agressive and spiritual. Just to take in account two turns of anarchy shaved. Gave up idea. A new map was made just for Toku behaviour.

 

[mabraham]

Assuming we need caravels to reach everyone we will take metal casting with the Oracle
Bulb Machinery and optics with either a great engineer and great scientist or time 2 great scientists before we are ready to bulb theology (and avoid fishing & meditation other tech to avoid?)

...

Scouting seems like it is a high priority. We need to know how hard it is going to be to reach and convert the other AI. A scouting spy is a high priority I would think. And a scouting workboat is a high priority. Maybe the NW Deer/Gold city should be coastal so we can get a workboat out sooner rather than later? With a likely hindu spread, and with Stonehenge soonish we could get a border pop relatively soon, but clearly not having the deer in the initial fat cross would be a big sacrifice/gamble.

We can't have a workboat without Fishing, and if we do, we can't bulb Mach with a scientist until we have Sailing and Calendar. (And Compass, but that's not such a big deal.) So if we want a scouting workboat (who will probably get blocked as soon as we meet AI culture, and whose discoveries will get out-stripped fast by caravels) for

• the chance of meeting more AIs sooner, or
• finding land we want to settle across the water,

we'll have to accept the price of either

• teching the apparently useless Calendar on the way to our fast Optics, or
• bulbing Mach with a GEngineer.

If we want the workboat fast, then we'll have to accept a price on settling either our next city, or one down the road (though maybe the gems site is fine on the coast). The former would slow down TGW, or the second worker, or both. It may prevent the TGW-fueled border pops across the northern water that I was hoping might meet distant AIs.

Then again, we'll want several caravels fast, and the coastal deer-gems site will be a good one for that at the time. It's OK at size 5 working deer camp, gold mine and three Gmines. Or add another farm and Gmine to taste.

On balance, I like not teching fishing.

 

[mabraham]

A good test of Toku's behaviour might be to reproduce what we know of the land, allow him to settle, WorldBuild castle and Buddhism and give him nothing much to settle on the far side of him. Then see what dates he settles where. I don't have time for that today, however.

 

[Manco Capac]

A good test of Toku's behaviour might be to reproduce what we know of the land, allow him to settle, WorldBuild castle and Buddhism and give him nothing much to settle on the far side of him. Then see what dates he settles where. I don't have time for that today, however.

I am working on it. On another random map where his only choices are to settle westward. Of course, it is hard to assume all the hidden variables. A riverside corn in the fog changes a lot the result. For now, I assume the uncovered tile north of sheep is nothing. Might be a hidden resource, but not known to Toku for now (the output seen by him is still like a normal grass tile).

Do you have the autosaves of your turnset; you were teching Agriculture while playing. Before knowing Hamuragawa, I might see if he has gone for Agri.

Last question: are you all for the deer/corn city one tile off coast or some doubt are still present?
I did not scrutinize with depth your test games. You have a feeling which one is strongest short-term.

As I said, the settler settling choice is prime importance in my turn-set. The rest is less complicated. After settler SH according to DanF's trick and ...etc.

 

[mabraham]

A good test of Toku's behaviour might be to reproduce what we know of the land, allow him to settle, WorldBuild castle and Buddhism and give him nothing much to settle on the far side of him. Then see what dates he settles where. I don't have time for that today, however.

... and frankly I think we're too late to change our decision about where to settle first. We've positioned Burke and maybe delayed Cook accordingly.

 

[mabraham]

Do you have the autosaves of your turnset; you were teching Agriculture while playing. Before knowing Hamuragawa, I might see if he has gone for Agri.

Attached zipfile of my saves

 

[mabraham]

Last question: are you all for the deer/corn city one tile off coast or some doubt are still present?
I did not scrutinize with depth your test games. You have a feeling which one is strongest short-term.

Settling on the river to get the trade route (mostly for stone access for TGW, fail or complete) and to work gold and deer in the inner ring is very strong. Nothing else is as good as fast - there's no other site that has all of those attributes, and most of the next-best options require AH+Wheel (and maybe border pop) to be comparable.

 

[Manco Capac]

... and frankly I think we're too late to change our decision about where to settle first. We've positioned Burke and maybe delayed Cook accordingly.

Yes, this is true. Even more complexing are the animals (especially the bear) around Amundsen. To make the settler trek as safe as possible, killing the lion is almost necessary via forest defense (means already taking the promo) and then go onto hill and finally one tile west to escort decently the settler. Even so, the warrior might be terrible wounded, enough to be killed by a wolf.

Does it mean the tests are completely unnecessary (for now)? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying making unnecessary tests. I saw your doubt about settling north lest to lose the great city location near Toku to his profit.

