SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'm trying to lay out a grand strategy assuming a Religious Leader Victory

Goal Religious Leader Victory

Stonehenge early to give options for repeated city gifts later (and to help get early great prophets to build Hindu Holy City Building? and Bulb Theology?)

I still don't like building the Hindu Shrine. Bulbing Code of Laws after Theology and founding of Confucianism may be a better idea as shulec suggested.

Assuming we need caravels to reach everyone we will take metal casting with the Oracle. Bulb Machinery and optics with either a great engineer and great scientist or time 2 great scientists before we are ready to bulb theology (and avoid fishing & meditation other tech to avoid?)
spread hinduism via Hindu Holy City, city gifts, missionaries and other creative means to get open borders?

Hopefully we won't have to commit to Optics before we find out that Sailing suffices in meeting all AI Civs.

Get 1 AI to friendly by flipping him to Hinduism and engaging in a holy war?

We should focus on one AI, but I prefer to get as many AIs as possible to +8 hidden/absolute diplomacy. That would be Pleased (high end) or Friendly depending on the specific AI.

Weakest part might be getting hinduism to all the AI.

Yes, if Optics doesn't suffice, another Victory Condition may be quicker.

A lot of speculation here, but...
If we meet a Toku on another continent how are we going to get him to pleased quick enough to open borders and spread hinduism?
If there is land near them to settle maybe settle a city nearby, spread hinduism, city gift is possible, but then we would need astronomy

With Optics, any port water connected to our ports can support natural Hinduism spread without Open Borders provided the target is running Theocracy, but the chance of spread is drastically reduced as the distance increases.

25 turns of resource trade provides +1 Diplomacy (can be 5t of 5 resources, etc.) 50t = +2 Diplomacy. This diplomacy bonus will decay in time, a single resource trade will prevent decay.

On t60 (not game speed adjusted), Years of Peace confers +1 Diplomacy (doesn't matter when the AI was met). This bonus is lost if either side DoWs the other.

Of course giving an AI a technology soon after meeting it will provide +4 "fair trading" Diplomacy bonus. The delay from the turn the AI is met to the turn the technology gift is given will weaken the bonus Diplomacy given. This may also depend on the AI too (some are more easily impressed by small gifts than others).

Spies can switch an AI into its favorite Civic, if it finds another Civic more "profitable".

Switching into an AI's Civics by request of that AI provides +1 Diplomacy.

There are a few others that I can't think of now ... other than the gift city which will provide +4 "fair trading" bonus, but the city will be Hindu, so we don't need Open Borders after all.

If there is no land near them are we screwed? Do we need to plan a path to Banking so we can adopt their favorite civic mercantilism?

Possible, but unlikely. I seriously doubt there will be any other "Tokugawa" hybrids - certainly not all.

I also do not believe that the scenario designer has made RL DV or Conquest impossible by permanently isolating one or more Civs.

Scouting seems like it is a high priority. We need to know how hard it is going to be to reach and convert the other AI. A scouting spy is a high priority I would think. And a scouting workboat is a high priority. Maybe the NW Deer/Gold city should be coastal so we can get a workboat out sooner rather than later? With a likely hindu spread, and with Stonehenge soonish we could get a border pop relatively soon, but clearly not having the deer in the initial fat cross would be a big sacrifice/gamble.

Agreed, but we should have enough port cities without making our 2nd city one.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

I also think, even if we are Gandhi, as a human player, we do not have peaceweight as a factor in player-AI diplo.

Oh excellent. I missed that bit of info, thank you.

 

[Manco Capac]

I'm not sure the video thing is working for me, but I'll give it another try.
It feels like someone is reading the PPP to me...slowly...and I have to listen to all the irrelevant parts. For example, if I'd like to review all the worker actions, I have to sit thru all the warrior movements, and technology screens, tile micro, etc.

Maybe post a PPP along with it?

I brushed the visual PPP; no warrior movements.
At this point, there is few micro.
There is a beginning of PPP already. I will try to produce the final tomorrow (19 hours later) and perhaps playing my turn-set a little later, trying to fit my turn-set in 3 days as accepted in SGOTM14.

