SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Ozbenno]

Thoughts on the objectives

The Decathlon objectives are as follows:

1> Humbaba --an advanced era barbarian unit -- must be dead (Thanks Leif). He is a real monster just like in BOTM 41, but now lives in a fairly secluded place. STATUS: Not Achieved.

We are going deep in this game (Future Tech 1) so will have plenty of firepower to tackle this one.

2> You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities. STATUS: Not Achieved.

This does lend itself towards Culture being one of our victory conditions. Industrious helps wonder fuel this (as does corps), going late in the game (to future tech) means we have plenty of time to do this

3> You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident. STATUS: Not Achieved.

While this lends itself towards UN/AP being the other

4> You have learned Future Tech 1. STATUS: Not Achieved.

I think we definately go after this

5> At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team. STATUS: Not Achieved.

Should be something we look towards

6> You own at least three Holy Shrines. STATUS: Not Achieved.

But maybe after we see who ends up with the shrines. I also think we should look at one ourselves, found CoL get GP from Oracle etc

7> You own at least three Corporate Headquarters. STATUS: Not Achieved.

See above, free GM from Economics can be used for Sids Sushi/Cereal Mills, also free GS from Physics can be used for Aluminium Corp

8> You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage. STATUS: Not Achieved.

IW would be the obvious one, just pile EPs into the first AI we meet and steal it at our leisure. Don't think we should go for GW or Oracle Alphabet just to achieve this.

9> You fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination. (For example, your spaceship arrives on Alpha Centauri the same turn you get Domination, that’s two. If you achieve domination on the same turn as conquest victory, then you need one more victory condition to fulfil this condition. Understood? ). STATUS: Not Achieved.

I think Culture and Diplo are the best here, we can achieve the diplo win and then bomb the last city to get cultural as well.

10> Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. STATUS: Not Achieved.

Let's blaze away.

Obviously, Great People are going to be important here, we need to be very careful how/when we get these and use them to further the game along. Early GS for Academy in commerce city (that will be a legendary city) is always good, GP from Oracle/Stonehenge for a shrine, GM from Economics, GA from Music and GS from Physics can all be used for corps (or to get cultural victory for GA).

BUT, we shouldn't get too carried away just yet, the best opening to this game is the best opening to this game, focus on a really strong start and then let the objectives carry into our planning when they need to be

Starting position doesn't look that flash, warrior move to hill seems the best, except the two tiles that it would expose from the settlers BFC (if settled in place) are both forests and unless they are deer or fur, won't have anything of interest. I don't think moving to the coast looks any better. Settling in place looks like having 2 hills (one in the fog north) but LOTS of forests for chopping out early game workers/settlers/wonders. May well have resources to the west. Might be best to settle and if nothing else revealed in the fog, will at least have strong cottage potential, can always move capital down the track as well.

 

[Sleepless]

Problem I see with SIP is the fish city in all likelihood would have to be built 1NE of the warrior leading to a very weak city. Looks as well like there will be plenty of plains tiles if we SIP as well.

 

[Ozbenno]

I think having the capital with the fish is a weak capital (no fresh water, limited production). Looks like floodplains and plains to the west (but my eyesight may be wrong), another foos source and SIP is a far better city than on the coast but moving the settler NW or W and settling on turn 2 is probably advisable, it'll be a long game after all....

 

[Ronnie1]

I think having the capital with the fish is a weak capital (no fresh water, limited production). Looks like floodplains and plains to the west (but my eyesight may be wrong), another foos source and SIP is a far better city than on the coast but moving the settler NW or W and settling on turn 2 is probably advisable, it'll be a long game after all....

I agree!

 

[Grifftavian]

Moving the Warrior 1SW onto the Hill, and moving the Settler 1NW looks like it would defog the most tiles for turn 1. But I don't think the Warrior on the Hill would defog the forest tile 2W of the Hill, so we may want to move the Warrior 1W or 1SW at the beginning of Turn 2 before deciding where to found the Capitol.

 

[adrianj]

So we think that SIP is a bad move because it would limit the potential of fish city? Does this suggest that a good move for the warrior is NE to help decide if fish city is still viable, eg, more seafood or other resources are revealed.
It also reveals one more tile workable from SIP, that we potentially would be running away from if the settler moved westerly.
The same can be said for moving warrior SW regarding the forest tile 2S of SIP.

I think we move the warrior NE because it has more potential to reveal nearby food sources, eg, seafood or something on the plains. I then see two possibilities for the settler:
1) Warrior reveals more food - helps our decision making for capital to claim them, or leave for second city.
2) No food revealed - we feel happier about moving the settler west.

 

[timmy827]

Checking in...sort of I'm traveling this week so will be a bit muted in pregame discussion. Should be back in plenty of time to discuss and play the third turnset.

My thoughts on victory are Domination + Culture sound best. You can skip a surprising amount of techs going for Future Tech 1 if you don't build the spaceship. And the every-10-turn voting cycle means that lining up Culture + Diplo could be tricky. (I would assume the easiest way to ensure we cross domination on the same turn as the culture win is to get a bit short of land, beat up an AI to the point of vassaling but stay at war and only take capitulation on the turn that lines up with culture win. Detonating a Great Artist bomb in tundra would also work).