 

[Manco Capac]

BTW, just to make sure. I think AI settles according to blue circle. The main point of this test is which one (priority) and when.

 

[mabraham]

Yes, this is true. Even more complexing are the animals (especially the bear) around Amundsen. To make the settler trek as safe as possible, killing the lion is almost necessary via forest defense (means already taking the promo) and then go onto hill and finally one tile west to escort decently the settler. Even so, the warrior might be terrible wounded, enough to be killed by a wolf.

Does it mean the tests are completely unnecessary (for now)? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying making unnecessary tests. I saw your doubt about settling north lest to lose the great city location near Toku to his profit.

I wouldn't bother testing at this stage. I am afraid of losing the site near Toku, but in the short term the NW is better, and if we get both then we are in superb shape for the SGOTM contest. And there is serious risk with trying to settle out there now with (sub-)minimal escort. Toku may settle the site ineffectively and let us get a deer-gold-sheep site. He may build too many units. He may settle elsewhere. The forests may slow him down enough. The animals might get his escort (I wish).

 

[Manco Capac]

I wouldn't bother testing at this stage. I am afraid of losing the site near Toku, but in the short term the NW is better, and if we get both then we are in superb shape for the SGOTM contest. And there is serious risk with trying to settle out there now with (sub-)minimal escort. Toku may settle the site ineffectively and let us get a deer-gold-sheep site. He may build too many units. He may settle elsewhere. The forests may slow him down enough. The animals might get his escort (I wish).

Just finished my side-test game and the behaviour was surprinsing given the agg AI and all settings for this particular SGTOM.

With a riverside corn and central PH (I foggazed):

T10
T26 - Toku's second border pop
T27 - Settler.
T28 - Toku escorts his settler with one archer out the two initial ones. 1NE.
T29 - 1NE.
T30 - 1N.
T31 - 1NE. Settles for corn and sheeps.
T39 - He builds a rax.
T51 - He gets BW. And another settler.

Looks like our game is suboptimal. Otherwise, WastinTime would've seen culture via culture patterns button. Or perhaps, we got lucky and better lands are proposed to the east.
If we place the city next to sheeps, then we might keep it for a long time being in the first culture ring.

His second city is terribly positioned. That is weird.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Second try (New seed option on):

Toku was a complete idiot this time. Instead going for Agri first, he has gone for sailing and this slowed him down. Settler was out on T31. Way less efficient than the last time.
Looks like the tech order was after all completely random as I suspected.
He settles at the position, but on T35.
At least, we all know where Toku will settle.

 

[Manco Capac]

Tech choice:

Finish Masonry (For T32)
Then Hunting (5 turns).
The Wheel for making a trade route between second city (near Toku) and the marble. The rivers will make the remaining connexion.

Masonry => Hunting => Wheel

Cities:

Delhi:

After settler completion (T30) , SH is the next goal. Masonry is researched next turn, making stone active for doubling production rate before the hammers are banked.
Afterwards, I think we produce three warriors and time all this to get pop 4 while completing the 3rd warrior. I will more in detail mabraham's test game.
On T40, the warrior is one turn before completion, same for next level of city growth.

T32 founding turn -Bombay

On foundation, the first build is a worker, working the deer tile.
When the gold is improved (T35), I switch the worked tile to gold to speed up teching.

Workers:

Eiffel:
On T29, he invests one last turn to the FP, then rush to the gold tile; he ready upon city founding to improve (T32). On T35, he goes on deer tile. On T36, he starts to improve the tile until finished. Wake up function unnecessary here.


Explorers with clubs:

Amundsen:
Will avoid the lion and bear unless someone wants to take its chance against the lion.
Will stay for fogbusting around the gold or go near fish area to uncover fogged tiles in search of seafoods.

Burke:
Will continue its periple once the second city is settled.

Third warrior (Columbus): May explore or stay there against barbs. Your choice?


Espionage:
Always on Hamuragawa.

Stopping points:

Meet a new AI.
A dilemma regarding animals.
An info that breaks the planned game.
New culture pattern.
Near impossible but if it happens loss of SH.
Resource popping on a worked hill (when that RNG starts?)

Miscellaneous:

Take screenshots of the demographics screen,
Look for AI culture in sattelite view,
Save game,
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals appearing etc.

 

[Manco Capac]

Here's three screenshots I took. Two representing the mountains wall south and north of Toku. The last is a foggazing of (PH?) below Toku capital. Anyways, I'm sure there is hill, just to make the city even more unreachable. River for more win.

Okay, I'm off for a long moment I guess.

