SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

Re: early settlers

If we produce a few settlers earlier then maybe we have a spare one to settle the fish site. Eventually we are going to need population for the diplo win vote and a early fish city the more population it will have.

Re: worker actions
Delhi
I still favor the earlier chop in Delhi even if it produces a settler a little earlier than is useful. Perhaps we can use the chop to finish the monastery then? An earlier monastery is 2.5 hammers/turn and a bit of research in Delhi.
Even if we have to put the hammers into the settler so the settler finishes in time, the extra hammers will spill over and finish the Monastery earlier. The earlier we finish the monastery the better.

Island City
the 2 chops into the granary essentially doubles our food output in the Island City. So working a GForest at pop 1 with a granary is like producing 4 food and 1 hammer. If we finish the Gmine we would produce 1 food and 3 hammers. I would much rather produce 4 food and 1 hammer, and then essentially double the food production of the corn that much earlier too.

Those 2 chops in Island city for its granary will lead to a significantly better long term output for that city. If not a trireme I think we want a lighthouse in Island city. We want population and I think it makes sense to have Island city grow as rapidly as possible.


The workers could start building a few cottages. A few cottages would be nice to maintain our tech pace as we settle more cities.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

PPP looks very good.

I don't have an opinion on bcool's suggestion, since I don't have time to look at them at the moment.

We do need to focus on the victory conditions. Any micromanagement that doesn't maximize the earliest VC should be avoided.

We should keep in mind that as far as we know all land is galley accessible though some portages and ways around mountain ranges may be needed.

Engineering may prove to be more useful than Optics.

We need to explore the map more. Circumnation for +1 naval range would great, so we need one trireme going each of east and west as much possible.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

Delhi, you're probably right about chopping everything. I never do that. I like to save chops for things I cannot whip (like wonders,) but we're probably done with wonders?

I was going to work the hill/forest while building the granary, but I'll go with your 2 chop way unless someone else supports the gmine.

workers build cottages in their spare time. check.

 

[mabraham]

Hope to be able to update the test game later today. Sorry I ran out of time yesterday.

Generally speaking, chops should go into useful stuff ASAP, so long as the city's population and/or build queue won't be bored afterwards... which will never be the case for us in this game. So chop Delhi into something relevant - and getting a monastery for +2.5hammers and +1 science (when 100%) sounds like a good payoff to accelerate.

The ideal growth pattern for island city is to chop out the granary as the food bin reaches half full, which is easy for us to do. We have 10 turns to wait before we can improve the corn, and (as bc suggests) working the Gforest is best. I had in mind 7 turns on the Gmine (delaying the arrival of the hammers 1N of lake as long as possible so Hinduism might spread, even though we won't use the Gmine in the near future) and three turns chopping 2E of corn. After 10 turns, this completes the granary with the food bin at 10/22, which is approximately best for the long term. You could convince me we want to spend 9 turns on three chops into granary and lighthouse... it's not easy to identify what we want this city to accomplish in the long term. High population is good if we're going to need its trade routes, but with our OB plan we don't think we'll need it for that. High population for votes later is useful, of course. If we're going to run mass cottages, then the lighthouse is a waste of time. Chop into archers to be mainland MPs and free up our other units?

 

[WastinTime]

What's the logic behind the 10/22 food bin? I've heard this a couple times now. I always figure it's a waste to run food before a granary, so I would normally work the forested hill over the grass/forest.

 

[bcool]

A granary starts storing food after the food bin is 1/2 full.

So say we have a 1 pop city with 10/22 in the bin producing 2 food per turn.
If it has a complete granary, then it will have 12/22 in the bin and 1 food in the granary. The next turn it will have 14/22 in the bin and 3 food in the granary. So effectively all food produced in the 2nd half of the food bin is doubled.

If you finish a granary before the food bin is 1/2 full then the granary has no benefit.

For example if the city was at 8/22 in the food bin and making 2 food per turn and it had a granary, then the next turn it would have 10/22 in the bin and 0 food in granary (no food is stored because the food bin isn't half full).

If you finish the granary after the food bin is 1/2 full say the city had 18/22 food in the bin when the granary finished. Then the next turn it would have 20/22 and 2 in the granary then it would grow the next turn and start with only 4 food in the larger pop 2 bin or 4/24. It would have to fill up to 12/24 before the granary would start storing food again.

In our island city example,
We will finish the granary with 12/22 food in the bin I believe with the 2 forest chops and working a grass forest. So the last 10 food in the bin will be stored for the next turn. We might want to work a forest grass hill for 1 turn so that we have exactly 11/22 food when the granary is finished.


By the way I think the lighthouse is still useful. mabraham suggests that we might not need this city because we will get foreign trade routes. Well we will not get that make foreign trade routes because most of the buddhist AI will have had peace for much longer with the other Buddhist AI so their trade routes will be more valuable than trade routes with our cities.

I think the island city will give us valuable trade routes for some time to come in the majority of our cities. Especially after we hopefully pick up currency from someone.

 

[WastinTime]

thanks, I guess I always thought it was 1/2 the food goes to the granary no matter how full the bin is. I'll have to think about how that will affect my future play...if at all.

Lighthouse is OK. With corn, I like to whip. Again, I like to save chops for wonders. Are we going to bother with Moai?

 

[bcool]

The lighthouse in island city would let the city grow on the lake (3 food 2 commerce) and set up Moai if we wanted it. Plus if the isalnd city grows faster than 1 worker can handle then coastal tiles are pretty good especially the lake.

It might be useful to build Moai to exploit the failure gold. Perhaps if we get Hinduism to spread into Island city we can save the last 3 forests to chop into Moai (perhaps after we whip a forge). And perhaps we could chop a forest or 2 near PigsGems into Moai for fail gold when PigsGems culture expands once more.

