SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

We can trade for Archery but the price is too high (Metal Casing or Alphabet I think), it is from Brennus though so could trade Alphabet to him and see if he could bring in something else via trade (unlikely). Would say easier to research it ourselves, so Archery after Construction it is.

I think we let Brennus devote his resources to new cities, we can take them/raze them later.

Agree, we don't have any cheap techs to include for Archery. Also remember we already have Archery half done. So probably just finish it ourselves.
Idea with Christianity: Since we are presumably staying Buddhist, we can use the free missionary as another scout in Celtic lands for war preparation.

I don't think we tech anything after completing Construction, Machinery, Archery. Currency would probably be the logical choice but I'm strongly in favor of all-out war preps once we have those military techs. Since all cities to unit building and all scientists put back to mines, may as well park slider on 0 and save some gold. (I imagine we research Currency burning through the plunder gold from the first 2-3 city captures...and possibly extort Calendar from him once we've cripple him sufficiently)
 
Sorry for the 2x post. Would like to suggest a pause when Construction/Archery/Machinery are in or soon after - concurrent with some scouting reports on Brennus. Since the war is crucial I would like the team to come to some rough agreement on amount of units and battle plans before starting the unit builds in earnest.
 
Sorry for the 2x post. Would like to suggest a pause when Construction/Archery/Machinery are in or soon after - concurrent with some scouting reports on Brennus. Since the war is crucial I would like the team to come to some rough agreement on amount of units and battle plans before starting the unit builds in earnest.

I think we will need a substantial amount of Cats, and think we should start building them ASAP!

I agree that a plan for attacking needs to be pretty solid.

@Timmy, post as many posts in a row as you require. I often just stream thoughts in posts so I don't forget what I'm thinking. It will happen to you also with age!:crazyeye::confused::lol:
 
Sorry for being away lately, had to travel on short notice. I'll try to catch up with the game as soon as RL allows.

Just wondering if there could be another strategy that didn't involve attacking our strong and friendly neighbor. Need to check this game objectives again, though. :confused:
 
Sorry for being away lately, had to travel on short notice. I'll try to catch up with the game as soon as RL allows.

Just wondering if there could be another strategy that didn't involve attacking our strong and friendly neighbor. Need to check this game objectives again, though. :confused:
Attacking Ramesses 1st, but it seems sooner or later Brennus will have to go away!;)
 
I agree with Ozbennos preliminary plan.
Definitely should get Iron hooked up asap, so we can start getting some axes and swords built.

Atm. I don't think we need to discuss the exact plans for attacking, just get us Construction, Archery, and the two bulbs, so we can turn on the war factorys.

I don't think we should use resources beating Brennus to any settling sites, just let him waste hammers on that.

And I think we should attack Brennus first, and Ramesses immediately after him. So we get control of the entire island.

Ozbenno, can we get a detailed PPP soon?
 
Ozbenno, can we get a detailed PPP soon?

Sure, why not ;)

Highlights in RED where unsure.

Great People
-Bulb Theology straight away - means we're gambling that we can generate more prophets or capture other shrines
- Bulb machinery when we can bulb it all

Research
- Finish Construction
- Select Archery next but with all the scientists fired.

Worker Stuff
- Hook up gems asap
- Hook up iron asap

Cities
- Paris - Research - Catapults
- Orleans - Worker - Research - Catapults
- Lyons - Worker - Research - Catapults
- Rheims - Worker - Research - Catapults
- Tours - Forge - Barracks
- Marseilles - Forge
-All cities - as they come off research once Construction is in, scientists replaced by high growth for +2 happy with gems.

Units
Move the south warrior 1W and chariot 1W for better fogbusting
I'm sure someone figured out through EP allocations that Ramesses knows another AI, any idea where they could be to find them??

Usual stopping for anything unusual.

Will look to play this weekend so a couple days left to comment. Was thinking to play until iron is on-line so we can plan our army builds better.
 
