SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Well played, McArine! :hatsoff: Good job finding Ramesses! :goodjob:

The turn set roster order is....

1) Grifftavian Up Now
2) Ozbenno On Deck
3) timmy827
4) Ronnie1
5) Conquistador63
6) Sleepless
7) McArine Just Played

Turn Set Player Emeritus & Team Advisor
adrainj

I have the save. It's getting late here, so I'll take a more detailed look at it in the morning & start working on a PPP then. :coffee:
 
1 down, 9 to go!

I would think we can trade Writing/Priesthood to Brennus for Hunting/Polytheism, that should stack up beaker wise (unless he is already researching one of them).

A spy to get IW is a priority and readying for war with Ramesses. Would building galleys and taking a short cut save time and be a worthwhile use of hammers??
 
Quick thoughts

-agreed definitely start a spy right away
-I would rather build Research than chariot in Paris now that we have Alpha...our economy is weak and we don't need another chariot if we are plotting war with more advanced units
-Not enamored with idea of conquering a distant neighbor when we are already at only +2 gold :) , especially since that means teching war stuff instead of Currency or Monarchy.
-But if we resolve to do so, yes I think a galley or two and a road to the crossing point (by the 3 sugars) will be needed. Looks way too far to walk around.
 
...I would think we can trade Writing/Priesthood to Brennus for Hunting/Polytheism, that should stack up beaker wise (unless he is already researching one of them).
...
:yup: Yes he will, see attached screenshots. However, we can get Hunting in 1 turn at 10% Science with the Treasury at 7 :gold: & -2 :gold:/turn. Should we do that and see if Brennus would trade us Archery for Priesthood? If he does, that would allow us to research Horseback Riding for the Horse Archers (and Stables).

Draft partial PPP for City Builds.

1. Paris - change to Spy; finish Chariot; B. Monastery/B. Temple/Research???
  • B. Temple would let us grow Paris to Size 7.
  • will move citizen working PHM N+NE to PHM 2W so that PHM N+NE can be reassigned to Rheims.
2. Orleans - Change to Trireme (for exploration); build Galley(s); finish Barracks when hammers start to decay.

3. Lyons - Losing hammers on Chariot build in queue! Switch to Chariot & 1-pop whip (keeping 2 Scientists); finish Forge w/whip overflow; B. Temple?

4. Rheims - Finish Forge; Trireme or Worker?

5. Tours - Finish Library & run 2 Scientists when complete; Granary; ?

6. Marseilles - finish Work Boat; build/whip Granary; Library?
 
Some thoughts.

We want IW asap for the gems and to see if we have any iron. I suggest we need 2 spies asap. Guards against losing one if its discovered and we could possibly have enough ep left to get another cheap tech.

Tours can whip the library this turn put the overflow into a spy and whip again next turn (or very shortly after). The other from Paris which could be whipped?

War?? I think we need to do something bold in this game and I would still prefer to attack Brennus then move onto Ram. Ramesses is usually a bit of a pushover and by the time we get to him we will have quite a few units + promoted ones (hopefully) and just run through him. Though if we do go for Ram first building a coiuple of galleys and shipping units over from the mainland seems more efficient especially if we have one move units.

City builds.

We already have 1 tireme so I would either go barracks/worker in Orleans or build research.

Paris - spy + build research after.

Rheims forge - barracks.

Tech?

I would still go for Math next. By the time we finish it we should have IW and can decide from there what way to go. Math will give us better chops as well to help speed up our army builds.

Tech trades. I would take hunt/poly from Brennus this turn. We can quickly tech archery when needed. There is also a good chance we will be able to pick up monarchy using either alpha or MC along the way as the AI don't regard this as a monopoly tech.
 
:blush: I didn't see the Trireme we just built, will skip building those in next PPP update.

Two spies does sound like a good idea!

Do we need to consider building Lighthouses in our coastal cities yet?
 
Do we need to consider building Lighthouses in our coastal cities yet?

