SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[Folket]

You will need more settler if the cities you keep are coastal cities since they do not cover 9 squares.

 

[BLubmuz]

You will need more settler if the cities you keep are coastal cities since they do not cover 9 squares.

we can consider 13 tiles for Chengdu (assuming it will expand the full BFC) plus some that will be taken by Bab culture in the S part of the BFC and 6 for Kaifeng or 9 if it can expand to full BFC.

We can consider to settle as soon as we have terrain free from Chinese culture, so the new cities can expand to full BFC and be used as airfields. The problem is that they need to be protected. In any case, since we can build a settler in 1 turn, i prefere to have all ready, so i think 9 are a safe number.

If i see i can have enough land by the turn after the vote, i'll try to vassal Qin. This will guarantee a domination, probably without many settlers. Much will depend by war luck.
Or the turn before is better? Does a Dom victory nullify a Diplo victory if it occurs in the same turn? I'm afraid it does. I don't think there's many people with this kind of experienxce

The BUFFY alerts tell me that we have 652 tiles and the limit is 730. The F9 screen counts our actual land, 607. So Hammu should have 90 which count 45 for Dom limit.
With Sushi in Dur we can probably steal some tile to Arabia.

I'll try to optimize the building of whealth and research to have the more possible sushi executives and settlers in the other continent ASAP, possibly using a galleon chain and keeping the airports for military. No more than the military units which can be airlifted, or it's a waste. Maybe 1-2 more just in the first turn. The target is to have FT 1 completed by turn 264, so i think to have room for any combination.

 

[Shaandore]

Another thing about Diplo:
- the population % dispayed in F8 is ours with a % of the one of our vassal or ours only? I think it is the combined population: our pop plus half of our vassal's pop. (For the land, the combined land is displayed, that is for sure.) But somebody should confirm this.
- the 151,002,000 in F9 is of any help, it seems
- the only useful thing is the F8 Members tab which we can see once the UN are built. I must keep our pop below that threshold before the vote or the Diplo would not even appear and watch to not pass it in the IBT. This must take account that the threshold will lower when we take or raze Chinese cities, so it'd be better to be low enough starting from the Sec Gen vote. I'll see if just starving is enough or if i need to revolt to slavery and whip something, possibly useful.

then This is the plan, period.

About war
if you think our bombers are enough coupled with tanks and infantry i think i can even start this turn, but i think it's better wait next one, some units are out of moves and the reinforcements can't be airlifted. Yes, I think next turn would be best.

PPP
- keep researching to FT1, satellites - plastics - composites - adv flight - stealth - FT1 in this order, so we can maybe use some MA We won't have robotics, so no MAs...
- Start building UN on turn 257
- start the chinese fireworks next turn, keep any city which finish revolt before turn 264, raze the rest, even Beijing
- i'll move to the front the 2 medic muskets and move some cannon from Bab to dur to compensate
- i must watch some chinese ship near our borders mainly to protect our nets
- build some settlers: we have 2 now and 1 ready next turn. How many? total This is hard to tell. You should see as you conquer. You can even settle some sooner, and give them a border pop, so we don't need that many settlers. Settling a city with its first ring gives us 9 tiles, and moves us ~0.8% closer to Dom limit. A city with all its BFC on land tiles gives 1.84%.
- can i build something in Thebes or we lose the overflow? In most cases we would decrease or lose the OF, so I would stick to research/wealth.
- is it worth spread Sushi to the new cities including Babylon and Dur? I don't think so. Sushi would give us more tiles, it would be difficult to calculate. A settler is the same cost but gives us 9 tiles at an exact time.
- i'd like to build a theather and a library in Bab and Dur to help with culture and with WW. maybe even a temple. If it helps against revolts maybe... Otherwise I don't think that it is a good investment. The game is over, really. Even if we get two revolts, we only lose half of those tiles (they would be Ham's again), so we could compensate with one or 2 more settlers in Chinese land.

If you give me a green (and the answers i need), i can play at any time. As usual, will report every few turns. surely i'll stop on turn 257.

THis can be an answer. 7 more settlers, or 5 if the 2 small cities come out of revolt in time for the diplo vote.
We plan to settle the turn of victory, correct?
It is not necessary to wait with all settlers until the final turn, but at least 4 or 5 should be settled then, so we make sure to not reach dom before.

Answers in red. Green light from me, good luck!

 

[ZPV]

The turn before victory is fine. Winning Domination won't cancel the vote.
(Really, it's preferable, since we can get 21 tiles per city (or 37 with Sushi) instead of just 9.) If you prefer to do it on the turn of victory, that's fine too - the cost won't hurt us.

I believe we currently have 716 population.

Qin has an inconvenient Frigate near Egypt. We can't declare this turn, for fear of losing Sushi resources. Next turn should be fine though.

Build whatever you like in Thebes, so long as it costs <200 hammers. However, I can't think of anything you'd want to build.

If we get a GE, then Creative Constructions should go in a LC. Probably Gergovia since that city doesn't have hammer multipliers. Otherwise, a science corporation in Paris or a food corp anywhere.