EDIT: lol 1337 posts= leet. Yes, Kakumeika is leet (not the hacking definition, the other! )

 

[neilmeister]

EDIT: lol 1337 posts= leet. Yes, Kakumeika is leet (not the hacking definition, the other! )

... and you are 31337 Tachy.

 

[mabraham]

Tech choice:

Finish Masonry (For T32)
Then Hunting (5 turns).
The Wheel for making a trade route between second city (near Toku) and the marble. The rivers will make the remaining connexion.

Masonry => Hunting => Wheel

I think testing shows that BW before Wheel makes for a faster TGW - see post 499. Eiffel does T29 FPfarm, T30-1 move, T32-5 gold mine, T36 move, T37-40 deer camp, lurk a little while building a river Gmine waiting for BW, three turns chop on the worker (but build TGW while growing to size 2), then at about T46-7 move to southern deer for roads. If we get SH T38, then the next settler is not moving until at least about T48, which gives time to have the road in place before settling.

People should please have a go at the test game - I'm sure my games can be improved upon! New minds consider new solutions...

Cities:

Delhi:

After settler completion (T30) , SH is the next goal. Masonry is researched next turn, making stone active for doubling production rate before the hammers are banked.
Afterwards, I think we produce three warriors and time all this to get pop 4 while completing the 3rd warrior. I will more in detail mabraham's test game.
On T40, the warrior is one turn before completion, same for next level of city growth.

I'm not sure if I understand you - I think there is a window for about one (new) warrior after SH before we grow to size four. That will be the third warrior we've produced in total. I don't think we want three new warriors at that point. I think we want the next settler ASAP regardless of what Toku has done in the meantime.

T32 founding turn -Bombay

On foundation, the first build is a worker, working the deer tile.
When the gold is improved (T35), I switch the worked tile to gold to speed up teching.

I think the discussion leading to post 499 above wants to grow to size two on TGW (or something else very useful) working deer until the gold mine is up, then deer camp when it is up. The alternative of worker first gets the worker faster, but spends more turns not working the gold mine, and more turns only working one improved tile. I have spreadsheets to back that up if we need that level of detail. Also the later worker can be sped up with a chop if we get BW first, which my test games suggested would work nicely.

Workers:

Eiffel:
On T29, he invests one last turn to the FP, then rush to the gold tile; he ready upon city founding to improve (T32). On T35, he goes on deer tile. On T36, he starts to improve the tile until finished. Wake up function unnecessary here.


Explorers with clubs:

Amundsen:
Will avoid the lion and bear unless someone wants to take its chance against the lion.
Will stay for fogbusting around the gold or go near fish area to uncover fogged tiles in search of seafoods.

I'd like us to end up fortified on the hill 1W of corn, but we should start with at least one move NW to try to get to safety to heal. Given what we will likely do with this warrior, I think Combat I will be best. Applying it before healing will save a turn healing, but if we might then spend a turn dodging the bear, the promotion-heal has been wasted. I think in this case we should promote only when we are facing combat.

Burke:
Will continue its periple once the second city is settled.

I don't know what you mean by "periple".

Third warrior (Columbus): May explore or stay there against barbs. Your choice?

I like scouting more NW.

Espionage:
Always on Hamuragawa.

Stopping points:

Meet a new AI.
A dilemma regarding animals.
An info that breaks the planned game.
New culture pattern.
Near impossible but if it happens loss of SH.
Resource popping on a worked hill (when that RNG starts?)

Miscellaneous:

Take screenshots of the demographics screen,
Look for AI culture in sattelite view,
Save game,
Note (using Alt+S) forest/jungle growth, animals appearing etc.

Rest looks good.

 

[mabraham]

Just finished my side-test game and the behaviour was surprinsing given the agg AI and all settings for this particular SGTOM.

With a riverside corn and central PH (I foggazed):

T10
T26 - Toku's second border pop
T27 - Settler.
T28 - Toku escorts his settler with one archer out the two initial ones. 1NE.
T29 - 1NE.
T30 - 1N.
T31 - 1NE. Settles for corn and sheeps.
T39 - He builds a rax.
T51 - He gets BW. And another settler.

Looks like our game is suboptimal. Otherwise, WastinTime would've seen culture via culture patterns button. Or perhaps, we got lucky and better lands are proposed to the east.
If we place the city next to sheeps, then we might keep it for a long time being in the first culture ring.

His second city is terribly positioned. That is weird.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Second try (New seed option on):

Toku was a complete idiot this time. Instead going for Agri first, he has gone for sailing and this slowed him down. Settler was out on T31. Way less efficient than the last time.
Looks like the tech order was after all completely random as I suspected.
He settles at the position, but on T35.
At least, we all know where Toku will settle.

Thanks. Toku will also settle considering invisible resources, no? So we can't bank absolutely on anything.