Personally I wouldn't atm as they will only add 1 food to the resource tile and were unlikely to be using coastal tiles for a while. Much better to concentrate on barracks or research/units when we can build them.
 
Personally I wouldn't atm as they will only add 1 food to the resource tile and were unlikely to be using coastal tiles for a while. Much better to concentrate on barracks or research/units when we can build them.

I agree!

Research > Barracks > Units
 
-Not enamored with idea of conquering a distant neighbor when we are already at only +2 gold :) , especially since that means teching war stuff instead of Currency or Monarchy.
-But if we resolve to do so, yes I think a galley or two and a road to the crossing point (by the 3 sugars) will be needed. Looks way too far to walk around.

War?? I think we need to do something bold in this game and I would still prefer to attack Brennus then move onto Ram. Ramesses is usually a bit of a pushover and by the time we get to him we will have quite a few units + promoted ones (hopefully) and just run through him. Though if we do go for Ram first building a coiuple of galleys and shipping units over from the mainland seems more efficient especially if we have one move units.
Perhaps going to war with Ramesses should warrant a good bit of thought. Simply attacking on the suspicion of weapons of mass destruction, err, I mean, benefits of world wonders isn't enough.
By attacking Ramesses early (ASAP, before Brennus) what do we hope to gain:
1) The Pyramids = early Representation government.
2) More land + population = pretty much always best in the long run.
3) Removing a rival.

I agree with Sleepless that Ram is a pushover, so with regards to 2) and 3) waiting some amount of time, eg, until after we take out Brennus should be fine. Ram improves his lands for us, and settles more cities for us, possibly even building more infrastructure for us. Removing a rival is only really useful for the end-game - in terms of tech rate they are better off alive.

So I think it comes down to how much we desire the Pyramids.

The main costs of the plan are A) cost of researching military techs instead of economic techs, B) similar cost for building military units instead of infrastructure, C) cost to GNP associated with unit upkeep and extra city maintenance when we have his cities.

I haven't crunched the numbers... but my instinct tells me that the benefit of the Pyramids is less than the cost in this case.

Two further points:
- It might be possible to take the Pyramids with some kind of surgical strike, depending on where they are built. This should be revealed by our exploring chariot soon enough.
- We will get the Pyramids eventually, it's just a matter of time.

I quite like the idea of conquering Brennus using quality units (eg, Cats + Maces or Swords) and then cleaning up Ramesses afterwards.

For now we focus on domestic development, ie, libraries + Research builds instead of Barracks. I think a suitable tech path would be Maths > Currency > CoL > Civil Service > Construction > Machinery. Meanwhile we aim to Steal IW and trade for/steal Monarchy.
 
Updated PPP

Tech Trades
1. Trade Priesthood to Brennus for Hunting this turn.
2. Trade Writing to Brennus for Polytheism this turn
Look for additional trade deals

Turn Set Research Plan
Mathematics > Currrency

City Builds
1. Paris - change to Spy & Whip It; finish Chariot; Research

2. Orleans - Change to Research; finish Barracks when hammers start to decay.

3. Lyons - Losing hammers on Chariot build in queue! Switch to Chariot & 1-pop whip; finish Forge w/whip overflow; Research

4. Rheims - Finish Forge; start Barracks

5. Tours - 1-Pop Whip Library; Spy w/additional 1-pop Whip; Granary; Research

6. Marseilles - finish Work Boat; build/whip Granary; start Library

Unit Moves
Get Spies to Brennus ASAP
Chariot 1 continues to Explore around Egyptian Borders.
Chariot 3 remains in Tours for City Garrison duties. He's due a Promotion! Options are Combat I, Flanking I, or save promotion for later. Opinions?
Chariot 4 remains near Barb city, hoping to pick off a Barb Worker.
Trireme 1 explores to NW & W.
Warriors remain in place for fogbusting.

Worker Actions
Infrastructure improvements: Mines, Cottages, Deer Camps, etc.

Civics/Religion Changes
None planned.

