SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Manco Capac · Apr 29, 2012

shulec said:
If I take wastin's test and put a Joao spy 1 tile SE of the corn, revealing the tile for Joao, he teleports to the corn.

AI Units have a huge vision compared to human players. One feature of cheaters' ability.
I think it is something like 2* :move:

square like that. Perhaps, it make the tests sway from a constant result...

shulec · Apr 29, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
The game is so complicated as hell...

Lookie this example.

I uncovered everything except corn tile. Seems the catapult was not with the rest and entered in our lands, uncovering the corn, which let the rest of the stack teleports to us. Weird...

Edit: Cross post. (Fixed by including referenced post.)

I saw the same thing when I unrevealed tiles on my game, there were very erratic teleports. These results seem invalid. Regardless, when the tile has been revealed that is where troops teleport.

shulec · Apr 29, 2012

mabraham said:
In shulec's test game of 2619, doing the embargo is impossible, but that can make it an acceptable test of that case. Justinian has vision of our culture.

If I do not lib or beg, Justinian DOWs us, and we lose Pataliputra 3 turns into the war.

If I lib+beg, Justinian DOWs Mansa.

The save referred to in to quote above was my raw test game. When I needed it, I set diplo to have Mansa annoyed with justinian, then I could get Mansa to close borders. I have done this for the save attached.

Manco Capac · Apr 29, 2012

shulec said:
I saw the same thing when I unrevealed tiles on my game, there were very erratic teleports. These results seem invalid. Regardless, when the tile has been revealed that is where troops teleport.

As Kai saying goes: We all need a PhD in Civ4 teleportation or beg for DanF to come back.

Looks like only two tiles accept teleportation. The tile SW to the corn accept part of the stack, which means a distance of 3.5 max. The tile north to the corn is 4 tiles of distance is refused as a candidate for teleportation. Seems the inner workings exponentially favors lands near mother lands over neutral or friendly lands nearer.

Anyways, if mabraham assures us corn was unfogged by she-Toku, then nothing good can be extorted from a closed border. If only we had the Mids, everything would be so much easier, but damn Lizzygawa had to build it around 800 BC to annoy us.

shulec · Apr 29, 2012

@ Wastin' Time, I appreciate you giving your saves and trying to convince me and the team. I am afraid I still can't be swayed to try to teleport the stack to a non corn tile.

Ultimately, this could have been avoided if I had kept a missionary with our settler. So this is on me.

Huge props to Wastin' for seeing the war declaration coming. I am sure I walked right by Hatty's stack and didn't see it.

I still think our best option is to liberate and embargo only if we can't get peace.

mabraham · Apr 29, 2012

shulec said:
The save referred to in to quote above was my raw test game. When I needed it, I set diplo to have Mansa annoyed with justinian, then I could get Mansa to close borders. I have done this for the save attached.

With this test game,

if you just end turn Justinin will DOW us
if you do no embargo, do lib+beg then Justinian DOWs Mansa
if you get Mansa to embargo Justinian, he teleports forward to our culture (1S of corn), then Justinian DOWs us
if you get Mansa to embargo Justinian, he teleports forward to our culture (1S of corn), then do a double-liberation (to overcome the -1 diplo from the negotiated embargo) and beg, there is no DOW T121-2

Justinian captured Patali a few turns into the war whenever he DOWs us.

Conclusions:
embargo is not useful without peace, which requires lib
Patali can't be saved, so lib can be useful
no embargo might enhance the outcome after lib

mabraham · Apr 29, 2012

shulec said:
@ Wastin' Time, I appreciate you giving your saves and trying to convince me and the team. I am afraid I still can't be swayed to try to teleport the stack to a non corn tile.

Agreed.

shulec said:
Ultimately, this could have been avoided if I had kept a missionary with our settler. So this is on me.

Huge props to Wastin' for seeing the war declaration coming. I am sure I walked right by Hatty's stack and didn't see it.

I still think our best option is to liberate and embargo only if we can't get peace.

Yep. Agreed.

mabraham · Apr 29, 2012

Here are some T93-5 saves from my set - I've already announced that it is clear Hatse has some vision of nearby tiles in our culture. Hopefully these settle that in everybody's mind.

Manco Capac · Apr 29, 2012

mabraham said:
Here are some T93-5 saves from my set - I've already announced that it is clear Hatse has some vision of nearby tiles in our culture. Hopefully these settle that in everybody's mind.

Yes, that is quite obvious.

Not even bothering opening the other saves, the first save cleaves the gordian knot...

Anyways, I fiddled a little more with Wastin's tests to see the relationship between distances of nearer friendly or neutral lands vs mother lands and mother lands distances are something to ponder in the equation, not just the distance of the corn.

For instance, I changed culture value of Texcoco so the nearest distance to mother lands (Joao's) is not anymore 9 tiles away, but 9.5 versus a tile which distance value was 4 tiles away the stack (example the GH next to the corn). It ended, the stack teleported to our lands even though original test refuses this teleportation when it was 9 tiles from mother lands.

Anyways, little now useless constatation about a parameter that was not included in the reasoning.

Sadly, bye to Gateway City.

shulec · Apr 30, 2012

We have peace! I had to give 1gpt to get Hatty to offer some gold. I set s reminder to cancel deal in 10T.

Spoiler :

I had previously wanted to see if we could get peace and then do some exploration in Cyrus' land.

We have one question. To increase our chances of getting OB with Genghis, we should gift him our gold resource. Should we the cancel our deal with Hammuragawa? Or give up the gold, which gets us unhappiness in Dehli and PigGems.

bcool · Apr 30, 2012

~~your screenshot doesn't make it clear the beg was successful. I assume it was?~~ But the text does.

