SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Ronnie1]

IMO, we need to grow our cities.

We have cities that are stagnant at below happy cap levels and we are not working our best tiles.

 

[Ozbenno]

OK see that I'm up. Will be a couple of days before I can get a PPP in order, if that is fine or someone can jump in front.

 

[kcd_swede]

Decathlon Objectives Page updated...

10> Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. STATUS: Achieved.

Congratulations!

 

[Grifftavian]

Screens for AJ!

NOTE! I changed tile use in the cities to what I would do with them. They are definitely different than when opening the save. ...

IMO, we need to grow our cities.

We have cities that are stagnant at below happy cap levels and we are not working our best tiles.

Turn 104/500 (275 BC) [27-Oct-2012 10:03:38]
A Mine was built near Marseilles
Rheims begins: Worker (10 turns)
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 9 per turn, 13 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Lyons

It is currently Turn 114. We have one (1) city, Lyons, that is below it's happy cap (5 > 4), and that is because it has just now recovered it's unhappy citizen from it's last round of whipping.

This make two consecutive turn sets where you have criticized the tiles that were being worked by the Team Member who played the turn set. McArine worked the tiles he thought were best during his turn set, and I worked the tiles I thought were best during my turn set. I was not trying to deliberately misplay or sabotage the game, and I do not believe McArine was either.

If neither one of us played our turn sets the exactly way you would have played them, THAT'S JUST TOO DAMN BAD. DEAL WITH IT!

Just because you have an opinion about which tiles are the best to work does not mean that you are correct and everyone else is wrong! When your turn set comes up, if you want to reassign all the Scientists to the fields and completely shut down all our research progress, that will be your prerogative.

In case you have forgotten, this is a Succession Game, where all the Team Members take turns playing the game according to their own unique set of skills and abilities. It is not a Democracy Game, and it sure as hell is not a game where you dictate to everyone else exactly how they should play the game! Your continued criticism of the way other Team Members play their turn sets is both unwarranted and unwelcome. Please stop immediately.

 

[Ronnie1]

I have played every succession game starting with SGOTM 2. I have played Demo games, I have played other team games, I have played multi-player games. In every aspect I have always given my opinion freely and sometimes firmly. I am not trying to offend anyone, however, disagreements will inevitably occur when humans come into contact. The reason I started playing succession games was so I could learn from other players. The reason I value C63's opinion so mightily is the long list of awards after is name in the Pantheon of Heros. In order to compete for the Laurels, it will take our best efforts in an ongoing manner. As Timmy pointed out long ago here, "little things" matter, especially early in the game.

IMO, planning not reacting is the key. Unfortunately I didn't have time to post any thoughts on your PPP until after you played. This post here was a bit late, but the situation in Cuman is the perfect example of not stopping when you noticed Brennus marching on the city.

I also want to say that everyone plays sets poorly sometimes, including me! The Gandhi blunder comes immediately to my mind.

I just feel there was a lack of attention to detail, both in the planning and execution.

 

[Sleepless]

OK see that I'm up. Will be a couple of days before I can get a PPP in order, if that is fine or someone can jump in front.

Ok with me. I'll be away for a week or so next week. Off to Las Vegas with a few friends so should be an interesting time..

Back to the game.

Resources/trade routes. With the barb city gone if we unfog the western tiles we will have a trade route to Ram. I did see if we could get Brennus's iron in trade but he wouldn't do it for all our resources. Might be an idea to ask for it for free now he's pleased with us. Not something I could do with the game obviously but we can do the possible resource trades without agreeing to it.

Great Persons. Would a GS bulb Machinery?? Need to check but pretty certain a GE would so thats a possibility and beneficial to keep GPs running in Paris for the next 5 turns.

Red fist.. Though it could be us very likely Ram is aiming for Brennus but having a scouting unit in Rams lands to see where his troops are/going would be an idea.

Espionage. Atm we can only steal Mono but hopefully once we get to the 50% discount we will have enough points to steal IW.