Diplomatic Actions
None planned. Will not sign OB Treaty with Ramesses, or any new neighbors if met.

Reasons to Pause
Planned mid-turn set pause after Mathematics.
Meeting any new neighbors.
Anything unusual happens.
 
Forgot about our Great Prophet! After trading for Polytheism, he'll want to bulb Monotheism, but we could self research that in 6 turns or less.

Neither Bren or Ram has Monotheism yet, although they could be researching it now. Both would likely trade something for Mono, as OR is their favorite Civic, and neither has adopted it yet.

Another research option for us would be to research Monotheism, see what we can get for it in trade, and use the GP to bulb Theology. That should make us the Christianity founders, and would allow us to start building the AP somewhere. Opinions?
 
I don't have access to the save. Is it possible to get screenshots of the internals of our cities?

Comments on the updated PPP:

Paris spy build - Is this a 1-pop whip? If Paris works all of its mines, couldn't it just build a spy naturally in 2 turns?

Orleans - how many hammers invested in the barracks? I don't suppose it really matters with the order of Research or Barracks.

Lyons - as with Paris, couldn't it just complete the chariot build naturally without a 1-pop whip? or even better, multi-pop whip the forge and overflow into chariot?

Rheims - Do we need to build the barracks straight away?

Tours - so many 1-pop whips. Did I miss a memo? I would have thought that a granary build is the best thing since sliced bread, yet it is 3rd in the queue here. I get that we want a Spy ASAP, if that's the case, then put it 1st in the queue.

Marseilles - this sounds a lot more normal.

Great Prophet - I think we just settle it in Paris. Holding on to it to build a shrine is kind of wasteful, and the bulb options are medicore. Though, I'm not opposed to shooting for the AP...

Diplo - I assume we aren't signing OB with Ram from fear of upsetting his worst enemy? I think the time has come for us to sign it, so that Chariot 1 can go through his lands and meet some more AI.
 
Diplo - I assume we aren't signing OB with Ram from fear of upsetting his worst enemy? I think the time has come for us to sign it, so that Chariot 1 can go through his lands and meet some more AI.

Agree, meeting more AI is optimal for us now we have Alphabet.

We shuld be checking every turn for Brennus going WHEOOH as well.
 
No whipping PARIS! Especially for 1 pop. :(
 
Screens for AJ!

NOTE! I changed tile use in the cities to what I would do with them. They are definitely different than when opening the save. 1 thing to note, in Lyons, we are losing hammers on the chariot already. I would 2 pop whip a barracks here, overflow to finish the forge and then finish the chariot.
 
Thanks Ron :D

Paris - as I suspected, just build the Spy normally using the tiles Ron has rearranged on to. After the Spy is built, rearrange back to research focused tiles, eg, scientist specialists and cottages. I'm surprised to see there are no cottages built. Is this a sign that we are short on workers?

Lyons - A forge costs 120 :hammers:, but we get a 100% bonus since we are Ind. It makes more sense to build (or whip) the forge first, so that overflow and future builds will also benefit from the +25% of the forge.

Rheims - would be nice if we could spread Buddhism here for the +1 :). Does Brennus have any more missionaries coming our way? Perhaps Paris could go the Monastery > Missionary route instead of the Build Research?

The :) cap is a real issue isn't it... Given that capturing the Pyramids is potentially quite a long way away, I wonder if Monarchy (+HRule +warrior building) would be a stronger tech for us than Currency.
 
The problem with Lyons is we just passed the 2 pop whip opportunity(on the Forge). Hence my thinking of putting a couple turns into the Barracks and 2 pop whipping that, then the overflow finishes the Forge because of the Industrial bonus on the 20+ overflow hammers.

We could 2 pop whip another worker in Lyons also I suppose.

Happy cap is a problem now, Gems are worth 2 happy with our cheap forges and need to be a priority IMO.

I think the reason there are no cottages in Paris is we have been using it as our primary hammer city early. A conversion to cottages would be appropriate IMO.
 
