SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

<snip> ... even less snow bunnies

We should agree where to put our EP. I would put them all on Hammu because we'll probably have to deal with Toku before we have spies.

Was thinking EP's to Hatsegawa as Hammu would be next and Hatse seems more advanced?

As our cities can now grow, we probably need some Cottages.

Would like to see another city, say 1 tile north of the Crabs? Could build a Settler after the 'mids as one is queued there.

Need more Axes, or at least some queued up to pop-rush or complete as needed.

Research Math to Construction.

Not sure where we want to build AP, but Hinduism needs to spread to Bombay and Patal...

There are a lot of tiles that need improvement, could use a couple more Workers.

With 'mids, do we go Police State or Representation? Rep until we have Construction and then to PS?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Tentative planning:

Will follow Htadus's suggestions to take worker off mine and onto farm and to take engineer down for a turn.

Substituting granary for monument in Pat, planning to expand with a missionary that is needed there eventually anyway.

Will build Mids, granary, missionary in capital, unless someone convinces me a DOW is soon a real possibility.

Worker after granary in Vij.

Will continue to build axemen in Bombay.

Moving warrior1 1W, 2SW to make sure another seafood resource isn't available.

Was thinking EP's to Hatsegawa as Hammu would be next and Hatse seems more advanced? Makes sense . . . other opinions?

As our cities can now grow, we probably need some Cottages. In time.

Would like to see another city, say 1 tile north of the Crabs? Could build a Settler after the 'mids as one is queued there. Not sure about this. May want to hold off on next settler until our wkbt reveals the land west. If no fine city site there, then may be better to capture our next city, as we don't have enough workers to improve/chp wkbt for another city and an unimproved city would slow pace to Construction.

Need more Axes, or at least some queued up to pop-rush or complete as needed. Is there any reason to think that war is imminent? If not, then capital should probably build granary and missionary before more axes.

Research Math to Construction. Sailing, if we need to settle west.

Not sure where we want to build AP, but Hinduism needs to spread to Bombay and Patal... Don't have a feel for the speed with which this needs to be accomplished. Could use some advice.

There are a lot of tiles that need improvement, could use a couple more Workers. Will work on it.

With 'mids, do we go Police State or Representation? Rep until we have Construction and then to PS?

Maybe Rep until we are building units in more than one city.

 

[Mad Professor]

May want to hold off on next settler until our wkbt reveals the land west. If no fine city site there, then may be better to capture our next city, as we don't have enough workers to improve/chp wkbt for another city and an unimproved city would slow pace to Construction.

By the looks of the fog to the west that I saw when I was playing, I think there's another row of mountains there. Our map maker has gone to a lot of trouble to shut us in. I'm thinking our next city will either be beside the crabs, or captured by axes and cats. Which one depends on getting another settler built versus building enough axes and cats in time. The war horns will have to sound fairly soon after we get construction I think - at least after we've built enough cats, which I think we shouldn't waste too much time doing once we have construction.

I agree with the sentiment that both Toku and Hammu might have to go down. We're going to need some good warmongering for that. We have get out of our box, and cripple some AI's to win by the most viable routes now.

What dates are usual for AP by the way? I haven't paid enough attention to AP dates in games I've played... Let's make sure we're timing theology and the engineer right.

CP, how "imminent" are you thinking when you say war is not imminent? As I said I don't think we should waste much time building cats after we get construction and when we have enough of them we should go to war. If by then we can have enough axes out of Bombay then fine...

 

[Cactus Pete]

"CP, how "imminent" are you thinking when you say war is not imminent?" Within the next 6 turns or so.

 

[zamint3]

Will follow Htadus's suggestions to take worker off mine and onto farm and to take engineer down for a turn. You need to do this for 6-7 turns if we want the GPro first!

Substituting granary for monument in Pat, planning to expand with a missionary that is needed there eventually anyway. Agree

Will build Mids, granary, missionary in capital, unless someone convinces me a DOW is soon a real possibility. Agree

Worker after granary in Vij. Not sure we need workers atm, maybe barracks?

Will continue to build axemen in Bombay.

Moving warrior1 1W, 2SW to make sure another seafood resource isn't available. Also you should move the axe on the wheat up north 2S to look for seafood

May want to hold off on next settler until our wkbt reveals the land west.

Agree with this. I don't see any mountains west, and an overseas trade route would be nice.

Don't mind putting EP on Hatse.

Agree with Representation for now.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Don't understand the GPro comment, Z. Please explain.

 

[The-Hawk]

I'm a little confused by z's post on firing the engineer for 6 turns. If he is correct, then switch to PS and only return to Representation when you hire the engineer back.

