SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[Cactus Pete]

"Have not switched civics, but will certainly make sense to do so in two turns. Question is whether it will be better to go to Rep to gain research from engineeer in capital or to PS to gain two extra hammers in Bombay. Yes, Rep first This appears inconsistent with your other suggestions: You note war threat is high and want to build units immediately but you don't want to get the extra hammers into them from PS. Please explain.

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.Is it the right time? I know rax give power points, but do not remember if Forge does also. Forge doesn't give experience, if that's what you mean by power. It gives 25% hammers and, in our case, two extra happy. In any event, it's not clear what you are advocating here.

Also, due to the threat level, i am not sure about whipping down the capital.

Concur.

Does anyone have an idea how likely/how soon war?

 

[Mad Professor]

Does anyone have an idea how likely/how soon war?

My suggestion is get to Construction ASAP, then build the cats we need ASAP, all the while increasing our axe numbers, and as soon as the more experienced warmongers among us agree we have enough units, we throw them at him. No detours except to ensure we don't incur a religious loss. I think we can fit in the settler because we've still got to get to construction yet...

 

[leif erikson]

If we don't build a forge in Bombay (as Hawk suggested), it won't be able to reach its potential once it gets the use of the corn (in about 6 turns). After the next axe, we'll have Math for chopping.Is it the right time? I know rax give power points, but do not remember if Forge does also. Forge doesn't give experience, if that's what you mean by power. It gives 25% hammers and, in our case, two extra happy. In any event, it's not clear what you are advocating here.

I think he is talking about the power rating of our civilization, which the AI often uses to decide if we are weak enough to attack.
Values for increasing power can be found in this thread.
Forges are worth 2 times 1,000 soldier points, if I read this correctly.

Does anyone have an idea how likely/how soon war?

No, but both Toku east and west are at elevated threat level. A two front war would not be cool without Cats, especially if Toku east has Iron.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I think he is talking about the power rating of our civilization, which the AI often uses to decide if we are weak enough to attack.
Values for increasing power can be found in this thread.
Forges are worth 2 times 1,000 soldier points, if I read this correctly. Interesting . . . case could be made for researching IW, but probably too late for that. We can figure out approximately how many soldiers (power) we have, but can we get an estimate on the AI? Also, can the AI be dissuaded at the last minute by a completed build?


No, but both Toku east and west are at elevated threat level. A two front war would not be cool without Cats, especially if Toku east has Iron.

Is some probability of DOW each turn associated with the level of threat?

 

[Mad Professor]

Is some probability of DOW each turn associated with the level of threat?

This "level of threat" you guys are talking about - is that the sit rep page in the BUFFY info? I was under the impression that this is just an accumulation of other observable factors such as attitude (eg annoyed) plus resources and unit he has we don't etc. I was under the impression this is an attempt to guess the likelihood of us having trouble with that civ that any experienced player might be aware of...?

Edit: the fact that we are the worst enemy of all three of the AI's we have met would also affect this. By the way, none of them are preparing for war at the moment so I think the likelihood of being attacked in the next few turns is ZERO.

 

[leif erikson]

This "level of threat" you guys are talking about - is that the sit rep page in the BUFFY info? I was under the impression that this is just an accumulation of other observable factors such as attitude (eg annoyed) plus resources and unit he has we don't etc. I was under the impression this is an attempt to guess the likelihood of us having trouble with that civ that any experienced player might be aware of...?

Yeah, this is what we're talking about. I do not really understand it so I went digging. Here is what I found in this thread, The Military Adviser in BUG.
This post, in particular:

BUG Military Advisor: Sit-Rep tab

The Sit-Rep tab (short for Situation Report) contains military based information on the other players. The following is an example (note: large version of graphic is attached to this post):

The columns (left to right) are:

• Icon of the particular player
• WHEOOH ("We have enough on our hands") indicator. This information is displayed when you hover over the 'declare on X' option in the diplomatic screen for a particular player. It means that the player is currently in a war or is at peace but planning for war in the future.
• A small icon of the players worst enemy. This information is new to patch 3.17. If the player has no 'worse enemy', a null icon is displayed (Khan above).
• The Threat Index (see below)
• Two columns of strategic advantage information, ours v the player and the player v us (see below)
• Wars: currently active wars and wars that the player is happy to be bribed into.
• Two other columns not displayed because they are situational: Vassals and defensive pacts. These two columns are only displayed if a player has a vassal or defensive pact.