 

[WastinTime]

include yourresearch slider plan. I thought wealth ran a little high in the video

 

[mabraham]

I attempted my plan of BW after Hunting, and was unable to chop a worker and get to the SE gold in time to improve it the turn the city planted. I would have been able to do so if we'd had Hinduism spread - the border pop to the southern Gforest hill can time well with a T45 BW (which requires the slider micro below). So I now support Wheel after Hunting, but would suggest a PPP pause for more testing if we get Hindu spread before we have to choose our tech after Hunting. Getting that second worker chopped out as well as T52-3 TGW is likely worth a few turns of no roads to the second city.

Either way, after Hunting we want BW+Wheel ASAP with binary research. The turn after Hunting completes needs to be 100% gold while working the gold mine, and we need another turn of gold, but we can put the latter on during the "work the deer camp" phase in the second city, and this will ensure that we get Wheel+BW with minimal banked gold.

 

[DanF5771]

FP farm only adds one food. It is not better at settler production than working a mine.
It does give one commerce, but working the gold is much more important.

If I'm not mistaken Bombay spends 8 turns not working the improved Gold = 3 turns until the mine is up and later 5 turns to grow to size 2 on improved Deer.

My suggestion was to let Bombay use these 8 turns to grow to size 2 on unimproved Deer building TGW while Eiffel finishes FP-farm in Delhi and gets the Gold-mine up the exact moment Bombay grows to size 2. We can let Delhi grow to size 5 that way (building TGW after SH) before building the 2nd Settler since we kind of give up on settling the eastern Gold before Toku anyway.

Eiffel won't 'waste' Worker turns on an unneeded GMine before BW is in, but instead completes improvement of Delhi's important tiles.

 

[mabraham]

If I'm not mistaken Bombay spends 8 turns not working the improved Gold = 3 turns until the mine is up and later 5 turns to grow to size 2 on improved Deer.

The food excess at size 1 on the unimproved deer is 3, 0 on the gold mine and 5 on the improved deer. So opening with TGW before worker at size 2, the food box goes 3-6-9-9-9-9-9-9-14-19-24 => size 2 with 2 overflow. This is six turns where the city is settled and not working improved gold.

My suggestion was to let Bombay use these 8 turns to grow to size 2 on unimproved Deer building TGW while Eiffel finishes FP-farm in Delhi and gets the Gold-mine up the exact moment Bombay grows to size 2. We can let Delhi grow to size 5 that way (building TGW after SH) before building the 2nd Settler since we kind of give up on settling the eastern Gold before Toku anyway.

It seems premature to give up on settling deer-gold-sheep fast if Tachy's research on Toku's settling habits is accurate. (Or settling gold-sheep-corn fast if Toku does something else entiredly.) That fifth population in our capital is returning an extra 21 net compared with the tiles we'd work at size 4. Settling any city site returns at least 11 net from the central tile, plus whatever other tile is worked, less maintenance. Sounds like a clear win for settling faster.

Eiffel won't 'waste' Worker turns on an unneeded GMine before BW is in, but instead completes improvement of Delhi's important tiles.

I don't think that floodplain farm is an important tile. Equating food, commerce and hammers (big assumption), there's got to be at least 7 extra turns working the floodplain farm at size 5 (returning 21) to break even with the two fewer turns working the gold mine (returning 38:commerce). That doesn't consider the delay before settling our next city.

Also, in post #545 I no longer think BW before Wheel is a good idea, and so there is no temporising on a Gmine before a chop in the second city - after improving the second city's resource tiles, we would head across to the next city site and start work.

 

[DanF5771]

The food excess at size 1 on the unimproved deer is 3, 0 on the gold mine and 5 on the improved deer. So opening with TGW before worker at size 2, the food box goes 3-6-9-9-9-9-9-9-14-19-24 => size 2 with 2 overflow. This is six turns where the city is settled and not working improved gold.

Aha, I was thinking Worker first in Bombay after seeing Tachy's video, but I read you already explained 3 turns on TGW in post#519.

Still I prefer FP-farm in Delhi first (it's our 2nd best tile there, please don't undervalue early food). The Settler produced by Delhi@5 will only be delayed by 1 turn, right? At least that's what my tests show but you are the expert number cruncher -- did you do calculations for that variant as well?
And as mentioned earlier, city maintenance is most likely a bit cheaper in the real game (still -3 with Delhi@5).