Tech. If we want an early war I still think construction would be the way to go. Currency if we would rather expand. The island to the West looks promising and as a city the ph NW of the gems site would make a good cottage site. I'm still torn between the 2 ideas though taking over both Brennus/Ram would give us a nice big island to play with.

 

[Sleepless]

Great people.

The GE would def bulb Machinery not sure if would need IW though?? GS we would need Aesthetics - compass - calendar before machinery so not really offering much there. An academy wouldn't be much use either so we can save for a later bulb perhaps towards Lib. Possibly philo if we are first as we have the prophet.

 

[Ronnie1]

Comments in blue

NOTE! I changed tile use in the cities to what I would do with them. They are definitely different than when opening the save.

I expect everyone to open the current save and evaluate every detail to look for areas that can be improved. That is the nature of the succession game.

It is currently Turn 114. We have one (1) city, Lyons, that is below it's happy cap (5 > 4), and that is because it has just now recovered it's unhappy citizen from it's last round of whipping.

Actually there are 3 (Tours, Rheims)

The issue in Lyons is a very important point though. If we fire both scientists now, it will take us 3 turns to grow minimum. We could have run 1 Scientist and worked a cottage for 6 turns and been ready to grow the pop point back the exact same turn the whip anger wore off. We currently have a 4th cottage available in Lyons and a worker building a fifth. You can't complain about a lack of commerce and not work the cottages.

Tours,(5 > 4) just grew to size 4, and passed the 2 pop whip threshold on the current build granary. Obviously under happy cap because it can't get there yet. We could have used worker turns (2 mines un-worked) to chop the forest into a farm to speed growth here. The big issue here is going past 2 pop whip threshold on the granary. With low food, the granary is a critical building. 2 pop whipping it would also have given us 1/2 Forge in whip overflow.

Rheims,(5 > 4) size 4, 2 turns minimum to size 5

Orleans, just grew to size 5, and passed the 2 pop whip threshold on the current build barracks. If you are not going to grow and whip, then coming off the fish and working the FP Cottage is + Commerce.

 

[Ronnie1]

I'm not sold on running any more engineers either. We wanted 1 early to try and turn the GProhet into a GE. Now though, improved tiles are certainly better value than engineer specialists.

 

[Sleepless]

I'm not sold on running any more engineers either. We wanted 1 early to try and turn the GProhet into a GE. Now though, improved tiles are certainly better value than engineer specialists.

I'd keep the one in Paris now as it will dilute the prophet points and give us the possibility of bulbing machinery. X-bows will be good stack defenders/attackers (if we have iron).

 

[adrianj]

Nice turnset Griff Thanks for all the screenshots

I guess we have two competing short-term strategies at the moment, both of them are about attacking Brennus.

1) Research Construction and attack ASAP using Cats + ??? (Worst case Chariots, best case Swords).
This way we can mop him up while his empire is still small. Also means we can build and benefit from Budd shrine earlier. But it won't be an easy fight as we don't have much of a tech lead. It will also be more difficult to keep the economy afloat.
Added option of researching/bulbing machinery (provided we have iron) in which case Cats + Crossbows/Swords could be quite effective.

2) Research Currency > CoL > CS > Construction > Machinery.
Much longer tech path, so it gives Brennus more time to develop. We attack with Cats + Maces = quite a strong combination (though this assumes iron also). Our economy will be in a better position. Better chance for Brennus to build Budd shrine for us. Worst case from the delay is that Brennus techs Feudalism and gets longbows.

I strongly suggest we come to an agreement on what we do here. A number of choices are based on the decision:
A) what to do with GProph. Option 1) definitely implies we save it for shrine, Option 2) might make us lean toward settling.
B) tech path. Obviously.
C) build path. Gear for war, or keep on with infrastructure/research


Whether or not we have iron is an important question in any case actually... we need iron for swords and crossbows, and either kind of metal for maces. If we don't have iron... then we are pretty much forced to declare war using chariots to at least capture a metal.

