SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[Htadus]

CP, It may be better to finish Mids this turn, build granary, do 1 or 2 turns of settler and whip it for 3 pop. City will grow back soon enough.

leif as for an AI founding Cristianty, this can be bad if most ofthat AI's Cities are Buddhist. AI do not change religion until it becomes prominent. They can still build the AP under Buddhist.

undecided, the reason for delaying Theo is to keep the GS tech path toward Astro open. Also there is no way a culture game is going to win this SG.

 

[Cactus Pete]

CP, It may be better to finish Mids this turn, build granary, do 1 or 2 turns of settler and whip it for 3 pop. City will grow back soon enough. Need a missionary badly to expand city4 and, among other things, take advantage of the forested deer tile to allow that city to grow and become really productive.

undecided, the reason for delaying Theo is to keep the GS tech path toward Astro open. Also there is no way a culture game is going to win this SG.

Not disagreeing, Htadus, but would like to understand your reasoning.

 

[Htadus]

Not disagreeing, Htadus, but would like to understand your reasoning.

It is more of a feeling than real reasoning. Well maybe both. First, it is preferable to have the deer online for 4th city but it does have usable tiles. As for the settler early here is what I think;

1. We are expanding at the same rate as our rivals. With 3 of them, this is a show of weakness.
2. Another city sooner give us more flexibility to do things.
3. Sooner it is established more it can contribute.
4. We have several locations to either have a production center or GP farm.
5. The potential for auto spread with the city connected is good.
6. Vijay can build a missionary after granary if needed.
7. Also, after granary capital will grow fast, building missionaries, axes, axes,......

So getting that settler out of the way will allow the capital to become a production monster and get another city for a show of power.

 

[zamint3]

As Hawk pointed out earlier: War against Toku will be difficult and take a lot of time and units, so rexing at the moment seems right to me.

I'm fine with a city NE of stone.

the reason for delaying Theo is to keep the GS tech path toward Astro open.

I don't understand this! Are you saying we can bulp to Astro before we build AP?

 

[Cactus Pete]

It is more of a feeling than real reasoning. I was referring to your comment regarding the impossibility of a Cultural victory. Well maybe both. First, it is preferable to have the deer online for 4th city but it does have usable tiles. Yes, but it needs to grow to use them.

As for the settler early here is what I think;

1. We are expanding at the same rate as our rivals. With 3 of them, this is a show of weakness. How does this work?
2. Another city sooner give us more flexibility to do things.
3. Sooner it is established more it can contribute. Can't argue this.
4. We have several locations to either have a production center or GP farm. Well, which site do you prefer?
5. The potential for auto spread with the city connected is good. Probabilty estimate?
6. Vijay can build a missionary after granary if needed. Not logical to settle a new city without workers to improve the tiles or chop the forests.
7. Also, after granary capital will grow fast, building missionaries, axes, axes,......

So getting that settler out of the way will allow the capital to become a production monster and get another city for a show of power.

It will be a production monster whether the settler comes out early or late.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Not getting any more feedback. Unless I do, will play a few turns tonight, pause, and post an interim save.

 

[zamint3]

I'm fine with your plan!

Good luck!

 

[leif erikson]

I'm fine with your plan!

Good luck!

ditto.

 

[Mad Professor]

Go for it CP, and good luck.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Long day. Playing now. Will post interim save.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played five turns until missionary out in capital.

Events of some importance:

Christianity founded in a distant land.
Toku founded Kagoshima SW of Osaka.
GS born in Osaka.
GP born in a distant land.
T of A built in a distant land (gained 16 gold)
Corn tile now only 56% Japanese

For discussion:

Would prefer to build barracks for two turns in capital before switching to settler, thereby allowing it to grow so can utilize an engineer with the extra citizen.

Can we somehow test to make sure there is no way to alter relations so we can trade tech? If we can't solve that problem, it would seem that we will need to research Alpha before we negotiate our first peace treaty, or would the AI offer Alpha for peace?.

Have not switched civics, but will certainly make sense to do so in two turns. Question is whether it will be better to go to Rep to gain research from engineeer in capital or to PS to gain two extra hammers in Bombay.

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.

How do we want to develop the capital? Tentative plan is to mine the remaining grass hill and cottage a riverine grass tile. A Hindu temple would allow another cottage.

INTERIM SAVE: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315671&stc=1&d=1331274114

 

[Mad Professor]

Christianity founded in a distant land.

An important question: how fast can the AI build the AP? At least they can't have an engineer yet, so it will take them some time. We want to make sure we get it. How many turns to our engineer? How many turns of studying will Theology take?

Toku founded Kagoshima SW of Osaka.

I think our settler building days are coming to an end after this next one...

GS born in Osaka.
GP born in a distant land.