I think Bombay should be working the mine, not a forest. I also think the city will justify a forge, although I understand the logic of getting axes out first.

RE: more cities: My gut says we need more cities. 4 cities versus 5 for the AI's and counting. Since we can not position units on Togu's flanks, we will have a slow march to his inner cities. He will be whipping, I think we will struggle to build enough units to keep up. If a second front opens, then we will struggle.

I like the crab site Leif mentioned, also the site 1NE of stone that Undecided mentioned earlier. The stone site is a decent prod sites with several cats locked up in those forests. The crab site can build a library and run some scientists. Of course, before we commit to either, we need to see what the WB shows. However, my fog gazing sees tundra and winter trees.

As mentioned, we should not settle more cities unless we get some more workers. How about we start a worker in Bombay, then whip it for two into a forge (or axes)? I would go worker/worker after granary in Vija, using a chop and 1 pop whip.

RE: Tech after construction. I am thinking Currency then CoL has merit. We can't raze, so conquest will bring a heavy maint burden.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm a little confused by z's post on firing the engineer for 6 turns. If he is correct, then switch to PS and only return to Representation when you hire the engineer back.

I believe it is because we are about to build the 'mids, which adds Engineer GP points. If we add the Engineer back too soon, the additional points will bring the GE before the GP.

 

[Mad Professor]

Agree with this. I don't see any mountains west, and an overseas trade route would be nice.

Hmmm OK - you caused to go back and take another look and I agree the fog looks less mountainous than when I last remember glancing that way. In that case we want to explore that coast, I agree.

Don't mind putting EP on Hatse.

Agree with that

"CP, how "imminent" are you thinking when you say war is not imminent?" Within the next 6 turns or so.

OK. No chance of war in that time period, I agree. You know better than me how quick we can whip up the necessary cats and axes...!

 

[Cactus Pete]

As Z suggests, will move axe1 to scout coast next turn, but disagree that we don't need another worker and Vij has few hammers at the moment but much food.

I'm a little confused by z's post on firing the engineer for 6 turns. If he is correct, then switch to PS and only return to Representation when you hire the engineer back. Think leif called this, so will revolt to PS at least until can run engineer again.

I think Bombay should be working the mine, not a forest. It is. I also think the city will justify a forge, although I understand the logic of getting axes out first. Don't think should risk forge right now, probably not until we have more axes, plus more hammers (mines) available and can chop some of it.

RE: more cities: My gut says we need more cities. 4 cities versus 5 for the AI's and counting. Since we can not position units on Togu's flanks, we will have a slow march to his inner cities. He will be whipping, I think we will struggle to build enough units to keep up. If a second front opens, then we will struggle. Close call. Matter of priorities. Can't do everything. I like our production from just four cities and would argue that we should not reduce research with city maintenance or expend worker turns on improvements or hammers for a settler to get a mediocre city up and running right now.

I like the crab site Leif mentioned, also the site 1NE of stone that Undecided mentioned earlier. The stone site is a decent prod sites with several cats locked up in those forests. Yes, but we're not ready to chop cats. The crab site can build a library and run some scientists. We could use another coastal city but question whether that site is worth developing right now. If need for boats becomes obvious, then would reconsider. Of course, before we commit to either, we need to see what the WB shows. Yes. However, my fog gazing sees tundra and winter trees. Same latitude as our capital.

As mentioned, we should not settle more cities unless we get some more workers. How about we start a worker in Bombay, then whip it for two into a forge (or axes)? Would like this much better once we have a few more axes and Bombay gets to size 6. I would go worker/worker after granary in Vija, using a chop and 1 pop whip. Inclined not to whip when we can grow city and mine grass hill (after worker completes farm). If wkbt reveals a city site, then perhaps reconsider.

RE: Tech after construction. I am thinking Currency then CoL has merit. We can't raze, so conquest will bring a heavy maint burden.

That decision can wait.

 

[zamint3]

I did the math...

The GPro will come out of Bombay 9 turns from now T89, this means you can run the Engineer for 2 turns (counting this one) until then, otherwise the GE will come first.
PS first makes sense.

Edit: 5 fast workers should be enough for 4 cities!

 

[Undecided]

Agree with almost everything already said, except delaying a settler to wait for more map info from the workboat.

As mentioned, while we have 4 cities, Pat will not be able to contribute to our invading army as well as the other cities because its far away from toku. Coupled with the always present danger of a bribe, we have to maintain a strong military presence in the area. Another disadvantage is, that in the case of a surprise declaration from hammy, pat can only be reinforced in a reasonable timeframe from Vaji. We'll obviously will scout the area carefully but it's something to keep in mind.

