SGOTM 15 - Xteam

leif erikson · May 3, 2012

Agree with most of what has been said already. A couple of things:
- Toku has pretty good relations with Huayana, and Cyrus (pleased with him) and not bad with Eliza and Mansa. Think he has places to spend if he wishes, so if we need the gold, we should probably grab it. He will need more techs as we move ahead. Maybe we'll get positive diplo points for trade, not that that will help a lot, but you never know... :dunno:

- We have only 8 Cats, 3 of which are in the east. We are also gaining one in Vija during the IBT. Not know what is coming, do we need more to fend off counter attacks? Attacking LB's on hills will also be costly for Trebs.

- Agree with CP that we could switch to Caste for 5-turns. Using Artists would speed up some city pops.

Green light from here as well. Good Luck. :thumbsup:

What does Denmark celebrate on Friday? Play a day of civ?

zamint3 · May 4, 2012

Couldn't get out of bed this morning.....

This day is the "Day of Big Prayers" in Denmark and is not tied up with any special event, but was instated 350 years ago as a replacement for some minor days being canceled.
Now, with the economy we have these days, they are talking about making it a workday again.. :eek:

@CP: Ski bums don't have to take the day off. :mischief:

Back to the game:

Agree with most micro, switching to caste and transferring troops to the west waiting with the DOW on Egypt.

Playing now.

zamint3 · May 4, 2012

Played until start of T195

Bad news: Failed to take Borsippa in the first try. Sorry guys.

Need advice on how to proceed.

Not so bad news: Hammu will trade Calendar, Monarchy, World map and his gold for peace.

We are ready to go back to slavery and OR, Egyptian cities are looking good.

I will post a few pictures in a moment.

Intermediate save attached.

Turnlog:

Spoiler :

View attachment Gandhi AD-1350 T195 in progress.CivBeyondSwordSave

Mad Professor · May 4, 2012

Haven't looked at the save and can't right now. Questions in my mind are how far are we from Calendar ourselves, and how far from having enough spy points to steal Monarchy?

Sounds to me if Hammy is willing to pay all that, but we haven't taken any more cities, that we beat him up pretty bad? It would be a shame to waste that and give him ten turns to recover...

Anyhow - I might have something more intelligent to say when I've looked at the save later...

zamint3 · May 4, 2012

T193: End of turn:

Spoiler :

T194: End of turn:

Spoiler :

T195: Start of turn

Spoiler :

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Htadus · May 4, 2012

As the least careful player in the team, I say lead off with any collateral units and take the city ths turn. No I did not open the file yet. His is already on the defence and taking this city will break him.

Cactus Pete · May 4, 2012

Z, other than the autolog, none of your spoilers show anything for me, and I am curious to understand more of what happened. Looks like Ham did some foolish adventuring but then brought a great many more lbs into play, and you had some bad rng luck. Also, you seem to have held your 6th treb back until late in the battle. Is that right?

After looking at the save, don't think we can take Borsippa this turn, but with promotions (cover where possible) most of our units on the hill will heal (as will Ham's, of course) IBT, plus we can advance 7 of the 8 units from the wheat. Suggest you move the unwounded HA temporarily onto the village east of Borsippa to see if there are any units (especially knights) on the hill NW of the city (not critical, but why not?). Probably worth the risk of advancing our two trailing trebs (which we may need to take the city) with just a pike left for defence if no knights are spotted. Then bombard and heal, and consider setting up a new test at the beginning of next turn when we know what will be in the city.

Notice there is a wounded Bab caravel and one of ours has two promotions. Did we have a successful naval battle?

Note we can trade CoL to Cyrus for 100 gold.

The-Hawk · May 4, 2012

I agree with CP. Hard to see us taking the city this turn. Looks like he has too many healthy LBs. Not sure we can ding them enough with our seige to kill with wounded attackers. Promoting the wounded will partially heal them, but I doubt enough.

If we wait a turn to attack, one of two things will happen.

1) He will not be able to reinforce from outside the city. In this case, he partially heals 5 units (no medic), we significantly heal 13 (with our supermedic). Also we bring in the stack of 8 on the wheat into the battle. Our chances will be much improved in one turn.

2) He will be able to reinforce from outside the city. This will reduce our odds for sure, especially if he brings a lot of units. However, my thinking is if he can reinforce the city enough to stop our bigger stack in one turn, then he also has enough units to recapture it if we just barely take it on turn 0. (Unless his cultural borders disappear and we can move in defenders from the wheat. Anyone know what will happen to those borders?)