Sounds good to me!
 
Sure, why not ;)

Highlights in RED where unsure.

Great People
-Bulb Theology straight away
- Bulb machinery when we can bulb it all
I agree on Theo. Right now we only have 2 religions on our landmass, think it makes sense to guarantee the 3rd.
Again, I don't think our pop is gonna be high enough to bulb all of Machinery. So doing it at a 'local max' of pop is fine - probably before doing the first round of catapult whips.

I'm sure someone figured out through EP allocations that Ramesses knows another AI, any idea where they could be to find them??
Maybe the small bits of Egypt's west coast we don't see yet; maybe there's another AI across a narrow channel? Or, maybe I was wrong about the EP thing; sometimes AI will turn the EP slider on, which could have 'unbalanced' the counts and made me think there was a 4th in play.

Question: At times when examining older saves, I think there have been times where Ram and Brennus have switched back and forth from 'worst enemies' to not. If there was a time where one was Annoyed but he wasn't the worst enemy, that would be proof of another AI. (Unless we were the worst enemy at that time). I dunno if anyone's memory is good enough; maybe it's worth examining old autosaves? (That is kosher by SGOTM rules right - we can open old saves as long as we don't move any units or replay turns?)

Will look to play this weekend so a couple days left to comment. Was thinking to play until iron is on-line so we can plan our army builds better.
Sure, sounds like a fine stopping point.
 
I dunno if anyone's memory is good enough; maybe it's worth examining old autosaves? (That is kosher by SGOTM rules right - we can open old saves as long as we don't move any units or replay turns?)

Yep, as long as you don't move anything or change city builds or the like, you are fine.
 
PPP looks good.

A quick calculation:
Machinery costs 1050 :science: (is this correct?)
A GE bulb gives 1000 + 2*pop.
We would need (1050-1000)/2 = 25 pop to completely bulb it.
I'm sure we can get very close to that with our 6 cities, and if we are short it won't be by very much at all.

I think bulb Theology immediately.
 
Right then of we go.

Played until iron is online, as is gems.

Construction is also in and Archery 4 turns off at 0% research. Accidently pressed enter while taking screenshot at end of the turn so save is at beginning of 300AD rather than end of 275AD :blush:.

We are the proud founders of Christianity

civ4screenshot0024.jpg


And our cities are growing

civ4screenshot0025c.jpg


So I guess what troops do we want (swords, cats and eventually xbows) and how do we want to produce them (chops/whips etc)

GE won't bulb Machinery fully yet. If we're going heavy handed on the whip bulb what we can first.

Spoiler :

Turn 121, 150 AD: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 121, 150 AD: Christianity has been founded in Lyons!
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have trained a Worker in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 121, 150 AD: You have trained a Worker in Rheims. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 124, 225 AD: Mohammed Shah (Great Prophet) has been born in Memphis (Ramesses II)!

Turn 125, 250 AD: Orleans has become happy.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Rheims has become happy.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Tours can hurry Barracks for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Orleans will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 125, 250 AD: Rheims will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 125, 250 AD: You have discovered Construction!

Turn 126, 275 AD: Orleans has grown to size 6.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Rheims has grown to size 6.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Paris will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Marseilles will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Ramesses II is the worst enemy of Brennus.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Brennus is the worst enemy of Ramesses II.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Brennus will trade Archery
Turn 126, 275 AD: Brennus will trade Pig
Turn 126, 275 AD: Paris will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Marseilles will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 126, 275 AD: Buddhism has spread in Isca.

Turn 127, 300 AD: Paris has grown to size 7.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Orleans will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Lyons can hurry Catapult for 1⇴ with 23ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 14 turns.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Rheims will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Marseilles has grown to size 3.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Orleans will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Rheims will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Ramesses II is the worst enemy of Brennus.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Brennus is the worst enemy of Ramesses II.
Turn 127, 300 AD: Brennus will trade Archery
Turn 127, 300 AD: Brennus will trade Pig
 
Well done, Oz.