I propose someone play a really short set of turns up until the theft of IW. Tech in the meantime = Currency? Construction? Probably Construction is better, since option 1) is more time limited.

 

[Sleepless]

I really really really want to attack Brennus asap....

Trouble is I'm not sure its the best move...

With our low happy cap it doesn't give us much room for whipping up a big army quickly. We do have a few forests to chop which would help. Would definitley want construction next in this case.

The other option is to expand as quickly as possible. Being able to run scientists/build research would allow us to still tech reasonably. In which case a faster strike using more advanced units would seem better. In this case I would vote for currency next.

Without the island to the West I would go for attacking Brennus asap. With the island I would prefer to go for a more conservative route and settle what we can on our mainland i.e (sugar/gem asap) then settle the island and leave Brennus/Ram for later.

 

[Grifftavian]

I have played every succession game starting with SGOTM 2. I have played Demo games, I have played other team games, I have played multi-player games. In every aspect I have always given my opinion freely and sometimes firmly. I am not trying to offend anyone, however, disagreements will inevitably occur when humans come into contact. The reason I started playing succession games was so I could learn from other players. ...

Nobody cares how many or what type of games you have played. The problem here, as I see it, is that you never offered any opinions, just criticism. In the first case, you posted altered screen shots that did not reflect the current game situation. You merely stated that this is the way you would have done it. You did not provide any details of what changes you made, why you made them or why you thought they were better than what the previous player had in place. No opinions offered, just criticism of the tiles that the other player was working. At the end you my turn set, you made the blanket statement that we were not working our best tiles. You offered no opinion as to which tiles you thought would be better to work and why you thought they would be better. No opinions offered, just criticism of the the tiles that I was working at the end of my turn set. You may not be trying to offend anyone, but you are offending me. I've learned a lot from playing previous Succession Games, too. So far, the only thing I'm learning from this one is that there are only two ways to play Civilization: your way and the wrong way.

I just feel there was a lack of attention to detail, both in the planning and execution.

Once again, we disagree. I posted a Partial Draft PPP for City Builds on Wednesday, October 24th at 7:41 AM my time. I received 4 comments on the Partial Draft PPP that day, including yours, and posted an Updated PPP later that same day at 7:06 PM my time. I received about 14 comments in the next 35 hours, including 5 from you. I posted a Revised PPP at 6:32 AM my time on Friday, October 26th. In the ensuing 27 hours, I received one comment that the Revised PPP looked good, and a couple of others about not burning the Great Prophet, which I did not do. I started playing my turn set, based on this 3rd revision of the PPP, just before 10:00 AM my time on Saturday, October 27th, which was a full 74 hours after I posted my initial Draft PPP. Your assertion that there was a lack of attention to detail in the planning of this just plain damn wrong, and the fact that you didn't get around to making comments about the 3rd Revision of my PPP until after I had played does not change that, you are still wrong.

And your assertion that there was a lack of attention to detail in the execution of my turn set is not only extremely offensive, is is also condescending and very insulting, and I do not appreciate it one damn bit! Other than the fact that I did not play this turn set exactly the way you would have, you have no way in the world to know how much attention to detail I did or did not pay while playing my turn set, so JUST SHUT UP! Who do you think you are? My time is just as valuable to me as your time is to you. If you don't appreciate all the time and effort I've been putting into this silly damn game, you can kiss my ass!

Based on all the bragging you were doing at the beginning of your post, I guess you think you are a better Civ 4 player than I am. Maybe you are, I don't know and I certainly do not care. All I know is that I am sick and tired of the way you criticize my PPPs and how I play my turn sets significantly more than you do with the other players on this team. I no longer wish to put up with your insults or your sorry damn condescending attitude.

This game has stopped being fun for me. Effectively immediately, I am resigning from the team.

Good Luck.

 

[Conquistador 63]

@Griff & Ronnie1:

Not sure what to say about the current situation. It is definitely a shame things came to this point. I'd be glad to know if there is anything I could do to help for you to reach some sort of understanding. For all that I could read so far, it was all with the best intentions from each side. My respects for both of you.