I'm thinking our odds are better waiting a turn.

leif erikson · May 4, 2012

Agree with waiting a turn, unless moving the HA as CP suggests reveals a stack coming to reinforce the city.

Also agree with selling CoL's for 100 Gold. This would free up Kyoto to change from Wealth to Spy as we have sufficient EP's to try to steal Monarchy from Toku. Just do not want Meditation.

Looks like it is time to change back to Slavery for 5-turns? We are not using Caste and we have pop to whip. On that note, looks like we are about ready to dump Hatse too, as soon as we have some units available. She is causing our Egyptian cities some red faces. :sad:

zamint3 · May 5, 2012

Cactus Pete said:
Z, other than the autolog, none of your spoilers show anything for me, and I am curious to understand more of what happened.

I don't think there's much to add, the log pretty much says it.
I think I overestimated the power of the trebs (usually I use CR promotions) and underestimated the power of the mix of units in the city. Bad judgement on my part, should have tested before attacking. :blush:

And the 6th treb, it was partly wounded and I wanted to attack with it as the last treb, but then I forgot about it. :blush:

Cactus Pete said:
Notice there is a wounded Bab caravel and one of ours has two promotions. Did we have a successful naval battle?

This is from Htadus turn, it was exploring in the west and I just brought it back.

The-Hawk said:
(Unless his cultural borders disappear and we can move in defenders from the wheat. Anyone know what will happen to those borders?)

I was counting on them to disappear. Even if I had taken the city last turn I would probably have needed the reinforcement to hold the city. :confused:

Note: Two of the units on the wheat is not ours.

leif erikson said:
On that note, looks like we are about ready to dump Hatse too, as soon as we have some units available. She is causing our Egyptian cities some red faces.

A caravel is on its way south to reveal what kind of defense Hatse got.

zamint3 · May 5, 2012

I played this one turn, healing the units.

Hammu moved two LBs out of the city and whipped a pike. :crazyeye:

Spoiler :

I would promote the siege to city raiders and go all in. I find that the CR promotion does a lot more harm to the top defender.

Maybe I should set up a test.... :mischief:

I built a spy in Delhi, maybe he should go to Babylon instead of stealing tech in Japan?

View attachment Gandhi AD-1360 T196 in progress.CivBeyondSwordSave

zamint3 · May 5, 2012

OK I set up a test.

Hard to create the exact same conditions with the partly healed units and different fortification levels. I took away a few promotions to try and compensate.

Our odds are a little better in the real game.

I would sacrifice the cats first, after that the trebs have pretty good odds.

View attachment Ghandi Test attack on Borsippa T196.CivBeyondSwordSave

leif erikson · May 5, 2012

Thanks for the test.

Lost all the Trebs and some Cats (hate to lose Accuracy Cats, so did not attack with them) but took the city. Had a couple of good rng rolls with units, XBow defeating a Knight at 42% odds for example. :mischief:

Agree that we need to take the city.

Will need a siege unit build-a-thon to replace Trebs and some Cats.

Cactus Pete · May 5, 2012

Thanks for fixing the spoilers, Z, and setting up the test.

No question we can and should take the city now. Would not make an effort to save trebs. They are our best city attack units, and there are three more already near the front, so lead with them; moreover, we will not need trebs again for several turns. So would not freely sacrifice cats to try to save them. We may soon have use for a cat or two moving forward.

In testing, found that the sword and two axes and even an HA became dangerous. Those are the units I would put at some risk in order to keep units better suited to facilitating further advance and conquest alive. We are short crossbows, so would try to use those when odds are favorable and leave one available to go into the city for protection against maces next turn.

If you haven't already been doing it, please move the caravel in Pat to see what's in Mari (and then back to Pat). Time to start worrying about a naval invasion.

Believe that if we wait one turn we can whip CH in Giza for only two pop.

Let’s try to run scientist(s) in Delhi.

Can micro-manage Bombay to produce 3 more gold and still grow, but rather than building wealth would prefer to double the gold by building NE for a while.

Like whipping a barracks in Tokyo in two turns and a treb in Memphis in one.

Still don’t like a forge in Opis. What about whipping a granary or a spy after one turn and putting overflow into a Buddhist temple?

We have both unhappy population and overflow hammers going to waste in Kyoto, though we need the wealth it is producing. If we take Opis and perhaps make the trade of MC for gold with Toku, then what about building a stable (for future use – it’s a long way from both fronts, so a good place to produce mounted units), putting the overflow into a treb, and whipping it for two pop before returning to wealth?