Assorted questions and thoughts:

I'm eager to learn from the team how to win such an uphill war like this one. How many units before attacking etc.
A couple of galleys would suffice for us to attack Ramesses before Brennus. He's a softer target, his cities are more juicier either.
Should we revolt to Theocracy for unit XP now? I think that was the main point of bulbing Theology.
Do we really want to bulb with the GE? It costs 1096. Options would be the AP or even Hagia Sophia.
 
AP
It would be nice to build the AP mainly just to ensure it is on our continent.

A Buddhist AP could prove problematic for our war vs Brennus however. He has more cities than us, so I'm guessing it is also likely he has more Buddhist population than us = he votes himself in as the pope. He could then use this to force the end of our war, which we presumably would have to veto and incur :mad: in all our Buddhist cities.

GE
Our choices for the GE are bulb for 1000+ :science: on Machinery. Since our raw :commerce: gets multiplied by libraries and optional prereq bonuses, etc, that 1000 :science: actually is only worth ~700 :commerce:.
Or rush something like the AP. AP costs something like 400 :hammers:? But again, we have multipliers of Forge and Industrious giving a raw cost of 236 :hammers:.

(If this implies 1 :hammers: = 3:commerce:, then a settled GE is worth 4:hammers:, or 12:commerce:. It would take 59 turns for a settled GE to give an equal return on investment to the options given above)

Axes vs Crosbows
Another way to look at it:
How many :hammers: could Machinery save us? Crossbowmen cost 60 :hammers: compared to 40 for swordsmen, or 35 for axes. Swords are actually better attackers if we're attacking Archers, though Crossbows are clearly better if cities defended by axes or Brennus Gallic Warrior UU.
So, we shouldn't compare crossbows with swords, but rather axes, since we'll want to build swords regardless. And I'll assume the target unit is a defending Gallic Warrior.
I'll also assume our units have 2 promos, CR1/2, and defenders have 1 promo plus the free one, Guerilla1+Combat1. Also assume city defenses have been bombarded away, and units fully fortified.

Axe vs GW on flat land (defender mods -0.7) = 5.0 vs 6.6/1.7 = 5.0 vs 3.53. Odds about 76%.
Axe vs GW on hill (defender mods -0.25) = 5.0 vs 6.6/1.25 = 5.0 vs 5.28. Odds about 34%.

If we attack 20 Gallic Warriors and half the cities are hills, we expect to need ~43 axes. Total cost = 43*35 = 1505 :hammers:.

Assume our Crossbows have Combat1+Shock promo. They also have a first strike.
CB vs GW on flat (defender mods -0.5) = 6.6 vs 6.6/1.5 = 6.6 vs 4.4. Odds about 93%.
CB vs GW on hill (defender mods -0.05) = 6.6 vs 6.6/1.05 = 6.6 vs 6.29. Odds about 71%.

Versus 20 GWs we expect to need about 25 CBs. Total cost = 25 * 60 = 1500. Wow! That's a pretty crazy coincidence! Machinery saves us a negligible number of :hammers:

This analysis is actually quite generous toward crossbows, because it assumes we haven't used suicide cats. With suicide cats it doesn't really matter if it is an axe or a CB attacking, both should have very high odds.

Ummm... so... in what situation would crossbows be better than axes? Only if we are attacking other crossbows or axes really.
 
Another point. A settled GE + a forge is worth between 3 and 4 :hammers:/turn, or a bonus axe every 9-12 turns.
 
Was going to make the point as well about AP that if we want to do this we should probably wait until we see of Brennus as he probably has more votes than us at this stage and can hinder our war effort and he may well have built temples etc and has a hammer bonus.

Settling is interesting as this is a long game, would be better if we had those Pyramids though.

Agree that we can cope with axes rather than crossbows, cheaper and will only be there for defence really, cats and swords should handle the attacking.
 
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