There is no way that we can win by T136 so I think we can cancel the gold deal with Hammuragawa rather than suffer unhappiness. The resources we are giving Hammuragawa was to insure we had +2 trade relations by T136 which isn't critical anymore.

mabraham · Apr 30, 2012

bcool said:
~~your screenshot doesn't make it clear the beg was successful. I assume it was?~~ But the text does.

There is no way that we can win by T136 so I think we can cancel the gold deal with Hammuragawa rather than suffer unhappiness. The resources we are giving Hammuragawa was to insure we had +2 trade relations by T136 which isn't critical anymore.

Agreed.

shulec · Apr 30, 2012

I forgot your not a big beggar. "Always happy to help..." is music to a beggars ears!

I cancelled our marble to Hammuragawa and traded for fish and 1gpt as recommended by Wastin

I will cancel the gold and give it to Genghigawa, then make the scouting moves and upload the save.

Manco Capac · Apr 30, 2012

Hgnnn...can't wait to see backward DoW against Toku. That'll be epic!

Manco Capac · Apr 30, 2012

shulec said:
We have one question. To increase our chances of getting OB with Genghis, we should gift him our gold resource. Should we the cancel our deal with Hammuragawa? Or give up the gold, which gets us unhappiness in Dehli and PigGems.

And deergold city...

But in three turns, both Delhi and PigGems will be reduced by one unhappiness because of whipping. That moment we might (hypothetical consideration) consider giving away a gem/gold resource to Genghisgawa to accelerate the +1/+2 for resource sharing.

We have to hope the +1 tribute won't wear off...I often saw that one goes away fast.

Was there a discussion about resource diplo modifier speed along addition resources; how it subdivide the time it need before the diplo modifier?

In regards to unhappiness, there's always another settler? for more city liberation, right? At least with settler production, the unhappy citizen won't eat and whine in his corner without costing us.

shulec · Apr 30, 2012

T122
No Hatty declaration on Toku :cry:

North of Shaka's land between two Cyrus cities, we have a good coastal settle spot.

Spoiler :

I am uploading the save.

Turn log:

Spoiler :

Auto log

Spoiler :

Manco Capac · Apr 30, 2012

No Hatty declaration on Toku

Nobody looked my test, uh? :mischief:

Anyways, where has the stack gone; more deeply into territory or going back to mother lands?

Perhaps, later, we might consider closing border (with Toku on Hatshe?) to stop her to come back.
Meanwhile, s(he) might drop the war prep. Anyways, a war with Toku might have bought him to demand us to join for a pretty -2 diplo hit, which hurt hard too, right? I don't think a player involved in a war stops the AI to be pesky to join their petty wars.

shulec said:
North of Shaka's land between two Cyrus cities, we have a good coastal settle spot.

And two forests.

mabraham · Apr 30, 2012

Argo didn't start coming home. We didn't start any spears. I asked and suggested a few times. I'll be more demanding in future.

The two Cyrus cities we can see were barbarian cities, and one of them is his Hindu city. That might suggest his other cities are religioned-out by northern AI pairs. On globe-culture view, he has culture across the northern water.

Since we expect Hatse to re-DOW T131, here's what I think we need to do:

Eiffel and Hoover connect Satsuma to the rice and walk to the hill forest 1SW of the Genghis-gift-boat-building site. They arrive T126. The settler settles T127 (becomes Hindu, build new missionary at home) and they chop out a trireme T127-9 (assuming our culture stays on those two forests), trireme built T130. GG can be there in time to attach if that's what we want - free upgrade to caravel. The two missionaries are there in time to infect and board the boat. We can gift the city away to Genghis before Hatse DOWs us. No need for further settlers on the eastern front unless a city gift proves necessary for an AI pair (somehow).

An axe in SheepTown scouts the city 2S of Memphis so we know what we want to attack when Hatse DOWs us. Done by around T128.

DG, ST, Delhi and CT all start spears so that we can move our ST stack forward to threaten Hatse when the time comes. We don't need more wealth at the moment - we have enough gold for 3 turns of 100% espionage, and that's plenty to start stealing with in a few turns' time.

PG starts a trireme next. PG settler next turn heads west and north in case two northern gifts are required.

Trireme near Crabsville moves to our culture SW of Island in preparation for an upgrade to caravel to scout the southern ocean.

Argo comes home for upgrade!

The scout and an axe in Shaka's territory scout east. These might die to Liz units. Cyrus main region is probably to the north across the water.

Settle northern boat-building site near Cyrus, start trireme. Fritz chops for it. Other northern units defend that city in case we get DOWed by someone else we don't expect - even Genghis has units up there (so there is a land bridge across the north!). Missionary in Shaka's culture prepares to board a caravel in the boat-building site (avoids running into enemy units). Maybe our scout will want to come back there to cross the strait on the caravel.

What AP resolution will we use, if any? Holy War on Liz if available (i.e. new spontaneous spread)?

mabraham · Apr 30, 2012

Also, shulec should scout a tile with our scout near Genghis territory in case that helps planning.

WastinTime · Apr 30, 2012

Shoot, I was too slow to propose one more argument, so I'll just accept the team's decision.
You all certainly did not take it lightly, had great research and testing, and opted for the safe play. I know we're all burnt out on this discussion, but when you have a minute, if you could humor me, ask yourself this:

Pretend the units had teleported to Hats' territory with the embargo, I'm curious would have been your suggestion:
a) try to hold Gateway for the t127 boat...gambling hats won't DoW until the SoD is back in play?
b) liberate and beg for peace anyway even though her SoD is 10 turns away.

If you said b) then sleep well, because the team did the right thing.

But if, like me, you would have gambled with a) then this could be our gold medal mistake.

SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

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