AI tech speed increases - either academy and shrine, or techs bulbed. Either means tech rate acceleration for those AI's. So Toku has a library in Osaka...

Would prefer to build barracks for two turns in capital before switching to settler, thereby allowing it to grow so can utilize an engineer with the extra citizen.

Sounds good to me.

Can we somehow test to make sure there is no way to alter relations so we can trade tech? If we can't solve that problem, it would seem that we will need to research Alpha before we negotiate our first peace treaty.

No sure way of testing that I know of. My experience with Tokugawa (and it seems we have several Tokugawa's) is that it takes quite a lot to push him high enough to trade, and since we have aggressive AI in this game it's going to be especially hard. Even +4 relations for gifting a decent tech might not do it. Our most likely way of getting techs out of him is as part of a peace settlement after we've ripped both his arms off.

Have not switched civics, but will certainly make sense to do so in two turns. Question is whether it will be better to go to Rep to gain research from engineeer in capital or to PS to gain two extra hammers in Bombay.

How far are we from construction? If more than five turns then we might be better to do Rep for now and swap to PS after getting construction. I think we should be thinking cats ASAP after construction.

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.

Forge will be an extra happy for gold and gems as well as the extra hammers, Nice to have. If we can put chops into it to get it done fairly quickly it would be a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Htadus]

MP. we can use the demographic screen to get an idea of what we can expect. It is likely that their capital has similar production as ours and likely has similar number of cities. So we can do a comparison of production and estimate what kind of timeframe we are dealing with. But all that goes out of the window if they know MC and have a forge and generating a GE. I must admit it is very unlikely.

CP, wow 16 gpt jump after ToA. That is scary and yet seem impossible. Do they also have the GLH I wonder? I will have to wait until getting home to see the save.

As for making friends with Toku: He has
Hidden diplo of -1 (If I recall correct about this and Hattigava confirms this)
base diplo point of -1.
Same religion from +1 to+3 max
Diff Religion of -1 only
Close culture Border of -3
Share war from +1 to+4 max
favorite Civic from +1 to+5 max(Merc=Banking)
worse/better rank difference of 0/+1

So we need to share religion just to get to cautious as it is right now. And AP win is effectively killed by neal's planning. Actually culture may be faster than AP in this game.

 

[leif erikson]

Can we somehow test to make sure there is no way to alter relations so we can trade tech? If we can't solve that problem, it would seem that we will need to research Alpha before we negotiate our first peace treaty, or would the AI offer Alpha for peace?.

Just ran a quick test on this. Took one of our test saves and gave Toku Alpha and gave myself an army.

Beat him up and checked on peace. As long as we are eligible for Alpha (we have Writing), we can get Alpha in a peace deal. Actually, as long as he had Alpha, I could get any of his techs on a peace deal. So let's

 

[Cactus Pete]

Beat him up and checked on peace. As long as we are eligible for Alpha (we have Writing), we can get Alpha in a peace deal. Actually, as long as he had Alpha, I could get any of his techs on a peace deal. So let's

That's good to know.

"CP, wow 16 gpt jump after ToA." No, just got 16 gold from previous building of ToA for a turn.

Htadus, your post regarding Cultural victory seem inconsistent.

Would appreciate more feedback on the other discussion topics.

 

[Undecided]

Looks good so far CP.

Agree with barracks to grow in dehli. We need one regardless as it is our best production site for the upcoming war.

Would stay away from a forge in bombay for now. The forests are better used for units short term and happiness we'll be covered by either rep or only slow growing/whipping while building an army with PS.

Missing out on theo is unfortunate and a bit scary. If i'm not mistaken we're looking at a GE arrival in about 15 Turns. This should be enough time under normal circumstances. It seems though, that somebody has used his GPerson for a golden age because GNP and Production number is very high for a particular opponent, so it could get closer than we prefer.
We only have to tech meditation to be able to bulb theo. It's not possible at this point to get the AP without a bulb i believe, as researching it would take 13 turns and we need construction fast.

I also don't understand why toku settled his city where he did. Missing the fish although 1E would be a valid site is strange. The only reason i can think of is that 1E of Kago has iron on it, which he just researched. But we'll see.

 

[leif erikson]

Would prefer to build barracks for two turns in capital before switching to settler, thereby allowing it to grow so can utilize an engineer with the extra citizen.

Agree.

Have not switched civics, but will certainly make sense to do so in two turns. Question is whether it will be better to go to Rep to gain research from engineeer in capital or to PS to gain two extra hammers in Bombay.

Yes, I think this is a good idea.

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.

It could certainly use one.

We currently have two Axes, with a third on the way. Is this enough to defend if Toku decides to declare once we take his corn?

How do we want to develop the capital? Tentative plan is to mine the remaining grass hill and cottage a riverine grass tile. A Hindu temple would allow another cottage.