Edit: agree with emerging consensus that having a look around to the west, possibly setting 1 column west (n/s direction depending on what we see) and taking a couple turns is fine.

 

[McArine]

Checking in, and looking forward to an interesting game

I think the game objective list is very interesing.

I'd like to wait with agreeing on any first move plans, until we have been able to do some fog-gazing.

And with a place as #8 in the roster, I have plenty of time to get a new mouse. Diablo 3 have ruined the left button on the one I have...

 

[Grifftavian]

Checking in...sort of I'm traveling this week so will be a bit muted in pregame discussion. Should be back in plenty of time to discuss and play the third turnset....

Welcome aboard!

 

[Sleepless]

So we think that SIP is a bad move because it would limit the potential of fish city? As it stands SIP would be a weak city without another food resourceDoes this suggest that a good move for the warrior is NE to help decide if fish city is still viable, eg, more seafood or other resources are revealed. Torn between the two. If there is a food resource East of the corn we would miss that by moving the warrior SW. I think I prefer the move NE and see the tiles there.
It also reveals one more tile workable from SIP, that we potentially would be running away from if the settler moved westerly.
The same can be said for moving warrior SW regarding the forest tile 2S of SIP.

I think we move the warrior NE because it has more potential to reveal nearby food sources, eg, seafood or something on the plains. I then see two possibilities for the settler:
1) Warrior reveals more food - helps our decision making for capital to claim them, or leave for second city. Agreed
2) No food revealed - we feel happier about moving the settler west. Agreed

Comments in red but basically in favour of warrior NE and decide from there..

 

[Ronnie1]

I like the move to the HILL SW.

Reasoning

Would we really consider consider putting our Capitol on the coast to grab the fish? That move leaves very little room to cottage, almost no hammers and no fresh water.

If we go with the premise that we won't go that direction, then the options are SIP or move westward, either due W, NW, or SW. Even if we SIP, there is room for a city to grab the fish 2N of it. If we move there are more options to use the fish with another city.

Only a move SW to the hill reveals any significant number of new tiles that helps make a decision if SIP beats moving IMO.

Attached is a screenshot showing what tiles are revealed going NE, mostly coast and ocean, and the land tiles revealed I would bet against having any resources because of proximity to the corn.

 

[adrianj]

I think SIP is off the table. I think it is a choice between moving E (via corn) or SE to claim both corn + fish + whatever else might be out there, or to move W, NW or S to claim corn + whatever else might be out there.

I guess moving warrior SW will at least rule out moving settler SE, freeing up settler to move NE via the corn and potentially reveal more interesting things that way.

Personally, I would rule out any presumptions based on "no resources because too close to corn" because a) I'm not sure those rules apply for starting positions and b) this is a doctored GOTM map and anything is possible.

What do we actually want for our capital? Is 2 food resources and mediocre flat plains good enough? Are many riverside grass tiles and forests enough compensation for one less food source? What about playing with a very small worker/settler pump capital and expect to move it somewhere better come Civil Service?

Maybe we just toss a coin and move the warrior based on that?

 

[Ozbenno]

I'd prefer SIP over the fish/corn even with no extra resources, don't think fish/corn is a good capital at all. Think that we roll the dice and see what is W of the settler before deciding.

 

[Grifftavian]

Here are some screen shots from my Test Game.

The first screenshot is the start location with the BFC for SIP.

In the 2nd screenshot, the Warrior has moved 1SW onto the Grass Hill. Eight tiles were revealed (6 land + 2 coastal), only one of which would be in the BFC for SIP. Note that the forest tile 2W of the Grass Hill was not revealed.

In the 3rd screenshot, the Warrior has moved 1NE into the Plains Forest tile. Seven tiles were revealed (4 land + 3 coastal), only one of which would be in the BFC for SIP. Note that tile #7 would not have been revealed if it was not a hill.

I'm not sure that either move does much to settle the viability of SIP, but I think moving SW onto the hill would reveal more of our immediate surroundings.

 

[Ozbenno]

To really reveal whether SIP is OK or not, we have to move the settler and settle on turn 2. Or we decide to go for the corn/fish and also settle on turn 2.

 

[Sleepless]

Another downside for moving to the fish is the actual requirement to tech fishing before we need to.

louis has agr and wheel as starting techs so mining - bw seems the obvious tech route whilst building a worker.

Also the possibility of another corn next to the one we can see. Not unusual though the map maker has modified the map so?????

 

[Ronnie1]

Having to tech Fishing is a great reason to NOT go towards the fish!

Just from the screenshot, I see all that river side forest to our west and imagine there is even more in the fog. BW>Mining>Beeline Math and chop, chop, chop!

 

[adrianj]

To be honest, I'm happy with either option for moving the warrior (NE or SW). Is it something we should vote on?

 

[Ozbenno]

Once we get the actual save some serious fog gazing might help make up our mind.

 

[Grifftavian]

The team's starting save is now available on the SGOTM Progress & Results page.