Peace all.

 

[Sleepless]

Not sure what to say as well. I hope you reconsider Grifftavian. I've enjoyed playing the last couple of SGOTMs with you and would be sad to see you dropout especially like this.

 

[timmy827]

I think I lean towards option 1), going Construction now and making do (hopefully) with swords from stolen IW. I worry that adrianj's option 2 will indeed give Brennus the time for longbows, especially since our tech rate is not likely to be great anytime soon with more expansion, and I'm not convinced that maces+xbows+cats vs. longbows is a faster strike than cats/swords/axes vs archer/sword/axes. To be honest I'm worried about the war slowing research to a crawl (especially if Ramssess cuts off open borders, hopefully the naval explorations proposed do give us trade routes), but worry that option 2) will also keep us on the edge without the advantage of killing a rival early.

In terms of our happy cap for whipping - good news is hopefully the IW steal will give us +2 in our developed cities soon (gems + forges). In that vein maybe we should think about having the Lyons and/or Tours workers (#3 and 4) road towards Marsellies now; the cottages they are currently building don't seem too urgent (Lyons currently has two unworked already) and if IW is stolen they will be in better position to quickly bring the gems and pig online.

A short set for IW steal try doesn't sound like a bad idea. Come on 80% roll...

One note: We could mostly suspend research until IW stolen if we are unsure of tech path/larger "war soon?" decision. (Put paris on something else, get rid of most scientists maybe keeping the 2 in Paris for next great person).

________

Also sad to see that a teammate has left, and hope Griff does reconsider.

 

[adrianj]

@Griff - please don't go

I think I am also leaning toward Construction as our next tech...

@Timmy, re suspending research. I also thought this is a good idea, but as you point out it's not so simple as just adjusting the slider anymore. Since most of our comes from direct sources like scientists and building Research, the solution is to fire the scientists (work mines) and build something else, eg, barracks in cities that don't already have one.
Most likely the "tap will still be dripping" so to speak, so what I'm saying is that it might as well drip into Construction rather than Currency = playing optimistically that we have iron.

 

[Sleepless]

Yep our research rate isn't great..

I played around with the save a bit. Re-assigned GPs/built research and worked most of the flood plains. This enabled us to get either currency or construction in 7 turns making 9 gold per turn @ 0% slider. Gives us approx 60 beakers per turn though this will increase a bit with time/gems etc.

Off to read up on ep points and see if I can find the base rate to steal IW and try and work out approx how many we need. I know AJ calculated it earlier so see how that looks.

Edit: Still haven't got a clue how many we need I do know we haven't got enough yet though. Hopefully the discount for stationary spy will give us enough. I also think it will be worth stealing as soon as we are able/or try anyway. I don't think there is an advantage to waiting except the lower cost of stealing though the longer the spy is stationed the more chance of being caught.

Will add I don't mind playing a couple of turns till we get to steal IW (or get caught)!!!!

 

[Conquistador 63]

Stealing IW:
I suggest trying to steal it when we have 40% discount (spy stationed 4 turns), as the odds of failure seems to go up on the 5th turn. Is the spy already stationed in the former barb city? It should be cheaper to steal there.

That said, I'm ok with sleepless playing on.

If Griff doesn't reconsider (please do!), is anyone willing to step up to team captain's duties, that is, updating team roster etc?

 

[Sleepless]

Stealing IW:
I suggest trying to steal it when we have 40% discount (spy stationed 4 turns), as the odds of failure seems to go up on the 5th turn. Is the spy already stationed in the former barb city? It should be cheaper to steal there.

That said, I'm ok with sleepless playing on.

If Griff doesn't reconsider (please do!), is anyone willing to step up to team captain's duties, that is, updating team roster etc?

Second spy is heading towards Cuman? will take a couple of turns to get there + plus the waiting time. Its not alot cheaper than the city where the spy is now though. If you compare the costs of stealing tech that is.

Still hoping griff will come back but don't fancy being team captain if he doesn't come back.