Because of this we need another city, but planting one on another landmass (if there is one over there) that can't contribute anything to our war, is difficult to defend if there are enemies nearby, takes a long time to set up and costs alot of maintenance isn't helping our cause.

Therefore i favour one on our landmass and 1NE of stone is better than crabsite (imo) because, it doesn't need a workboat, has lots of forests and good production. After chopping the forests it's a good place to run a couple cottages. It can reinforce pat if needed and is nearly the same distance from Toku as crab-site. Instant trade network and close to the cap for less maintenance (and possibly faster religion spread) is just a bonus.

Regarding switching to PS:
Seems like we're are only building axes out of bombay right now. PS grants +1 hammer for bombay so we'll have 8 hpt instead of 7. At the same time, PS raises our civic maintenance from 5 to 6 gold per turn. Now i'm not sure if this is reason enough to delay the switch to PS until we're building units out of more cities. I just wanted to point out the trade off. There is also the factor of whipping, which might be enough to favour PS even with one city building units right now. We're spiritual afterall and could change civics at the optimal time with no disadvantages.

Bit offtopic, but I like Pat as a location for the AP. This would secure a larger area with our increased culture, giving us more time to react to an attack and grant a bonus to our defenders quicker.

 

[Htadus]

Z is right on the money about the great persons. We need to hold back the engineer to be a few point behind GP.

I like Hatty for EP and the city undecided is recommending as well as the AP site (for the moment since some other opportunity may show up).

As for PS, if the cost is 1 gpt and the gain is at least 2 hpt, I am good with runing PS. Specially considering that we need more units to deter gun happy neighbors.

Also remember we are going to hold on to the GP untill we can do some bulbs. On that subject, as I said in the last SG, sooner we have a GP farm or 3 sooner we can finish this game. So a high food city is a welcome site as far as I am concern. Of course if some one found cristianity, then we have no choice but to bulb theology and build the AP.

 

[leif erikson]

If someone else discovers Theology first and establishes Christianity, that would probably be a good thing. It might break up the Buddhist block a bit.
Thinking we should wait as long as possible to allow this to happen?

 

[Undecided]

If someone else discovers Theology first and establishes Christianity, that would probably be a good thing. It might break up the Buddhist block a bit.
Thinking we should wait as long as possible to allow this to happen?

There is also an advantage in founding the religion if we want to keep a backdoor open for a cultural victory. If we're dragging it out we have to look for GE from our opponents.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good discussion. Argument for another city is strong, but am reluctant to build a settler anywhere immediately. Think we have pressing need for Mids, granary, and a missionary from capital, and every other city also has it's own immediate agenda and would be a slow build. Perhaps a settler after missionary in Delhi. If that tentative plan is satisfactory, could play through production of missionary and pause.

 

[leif erikson]

There is also an advantage in founding the religion if we want to keep a backdoor open for a cultural victory. If we're dragging it out we have to look for GE from our opponents.

I kind of figured that we would gain religions via

Good discussion. Argument for another city is strong, but am reluctant to build a settler anywhere immediately. Think we have pressing need for Mids, granary, and a missionary from capital, and every other city also has it's own immediate agenda and would be a slow build. Perhaps a settler after missionary in Delhi. If that tentative plan is satisfactory, could play through production of missionary and pause.

This is fine with me. Good Luck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"This is fine with me. Good Luck." Thanks, will wait for a few more consents.

 

[Mad Professor]

If someone else discovers Theology first and establishes Christianity, that would probably be a good thing. It might break up the Buddhist block a bit.
Thinking we should wait as long as possible to allow this to happen?

Confucianism has already been founded (during my turnset) so there's hope that might break up the Buddhist block as well. No evidence in what we can see so far, but all the same we can hope it's starting to work sometime soon.

There is also an advantage in founding the religion if we want to keep a backdoor open for a cultural victory.

I think this is a fair reason to consider making sure we're the ones who found Christianity, but I'm not sure we can do it and everything else we want to do as well...

 

[Mad Professor]

Good discussion. Argument for another city is strong, but am reluctant to build a settler anywhere immediately. Think we have pressing need for Mids, granary, and a missionary from capital, and every other city also has it's own immediate agenda and would be a slow build. Perhaps a settler after missionary in Delhi. If that tentative plan is satisfactory, could play through production of missionary and pause.

I understand the tensions. It would be nice to have our cake an eat it too. The settler after the missionary in Delhi is probably the best we can do without matter teleport capabilities...