It seems premature to give up on settling deer-gold-sheep fast if Tachy's research on Toku's settling habits is accurate. (Or settling gold-sheep-corn fast if Toku does something else entiredly.)

I meant settling earlier than Toku so that he changes his settling plans (goes east first).

 

[mabraham]

Still I prefer FP-farm in Delhi first (it's our 2nd best tile there, please don't undervalue early food). The Settler produced by Delhi@5 will only be delayed by 1 turn, right? At least that's what my tests show but you are the expert number cruncher -- did you do calculations for that variant as well?
And as mentioned earlier, city maintenance is most likely a bit cheaper in the real game (still -3 with Delhi@5).

I have now looked at using the floodplain farm on my planning spreadsheet, and I don't see how you can use the floodplain farm until after Stonehenge is built, and if you don't delay Stonehenge (T38) the growth to size 5 is around T44-46 (depending how much of the Gmines you're prepared to give up), and the settler 7-8 turns after that. Doing a fastest-to-size-3-and-4 T38 Stonehenge has the next settler moving T48...

It seems to me that catering to using the floodplain farm compromises the development of the second city, or our wonder times, or the settling of the third city, or some combination, without delivering a clear return.

I do agree that early food is awesome, but we're also racing for wonders and land. There will be some breathing space for growth once we've staked a claim in the east, while we prepare to build the Oracle about 23 turns after SH finishes (specifically T61 for T38 SH). With good micro and planning, it can be 2-chopped out the turn after the marble is hooked up.

 

[shulec]

In my previous test games from t23, I farmed the FP and built stonehange working both farms every turn except the last turn and built stonehenge on T38. I recommmend farming the FP and working it as stated above. Retest showed my memory to dramatically wrong!

EDIT

I agree with the micro to not finish the FP farm and to work deer, then gold, then deep camp as mabraham suggests. What I stated above is incorrect. I did not use the FP in my test game.

 

[AgedOne]

A thx to AgedOne who goaded me in the past in regards to vids use.

Hey! I prefer 'encouraged' to 'goaded'
Nice to see that I created a useful reaction, Tachy.

 

[shulec]

Hunting in 4 with slider micro.

I prefer fighting the lion in the forest. If we try to run NW, we might find another lion and have to fight in grass. In my turnset, there were 2 lions around me. One is dead and I removed the sign that showed where it first appeared, the other sign (lion t23) is still lurking. The lion you see is a 3rd one.

I think we will have about 90% odds of winning against the lion with a combat upgrade in the forest, assuming our health goes to 1.8. With the woodsman upgrade, slightly better. I am leaning toward fighting from the forest. We have plenty of time to heal and then provide escort service.

 

[shulec]

Tachy, I noticed from your video test game you got Stonehenge on T39. I recommend on T37, stop working the corn and work all three mines for one turn to get SH on T38. This is important because we will get the border pop for the Marble one turn sooner. We three workers on the quarry, we can get Marble in two turns (actually, as DanF told us we will bank the hammer for the second turn.) The sooner we get marble, the lower chance of losing the Oracle.

 

[mabraham]

Tachy, I noticed from your video test game you got Stonehenge on T39. I recommend on T37, stop working the corn and work all three mines for one turn to get SH on T38.

To do this T37 SH, you need to work zero turns on the flood plain after the settler finishes, as well as switch off the corn. By T38 that has cost 82 in the capital for a return of 5 base and one turn earlier on SH. This will slow all future growths in the capital by at least 2 turns. I don't think the gain is worth the cost because I think SH and Oracle are likely to be quick enough at T38 and T61.

AI behaviour building fast wonders in the test game is a bit misleading because all the AIs there started with Mysticism, and there are no Tokus, and the island team AI with resource access has nothing better to do than build wonders.

This is important because we will get the border pop for the Marble one turn sooner. We three workers on the quarry, we can get Marble in two turns (actually, as DanF told us we will bank the hammer for the second turn.) The sooner we get marble, the lower chance of losing the Oracle.

Yes, but every settler and worker our capital builds for the rest of the game will be 2 turns slower. That is very likely to reflect in our victory date if our Oracle is fast enough already. Unfortunately we don't know whether we are fast enough...