BTW, what happened to the GG that seemed headed for Thebes?

The-Hawk · May 5, 2012

zamint3 said:
Note: Two of the units on the wheat is not ours.

So we had 6 vs. 2, maybe you should have shanghaid them

.

Hammu moved two LBs out of the city

Just when you thougth you've seen it all... I guess there were 3 options. :lol:

Some mm suggestions. Most are based on my feeling that in an unhappy city, we should convert all food to wealth or research. I.e. there is no reason to continue to grow when we are already unhappy. War weariness will just make is worse.

- Dehli: I like CP's suggestion. Might go for merchants instead of scientists, but I think this is a wash.
- Vijay: work a coastal tile instead of a farm.
- Osaka: work a river farm instead of corn.
- Tokyo: I would not build barracks, this city is so commerce poor. Also, work three cottages instead of farms.
- Memphis: work watermill instead of farm.
- Pi-Ram: Work three mined hills instead of farms.

I believe these changes will bring us to cash neutral with our current wealth builds. Depends if we run merchants or scientists in Dehli.

zamint3 · May 5, 2012

Cactus Pete said:
If you haven't already been doing it, please move the caravel in Pat to see what's in Mari (and then back to Pat). Time to start worrying about a naval invasion.

Believe that if we wait one turn we can whip CH in Giza for only two pop.

Lets try to run scientist(s) in Delhi.

Can micro-manage Bombay to produce 3 more gold and still grow, but rather than building wealth would prefer to double the gold by building NE for a while.

Like whipping a barracks in Tokyo in two turns and a treb in Memphis in one.

Still dont like a forge in Opis. What about whipping a granary or a spy after one turn and putting overflow into a Buddhist temple?

Concur.

Cactus Pete said:
We have both unhappy population and overflow hammers going to waste in Kyoto, though we need the wealth it is producing. If we take Opis and perhaps make the trade of MC for gold with Toku, then what about building a stable (for future use its a long way from both fronts, so a good place to produce mounted units), putting the overflow into a treb, and whipping it for two pop before returning to wealth?

I was thinking of putting the stored overflow into NE and start a treb and maybe 3-pop whip it, but like your suggestion as well. BTW Kyoto just got the "Won't fight our brothers in faith" red face.

Cactus Pete said:
BTW, what happened to the GG that seemed headed for Thebes?

She's in Memphis, didn't know where to put her. She might do some healing after the battle of Satsuma. :crazyeye:

Cactus Pete · May 5, 2012

Hawk may be right about Tokyo, but I suppose we could whip units there.

Don't think you need to rush to attack Sat. Our economy would suffer from additional war weariness.

Do look to make some progress towards Calendar.

Green light to continue from here.

leif erikson · May 5, 2012

Go from here as well. Good Luck. :thumbsup:

Haka time, :hmm:

Mad Professor · May 5, 2012

Been very distracted with RL.

Agree we need that Bab city. Hammy has been a helpful removing those lbows... Once we take this city and wipe that stack, Hammy is more or less corpse. If we can avoid the same state ourselves, we can begin to roll over Hammy.

Cactus Pete said:
Don't think you need to rush to attack Sat. Our economy would suffer from additional war weariness.

Yes, but not for long. Take Sat and the WW goes for good, and so do the unhappy faces. Delaying keeps the unhappy faces for longer. I guess we should attack Hatty again and take Sat when we can do it moderately promptly after declaring war.

Cactus Pete said:
Do look to make some progress towards Calendar.

Ya. And keep racking up those spy points on Toku - it would be really nice to get both calendar and monarchy just before getting peace with Hammy and grabbing both astro and feudalism from him for peace. (I can dream...

)

Go for it Z.

zamint3 · May 5, 2012

The-Hawk said:
- Dehli: I like CP's suggestion. Might go for merchants instead of scientists, but I think this is a wash.
- Vijay: work a coastal tile instead of a farm.
- Osaka: work a river farm instead of corn. Not working such a powerful tile is a sin.
- Tokyo: I would not build barracks, this city is so commerce poor. Also, work three cottages instead of farms.
- Memphis: work watermill instead of farm.
- Pi-Ram: Work three mined hills instead of farms.

I guess you don't believe to much in the whip!? :lol:

I will whip Vijay (soon) and Osaka (in a while), tend to agree with the rest.

Playing tomorrow morning, 8 hours from now.

SGOTM 15 - Xteam

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