Yes, looks good. Would like to see some Cottages.
Also, how about a Library in the Capital? When you get a chance, of course.

 

[Htadus]

Ok, let me see if I can get the inconsistancy corrected.

• Wargames (both): Depend on how well we can buld good units and use them.
• AP game : Depend on how fast we can infect them and find someone to vote for us.
• Culture: Depends on how well we clear our part of the world and keep others from DoWing us the rest of the game.
• UN: Better than AP since no need to infect anyone but still need someone to vote for us to win. And can takes a longer time to get to UN; tech wise.
• Space: Well we all know that will take us to 17th century easily.

For both diplo games, the problem is religion and Toku.

We need to get one to vote for us. It will take us to convert someone to our religion to get to Zero Diplo point. From then we need to get them to pleased. That will take a share war. This is luck dependent in this games setting.

If, when we find another Toku and he is in a war and ask us to join, then a window will open for a UN victory but not AP victory. It need more. Okay lets say we stay at for for full +4 diplo points plus the point for accepting a war invite. So that is +5-1(toku)-1(hidden)-3 for wrong religion = Zero points total. Ok lets get liberalism and gift it to him and pay/bribe or what ever to get him to free religion. now we have +3 points. We could have gifted a good tech when first met him and got that point. Thats +4 now. Lets hope he is not the larges pop civ out there too. Next we get banking and gift it to him. Also switch to merc. We can get another 5 points. That is only 9 points. The only way I know how to get them to vote is to have then Friendly. That need one more point. So while the posibilty exists for a UN win, it is difficult. AP is worst since if we manage to get another converted and we do not gift AP city to a third AI, the converted Hindu Toku will be our opponant.

Culture is limited by how many religions we have, how well we can live with minimum cities and units. That last part is going to be tricky. Inorder for us to affectivly go 100% culture and avoid using merchants to stay in the red, we need to run a hammer economy. We will only have a forge to gain the boost. that is not much
On top of that, we are going to have 3 good LC cities to run either 3 cottage cities and separate Gp farm or 2 cottage cities and 1 GP farm. This is doable with what we have. We can get at least 3 religons total: Hindu, Budh(toku), Tao (with a little planning) That is only 1.5 culture boost from main cathedral type building. FSpeach gives 1. So the typical total is 3.5(1+1.5+1) and one of the cities can have the Hermitage for 4.5 multiplier.

Now lets just say, that we can effectively and soon take out the two nearest AI's. That is 12 cities minimum. That gives us a 3 city buffer but cost higher maintanace. Now we are in the culture building phase (When, What turns?) With the mids, we can stay technologically relevent by runing Artists but will we need to bild a war machine in the middle of it.

Now tell me why war game would take longer than culture?

So for my understanding it is going to be (with out luck factor) fastest to slow is War>Cult>UN>AP>Space.

Now if we factor in luck to augment the game setting:
With alot of luck and many gifts: AP is fastest.

With some luck and many gifts: UN is second fastest.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks, Htadus. Would like to have your input on the other points listed for discussion.

 

[Htadus]

I finally got to look at the save.

Played five turns until missionary out in capital.

Events of some importance:

Christianity founded in a distant land. Ok this is not good. Not only we lost a potential religion but also need to hurry Theo now.
Toku founded Kagoshima SW of Osaka.
GS born in Osaka. I guess this mean we can get a free academy in Japan
GP born in a distant land.This explains the theology
T of A built in a distant land (gained 16 gold)
Corn tile now only 56% JapaneseAnd he is at elevated threat status. We need to continue building units

For discussion:

Would prefer to build barracks for two turns in capital before switching to settler, thereby allowing it to grow so can utilize an engineer with the extra citizen.maybe better to build an axe for detterance. In either case letting the city grow is better

Can we somehow test to make sure there is no way to alter relations so we can trade tech? If we can't solve that problem, it would seem that we will need to research Alpha before we negotiate our first peace treaty, or would the AI offer Alpha for peace?.You can get alpha and or other techs for peace.

Have not switched civics, but will certainly make sense to do so in two turns. Question is whether it will be better to go to Rep to gain research from engineeer in capital or to PS to gain two extra hammers in Bombay. Yes, Rep first

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.Is it the right time? I know rax give power points, but do not remember if Forge does also.

How do we want to develop the capital? Tentative plan is to mine the remaining grass hill and cottage a riverine grass tile. A Hindu temple would allow another cottage. I am a buro capital guy, so that is what I would do.

I think I lost a post a while back, but what I was suggesting on it was to build a junk city to the north near Borsippa(?) to buld the AP. That way, we can keep the possiblity of doing a back door AP alive. You never know. However, now I think Osaka might be a good candidate if we Dow and capture rather rapidly. Just wondering out loud.

Also, due to the threat level, i am not sure about whipping down the capital.