Threat Index
The threat index is a crude, 5 level indicator that ranges from Low (lowest) to Severe (highest). An index (0 to 100) underlies the setting of the level.

Index < 15, Level = Low
Index >= 15 and Index < 35, Level = Guarded
Index >= 35 and Index < 55, Level = Elevated
Index >= 55 and Index < 75, Level = High
Index >= 75, Level = Severe

The Index is made up of two major components with some adjustments. The major components are:

• Relationship
• Power

Relationship
The relationship component is based on the pluses and minuses from the AI attitude and is capped at -15 and +15. There are 38 points which are allocated to this component with +15 attitude corresponding to 0 points and -15 attitude corresponding to 38 points (linear between -15 to -15).

Power
The power component is based on the power ratio (power from the demographic charts) of our power divided by the AI power. It is capped at 0.5 and 1.5. There are 38 points are allocated to this component with 1.5 power ratio corresponding to 0 points and 0.5 power corresponding to 38 points (linear between 1.5 to 0.5).

If their power is not know (ie not enough espionage points), then then this component is estimated at 38 * 0.75 and "(est)" is added to the Level.

Adjustments

• If the AI is in WHEOOHs mode and not at war (ie planning for war), then the Index is multiplied by 1.3.
• If you have a defensive pact with the AI, then the Index is multiplied by 0.2.

Strategic Advantage
The strategic Advantage information is primarily non-domestic unit based (workers, settlers, missionaries, corporate execs, spies, etc are excluded). The information required is tech and resource knowledge. If you don't have this information, then the cancel icon is displayed. Unique Units are a strategic advantage and are not canceled by the regular unit (see Sitting Bull above). Any unit that you can build (tech and required resource) that the AI cannot (including any possible upgrade) is a strategic advantage to you. The same applies to the AI.

For example: If you can build knights and the AI can build horse archers, you have a strategic advantage (Knight) and the AI doesn't (your knight cancels out the horse archer even though you cannot build it as the horse archer upgrades to a knight).

And, btw, I checked the AI this morning and none of them are in WHEOOH, they just say they do not like us enough or that they have nothing to gain. Thinking we are not in imminent danger.

 

[Htadus]

The reason for Rep first is to get the 3 bulbs per specialist (including nontiles working population), the gain is much bigger than the 1 or 2 hammers we will get for unit building. We need Construction rapidly.

So leif, forge does give power point? Great. Building a Forge is good with me.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Appreciate the research and feedback.

Proposed plan is to research Construction after Math, switch to Rep once we can run the engineer, build barracks then settler in capital, and build forge in Bombay.

Any issues with holding the GPriest until we get a GE?

Will play a few more turns in about five hours and post an interim save, unless I read concerns here before then.

 

[leif erikson]

Good Luck CP.

Off to do a midnight Haka. (Clocks move forward an hour this evening)

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played five more turns . . .

Nothing happened with the AI.

Got GPriest, who can bulb Meditation.

Fortunate to have forest grow in Bombay.

Wkbt has found a nice island and the indication that land lies west of it (note food in ocean on diagonals from corn tile), but out of sailing distance. Where to sail it from here?

Construction is about 12 turns away if we keep citizen on gold in Pat, but that will significantly slow growth of city. Opinions?

Our culture war to win the Osaka corn tile is a slow grind. Not sure why the rate of acquisition has slowed.

Inclined to whip forge in Bombay. Opinions?

INTERIM SAVE: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=315820&stc=1&d=1331442954

 

[zamint3]

Wkbt has found a nice island and the indication that land lies west of it (note food in ocean on diagonals from corn tile), but out of sailing distance. Where to sail it from here?

Too bad we have to settle on the corn to have any chance of a cultural bridge.
WB should go south to look for any passage around the mountains.

I would keep the citizen in Pat on gold until deer is available. We have to keep research high, we also have Meditation to research before AP.

Please do whip the forge in Bombay.

I would build another settler for the Crab site.

I'm no expert on AI relations, but it looks like it'll be very hard to get any techs, so the purpose of war is to extort techs?

Edit: Btw shouldn't we switch to Representation?

 

[Htadus]

I'm no expert on AI relations, but it looks like it'll be very hard to get any techs, so the purpose of war is to extort techs? Yes but you did not mention to kill/cull them off aspect

Edit: Btw shouldn't we switch to Representation?

Yes we should. I am Ok with Bombay whip for Forge.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Did switch to Rep, but after I posted save (and forgot to note it).