It could be worth it in the long run, but the how long the sprint to the finish line will be is anyone's guess.

 

[shulec]

We need to explore the map more. Circumnation for +1 naval range would great, so we need one trireme going each of east and west as much possible.
Sun Tzu Wu

I agree that we need to explore. I still think we need to try to get some damaged Triremes. This could be a game-breaker. The sooner we can get the Caravels the better.

I see Wastin' has strong objections to more triremes (Twice stated). I think we need two triremes to head north, then east and west. We want to get one heading south to go west. These triremes may be the naval units that carry our last three Missionaries to the last three AI that will not give us upon borders.

 

[mabraham]

I don't think bc's wording is quite right - I think the granary stores food until the granary bin reaches half the size of the food bin, rather than storing all the food after the food bin is half full. I think the only difference arises when you whip (reducing the size of the food bin). The implementation of the granary model on my spreadsheet hasn't differed from the game in a long time, and IIRC it follows the conceptual model I suggest above.

 

[WastinTime]

I predict our Triremes hit a wall in all 3 of those directions. Let's not build any more until we know more. The workboat can check out south, then west. One trireme can go north. If we could not sail around Toku, I'd bet we also can't sail around Hammu. This map has a balanced feel to it. We would have seen another AI boat by now.

If the trireme finds ocean, then they have to come home to get upgraded, but if it's a mountain blocking us, caravels will have no use in this game.

The best way to damage the triremes is to sit at home so we don't unfog the spawn areas.

 

[mabraham]

I don't mind lighthouse+Moai on the island, so long as we get those side chops for fail gold. It's a decent way to channel the last few chops into more than their base hammers over time, though if we don't have much demand for navy we may find ourselves just building research.

 

[mabraham]

The land west of Babylon is the same continent as Babylon, so either it is the "eastern" extremity, or there's a loop of land through which our triremes will not transit. Probably the same goes for the land west of our island. Scouting said loop can prove valuable if we need to find the last AI team - at the very least we know where they are not. I don't see short-term work for more than the two triremes we have, however.

 

[WastinTime]

Stuck on the granary thing. My gut still tells me working a gforest is wrong.

Test: Chop 30 hammers into a granary. Build the rest working the tiles from Island city

A:
Work the Gforest (2 hammers/turn), grow in 11 turns, granary complete 14.
Result: 14 turns: Size 2 with granary and 7 food in the bin.

B:
work hill/forest(eventually mine), granary complete after 9 then work unimproved Corn, grow on t13

Result: 14 turns: Size 2 with granary and 13 food in the bin AND 5 turns building something else!

 

[shulec]

We need to decide on plans for the GG. If we will distribute the XP, then the decision can wait. If we will try to settle him, we still need 60 XP for a second and it doesn't help us anytime soon, but should we go this route, we need to settle him ASAP. Settling will help us more if we need astronomy. If we need astronomy, it will mean the game is going longer and we may have a second GG by then and/or be utilizing Theocracy/Vassalage.

I think the two best options are to use the 20 GG XP added to four 0XP units to make 4 navigation units or to add to six Theology built, 2XP naval units to upgrade for navigation.

Do we want to commit our GG to these units before we disseminate them?
Do we want to sit on the GG until a later time?

 

[shulec]

I predict our Triremes hit a wall in all 3 of those directions. Let's not build any more until we know more. The workboat can check out south, then west. One trireme can go north. If we could not sail around Toku, I'd bet we also can't sail around Hammu. This map has a balanced feel to it. We would have seen another AI boat by now.
.

Don't be too hasty to think we are land locked.

I think the map may not be land locked and the reason we haven't seen any naval units may be the same that we didn't see any land units quickly: the AI had to get other Gawa's to pleased to get open borders. Those naval units couldn't get by the culture of the other civs. This process repeats every time a new AI is encountered by a workboat. There also may be one tile only seaway passages and a spiral/maze of mountains and land keeping the boats away.

 

[bcool]

It is a different story if you chop the forests...

Work GForest for 5 turns work hill/forest for 1 turn and chop 2 forests, granary complete T106.
After granary is complete work GForest, then on Turn 110 work Gforest and unimproved corn

by T113
you have 17 food in the bin size 2 and 28 hammers invested in a lighthouse.
by T114 you have 20 food in the bin size 2 and 30 hammers in a lighthouse (and 10 food stored in the granary)

I never claimed that working a Gforest was better than a hill/forest while building a granary. In this case a GForest is better because we are using the hammers from the chops to finish the granary.

 

[WastinTime]

Do we want to commit our GG to these units before we disseminate them?
Do we want to sit on the GG until a later time?

Let's sit on him. I don't want to commit him to units that may never be used.
I always use him as a super-medic. We may need that.

 

[bcool]

I know! we can make a 3 movement scout with him

Hmmm....

Split 7 to trireme, 7 to axe, 6 to scout.

Make the Axe into a forest III axe (a weaker supermedic), the trireme can get 3 movement and possibly get xp for another movement, the scout can get the GG promo to increase his movement to 3. It uses the GG immediately getting the benefits now. It doesn't put all our eggs in one basket.

If we are careful a 3 movement scout would be easy to keep alive.

It isn't the worst idea...

 

[shulec]

The problem with the scout is that he can only go where we have open borders. Obviously, if our settler liberations go well, this works well. If not, he certainly cannot move through enemy territory safely. I don't like the scout at 3 movement points.


Also with liberating cities, distance from capital determines to what civ the city will be liberated. Finding the capitals should be the spies priority, then move to the next (Genghis).