Compared with a standard game doing a fast Oracle->MC on Emperor, the only extra techs we've picked up are Hunting, Mining, Masonry and BW. Mining was a free tech, but almost all leaders start with a prereq tech for Oracle->MC. Masonry for marble and BW for two chops are paying for much of their tech time with accelerated Oracle build time. I think we rate to be fast enough at T61.

 

[WastinTime]

To do this T37 SH, you need to work zero turns on the flood plain after the settler finishes, as well as switch off the corn. By T38 that has cost 82 in the capital for a return of 5 base and one turn earlier on SH. This will slow all future growths in the capital by at least 2 turns. I don't think the gain is worth the cost because I think SH and Oracle are likely to be quick enough at T38 and T61.
.

I think you misunderstood shulec (or I misunderstood you).
shulec is not saying he wants SH t37, just that on t37, working the mines gets SH t38.

So I think we all agree.

 

[Manco Capac]

Sorry, rather a failure to find time to make my promise comes true to make further tests and most importantly a new version (more complete) of the PPP. But tomorrow is a day-off, sounds a perfect time to adjust the clock.

Anyways, I see there are some dissensions, meaning not every aspect is settled in the rock.

 

[shulec]

I think you misunderstood shulec (or I misunderstood you).
shulec is not saying he wants SH t37, just that on t37, working the mines gets SH t38.

So I think we all agree.

Actually, I think you misunderstood mabraham. He is recommending we finish SH on T39. I understand it as he recommends working one Grass Mine, Corn Farm and Unfarmed FP on T37. It is 8 more food and 6 fewer hammers on T37 that working three grass mines.

 

[mabraham]

Actually, I think you misunderstood mabraham. He is recommending we finish SH on T39.

Yes, per

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn you get the report. ****This is a change from the last game**** So if the research for polytheism shows it will be completed at the end of T12 then when T13 starts we get the report of our completion of polytheism. Please report that polytheism finished on T13. Or if we build an axeman and it will finish at the end of T25, report that it finished on T26 (the first turn that we can actually move the axeman).

I am reporting SH at T38 when we get to select a new thing to build T39, because the game log reports SH T38.

I understand it as he recommends working one Grass Mine, Corn Farm and Unfarmed FP on T37. It is 8 more food and 6 fewer hammers on T37 that working three grass mines.

Actually I was comparing the net result on T38 between your T37 SH and my T38 SH, but perhaps I was unclear.

Anyway, per 487, 498, and 535 since WastinTime finished play, I've always wanted to use three turns total (T30-1, 39) on the unimproved floodplain to grow to size 3 ASAP and size 4 ASAP while getting T38 SH. See PDF attached.

Tachy's video didn't do this - she acknowledged the use of haphazard micro. IMO, DanF's idea of improving the floodplain farm and growing to size 5 comes too late to do better than my plan. IMO shulec's T37 SH is too high a cost to everything else we want to be doing.

I can produce comparative PDFs for the competing plans if people think we need them. They do make it easy to compare the positions at the same point in time.

 

[bcool]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcool
When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn you get the report. ****This is a change from the last game**** So if the research for polytheism shows it will be completed at the end of T12 then when T13 starts we get the report of our completion of polytheism. Please report that polytheism finished on T13. Or if we build an axeman and it will finish at the end of T25, report that it finished on T26 (the first turn that we can actually move the axeman).
I am reporting SH at T38 when we get to select a new thing to build T39, because the game log reports SH T38.

Now I'm really confused. At the start of T39 you learn of our successful building of SH, so per the new rules you should say that SH finishes T39. The passage you quoted suggests the opposite of what you are doing.

Your detailed PDF, shows a T39 SH per the new rules. We are not going by the game log anymore.

 

[mabraham]

Now I'm really confused. At the start of T39 you learn of our successful building of SH, so per the new rules you should say that SH finishes T39. The passage you quoted suggests the opposite of what you are doing.

Your detailed PDF, shows a T39 SH per the new rules. We are not going by the game log anymore.

The wording in the original rules post seems ambiguous. "The turn you get the report" is open to interpretation. The subsequent examples suggest the interpretation is "when you get to make a choice about another thing of that type to do". I'm very happy to call this a T39 SH because of the latter interpretation, but I'm happier still if we can all read a convention and agree what it means