"I'm no expert on AI relations, but it looks like it'll be very hard to get any techs, so the purpose of war is to extort techs?" Also to gain production and knowledge of the map.

Planning to wait two turnsand whip forgein Bombay for 2 pop.

Not sold on settling another city right now. Doesn't look like another coastal city is crucial at the moment.Opinions?

Could play a few more turns in about10 hours.

 

[leif erikson]

Did switch to Rep, but after I posted save (and forgot to note it).

Planning to wait two turnsand whip forgein Bombay for 2 pop.

Sounds good.

Not sold on settling another city right now. Doesn't look like another coastal city is crucial at the moment.Opinions?

I would like to see another coastal city. However, without Sailing for Lighthouse or Calender for plantation for the Bananas, think it can wait until we take some of Toku east's cities and see where we stand.

Could play a few more turns in about10 hours.

Yes.

On the island to the west, thinking we are just going to have to suck it up and build the cultural bridge city on the corn.

 

[The-Hawk]

Hey all, apologies for disappearing. I am in South Carolina for my annual golf trip, will be here through next Sun. Then will be traveling for business the following week. So, for the most part, out of pocket for 2 weeks. I can't see the saves, so hard to comment on the tactics.

If someone could post a screenie of the lands to the west, that would be helpful.

 

[leif erikson]

If someone could post a screenie of the lands to the west, that would be helpful.

Anything for a travelin' man. Turned on the yields so I hope you can see the tiles better.

Spoiler :

Hey all, apologies for disappearing. I am in South Carolina for my annual golf trip, will be here through next Sun. Then will be traveling for business the following week. So, for the most part, out of pocket for 2 weeks. I can't see the saves, so hard to comment on the tactics.

Hope you are enjoying life. Not too many mulligans...

Keep your head down, eye on the ball and no slicing before dinner.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Playing . . .

 

[Cactus Pete]

Played through turn 100 when GE was born. Save below is from Central, ready for the next player.

Throughout the turn Toku gradually added men to Osaka, and I attempted to match him with enough units to defeat an attack that never came, so we have both stockpiled units there. I have positioned some units on the grass hill because I was concerned about his pillaging the sheep, and having to attack across a river to prevent that. We probably need another unit on that hill, and I wanted to get a road from Bombay across the sheep to the hill, but had higher priorities. The corn has just reached 49% Indian this IBT. (Note: the forest 2N of Bombay has been pre-chopped for a cat.)

On the NW front, the Babs sent an axe, spear, and settler SE, but they turned and left after encountering out fortified units on the choke-point forest.

Hanging Gardens has been built in a distant land, and Islam has been founded somewhere.

We are about 4 turns from Construction (maintenance of increasing units slowed research a bit).

Varanasi, our new city NE of the stone, is building a barracks that I suggest we whip for one pop, once we have Construction; then, use whatever overflow towards an experienced cat, pasture the cow ASAP, and chop the remaining forests into cats.

Seems to be an extemely unusual and difficult map. Attacking Japan may be our only viable option.

We now have 6 workers, 12 axes, and a spear.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm15/Xteam_SG015_BC0375_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Undecided]

Nice progress CP.

Agree that this is going to be tough.

One problem we have right now is the fact that we have to sneak in Med to get the AP going but also want construction asap. (Toku has it already ) I think it's 18 turns now since somebody ,most likely the team AI, has researched theo. Would be surprised if we have more than 10 Turns left, before it is build. We could save some gold if we switch out of mono and pulling back the three defender on our chokepoint inside our borders, but don't know if it's worth it.

There is a white border barely visible NE of pat so we might make contact with a german or english toku if we build AP in Pat and get the 3rd ring of culture there.

Hammy just built the Great Lighthouse, which should improve his position soon.

Another thing we have to keep in mind: Apparently hatshe has two ivory and toku two copper for trade. Elephants+cats would really wreck us.

 

[Mad Professor]

and Islam has been founded somewhere.

We are about 4 turns from Construction (maintenance of increasing units slowed research a bit).

After Construction I think we must immediately tech med, bulb theology and use the GE on the AP or we might miss it. Theology has been out there a while now.

Seems to be an extemely unusual and difficult map. Attacking Japan may be our only viable option.

With some unusual and difficult set ups to make just about every victory condition hard! HTadus - are you sure space will be the slowest..?

We now have 6 workers, 12 axes, and a spear.

12 axes is a nice collection and 6 fast workers will go nicely for a while. Add to that some cats ASAP after construction so we can thump Toku