It would be nice to delay Plastics as long as possible, if we can trade for Fur other than from Qin.

I don't consider any happiness or culture building in Babylon or Dur-K to be able to pay off in less than 12 turns. We might lose their tiles at an inconvenient time and have to trade for the resources with Hammy, but there's not much we can do about that except put advanced units in the cities.

edit: Green light, once you feel ready to play.

 

[Folket]

With free speech and caste system we can make the new cities run an artist for one turn to pop it borders.

This looks like it should be easy. You have my green light.

 

[BLubmuz]

The turn before victory is fine. Winning Domination won't cancel the vote.
(Really, it's preferable, since we can get 21 tiles per city (or 37 with Sushi) instead of just 9.) If you prefer to do it on the turn of victory, that's fine too - the cost won't hurt us.

I believe we currently have 716 population.

Hammu has 77 and the BUFFY alert says 754. 77/2=38 (rounded down). 754-38=716 yes, it's right, but it's important only after the UN.
Do you mean that peace+vassl Qin it's preferable the turn before victory? In any case i'll stop on turn 257.

Qin has an inconvenient Frigate near Egypt. We can't declare this turn, for fear of losing Sushi resources. Next turn should be fine though.

Build whatever you like in Thebes, so long as it costs <200 hammers. However, I can't think of anything you'd want to build.

If we get a GE, then Creative Constructions should go in a LC.

It gives 10h+60 culture, not bad. Much depend by when we get it. Since we can't control it, we can just hope. In any case it's not life or death.

Probably Gergovia since that city doesn't have hammer multipliers. Otherwise, a science corporation in Paris or a food corp anywhere.

It would be nice to delay Plastics as long as possible, if we can trade for Fur other than from Qin.

The max i can do is satellites - adv flight, then plastics. It's a prerequisite for any other tech we need.

I don't consider any happiness or culture building in Babylon or Dur-K to be able to pay off in less than 12 turns. We might lose their tiles at an inconvenient time and have to trade for the resources with Hammy, but there's not much we can do about that except put advanced units in the cities.

edit: Green light, once you feel ready to play.

I think that any building which can be built in 1 turn will pay off. If we can spare units to avoid revolts it's a pay off. If we can avoid unhappy citizens it's a pay off. We don't have any problem of gold or research aiming for turn 265, so better safe than sorry.

I've seen a frigate in former Egypt (we have destroyer in the area, but too faraway ATM) and a galleon in the open sea NE, but close to Amiens. I can build a transport in 1 turn in Tours to deal with that. Transports can easily beat frigates, a galleon is not match. 2 turns for a destroyer won't work.

I'll play in few hours. before midnight i hope to report unitl 257.

 

[BLubmuz]

It's turn 255 and i'm tired. I'll play again tomorrow morning until 257.

Highlights:
i spent over half an hour to set the artists in the correct way (according to the spreadsheet). The best way to do so was to see the GPP accumulated and sum (luckily i do not need any support for this ) the GPP you'r producing. I've found somthing wrong in Gergovia, which can't run 36 specs, being 35 the max possible.

War
i declared on turn 254, as planned. Took and kept the 3 border cities, since Xian will come out of revolt in 10 turns, so 264. Satellites and adv flight are in and plastics is due in 1 (one turn, yes).
No losses, nothing. Just a bomber slightly damaged by a MG. The frigate in former Egypt was teleported close to a net and the destroyer was 3 tiles away. So i've tried the privateer and i won @ 31%. The transport was built, but the galleon just disappeared.
Hammu is taking seriously the war. He destroyed a small stack which was teleported in Arabia and he's got a couple rifles marching to Beijing... not much, but enough to distract Qin.

Now i got 6 tanks to the doors of Beijing and 7 more reaching next turn with the GG. I think i'll bombard the defenses, then attack or... i'll see. He's amassing a lot of units there. I'm healing the tanks for the East coast... do you agree? not badly damaged but 1.

I got 7 settlers already in Bab lands and 2 more in production, after that i'll build military or whealth/research.

I'm trying to set a decent galleon chain, since we have them.
I'll watch for your comments tomorrow morning.

 

[Folket]

hmm... We need a pause then and calculate if that matters to us. We can't afford to have our LC and UN mismatching. That would delay our victory 6 turns.

 

[Shaandore]

Can't open the save until later this afternoon, but the delay in Gergovia is a serious business. We need to recalculate as Folket said. After playing around with the spreadsheet it seems that Ger can still pop its first GPs in time, but the second would be delayed 1 turn. So we would get one less GPerson until t265. Most likely we could still finish (we can burn 1 non-GA for the corp).

We would still need 6GA for Gergovia.

 

[BLubmuz]

I did not posted the save tonight, but here it is. I don't think we have problems, but not any city has a clean GA chance. So any calculation can be wrong. >80% chance does not mean 100%. Only Ger has a GA guarantee. In some case chances are over 90%, but it's not 100%. I don't know who made this mess with specialists knowing we need only GA. We can only hope in my luck. Without luck, we can even generate 1 GA and that's it. Any calculation is based on the assumption that we can have all GA. But it's an assumption, not a guarantee.