Couple more thoughts...

Agree happy cap is a problem but teching Monarchy would be a waste as hopefully we will pick it up in trade shortly. There is another Bud missionary in our lands (I think) so no need for a monastery build in Paris atm. Once we have stole IW we get a +2 boost from gems (once mined) so need to make sure we have the tile roaded and ready to be mined asap. Note assuming we settle the sugar/gem site calendar will giv us 3 happy resources as well.

Cottages in Paris? If we are going the war route I would just farm/mine mostly here. I'm sure building research early will be more beneficial in terms of beakers.

Great Prophet. I would have settled it but now we should just save it for a shrine as we need 3. I don't see the point in teching mono - bulb theo. Its more than likely Ram will bulb Theo and build the AP for us. I'd prefer if we were bulbing to use a GS on philo and build that shrine. But sure we could take another along the way anyway if needed. So my vote goes for Bud shrine.

Tech. Still like Math - Construction.
 
Attached are screen shots of our cities as they are currently configured. This configuration is what I looked at in developing the current PPP. I think it is a bit unfair to criticize the PPP based on reconfigured cities which I hadn't seen until I checked the Team Thread this morning.

That being said, I don't have a problem reassigning the citizens in any city, if the Team decides that the way we should go. However, it should be pointed out that we are currently running 0% Science and only generating +2 :gold:/turn, so the only :science: we are generating are coming from the Scientists currently being employed. Reassigning those Scientists to work Mines or Cottages will pretty much shuts down our progress on any research.

Therefore, I think we need more consensus on how much research we want to sacrifice for short term production before I revise the PPP.

Additional comments...

Workers: we have 4 Workers for our 6 cities, so IMO, Yes, we need more workers.

Paris: no matter if it employs 2 Scientists or works 2 more Plains Hill Mines, it is still at stagnant growth and at it's happy cap. Additional tile improvements in Paris' BFC are a waste of Worker Turns without a Temple to raise the happy cap so that the newly improved tiles could be worked, and a Temple only raises the Happy Cap by 1.

Spy whipping in Paris: as currently configured, adding a Spy to the build queue indicates 4 turns to build, or a 2-pop whip with 20 :hammers: overflow. Paris is currently generating 10 :hammers:/turn, so I think we could build the Spy for 1 turn and still 2-pop whip it, generating 30 :hammers: overflow. (Others here are much better than I on calculating whip overflow, so please check me on this) Reassigning the 2 Scientists to PH Mines builds the Spy in 2 turns. I don't see a way to get the Spy out in 1 turn. Again, I can do it either way with team consensus. Perhaps we should go the 2-pop route and put the overflow into a Worker?

Orleans: 5 :hammers: are invested in the current 50 :hammers: Barracks build. Building Research here and in other cities is just a stop-gap measure to supplement our pitiful research rate while we heads toward Currency or some other tech.

Lyons: could reassign the 2 scientists to PH Mine & forested PH, and complete the Chariot & Forge in 2 & 3 turns respectively, at a cost of 7.50 :science:/turn. Or could reassign a Cottage to the riverside PH Mine and complete the Chariot & Forge in 3 & 5 turns respectively, keeping the 7.50 :science:/turn but losing 2 :gold:/turn, which would make our Treasury have Zero income. Or we could try R1's plan of 2-pop whipping a Barracks. We have 13 :hammers: invested in the 30 :hammers: Chariot build, and are losing 1 hammer/turn if we don't move it up in the build queue. Not sure how many turns we would have to build a Barracks before getting a decent overflow from whipping. How much do we care about losing hammers on the Chariot build?

Tours: the 1-pop whip of Spy was based on the theory that we wanted to get 2 Spies down to Brennus ASAP. If we don't want to whip here, might be better just to build 2 spies in Paris.

Brennus has 1 Buddhist Missionary near us, he is currently 3E of Tours. Not sure if he is heading toward Rheims or Marseilles.
 
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