Culture turn 255:
Gergovia 1430 cpt 15817 stored + 1430*9= 12870 = 28687 6 bombs
Orleans_ 1433 cpt 25793 stored + 1433*9= 12897 = 38690 3 bombs

1 bomb = 4000 Legend 50000

if only we have built culture or cultural buidings in those cities the situation would have been a lot better. Gergovia does not even has a University. Aside the 3 cpt it generates a lot of beakers with all those specialists. Too late now.

In any case i'll wait for your input.

 

[Folket]

Remember that we need one GP for a corperation as well. If that is not included we need to delay our win.

I will have a look when I get home.

 

[ZPV]

Ok, I see what's happened in Gergovia. The numbers include the SoL specialist and the free Salon artist, so we've gone 36-35 instead of 35-36. No matter.

Orleans's culture per turn will increase massively once it can start starving. It will only need 2 culture bombs.

Yes, most of the great artists are uncertain. The odds will increase over what you see now, by virtue of running dozens of artists. That is why we couldn't try for a t263 victory.

 

[Shaandore]

I did not posted the save tonight, but here it is. I don't think we have problems, but not any city has a clean GA chance. So any calculation can be wrong. >80% chance does not mean 100%. Only Ger has a GA guarantee. In some case chances are over 90%, but it's not 100%. I don't know who made this mess with specialists knowing we need only GA. We can only hope in my luck. Without luck, we can even generate 1 GA and that's it. Any calculation is based on the assumption that we can have all GA. But it's an assumption, not a guarantee.

Culture turn 255:
Gergovia 1430 cpt 15817 stored + 1430*9= 12870 = 28687 6 bombs
Orleans_ 1433 cpt 25793 stored + 1433*9= 12897 = 38690 3 bombs

1 bomb = 4000 Legend 50000

if only we have built culture or cultural buidings in those cities the situation would have been a lot better. Gergovia does not even has a University. Aside the 3 cpt it generates a lot of beakers with all those specialists. Too late now.

In any case i'll wait for your input.

Most of the GP pollution came from the times before we even started our megacities. In some cases there are wonders that pollute the GP pool. I don't think we should blame anyone for this.

Ok, I see what's happened in Gergovia. The numbers include the SoL specialist and the free Salon artist, so we've gone 36-35 instead of 35-36. No matter.

Orleans's culture per turn will increase massively once it can start starving. It will only need 2 culture bombs.

Yes, most of the great artists are uncertain. The odds will increase over what you see now, by virtue of running dozens of artists. That is why we couldn't try for a t263 victory.

What I wrote before was based on the assumption that we went with 35-35. It is good news then, so Blubmuz can continue. (I won't have time to check the save today, but the plan should be good)

 

[Folket]

Did we happen to starve Gergovia to early?

36-35 instead of 35-36, it kinda look at it will continue to go down. 36-35-34-33 instead of 35-36-35-34 is a huge difference. If there is no difference in pop compared to plan Blubmuz may continue.

 

[BLubmuz]

Wonder pollution is known, but many Megacities do not have any wonder. It was just bad micro. What is done is done, spilt milk and such stuff, but i asked to not revolt to slavery to the end of our previous GAge. BTW, i'd like to know how much we actually use it. I was simply ignored, as usual

Now, 36 specs were impossible in Gergovia, it should have been a typo. Nothing chnges for this detail. Obviously since it's not working any tile it starves any turn. The real problem is that we must rely on luck for the remaining GAs. If everything goes like the privateer, good. In any case we can discuss once i post the t.257 save.

Wish me good luck, i need it. Surely not for the war, i just bulldoze him. I'll try to see if i can keep Beijing. I'll make a dotmap with this possibility. I'm good enough to decide if it's doable.

 

[ZPV]

The point was on t253 just working the corn and 35 artists (33 hired specialists + 1 free spec + 1 from the salon), the city wouldn't have starved, so would still be at size 34 on t254, to work 36 artists.
Never mind. We shouldn't need that last GA anyway. Yes, we should have been careful to keep clean gene pools in some cities right from when we first revolted to Mercantilism.

Keeping Beijing doesn't make much sense, even if it would come out of revolt in time. We don't want 18 extra population.

Good luck!

 

[Shaandore]

We used slavery a lot. It helped to set up factories, coal plants and sushi.

Good luck on your turnset!

I think we should stick to starving in Gergovia so we can win on next vote if needed. Blubmuz, make sure that we can stay under Domination limit for 6 more turns after t265 if we happen to have a very bad luck with GArtists!

 

[Folket]

We might be fine as long as we make sure that the cities not running a artists does not pop things or we get a great prophet. I think the great prophet threat is the largest one.

The great prophet is a real danger. Do we want to go the safe route and plan to align our victory with a second great artist from Gergovia or hope we do not get a great prophet?

 

[ZPV]

Folket: even without the final GA from Gergovia, we'll still be ok with one GPro or GSpy and one other non-artist.

 

[Folket]

I see, green light from me then. Bring it home.