SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

soundjata · Sep 16, 2012

Agree on 1SW (option 1) or 1NW (option 2) for settler movement.

Warrior to 1SW shows one tile we get for option 1, although it's almost certainly a plain brown tile. (bonus stone?)

Warrior to 1NE clarifies the better settling of Fish city.

shakabrade · Sep 16, 2012

1 SW loses corn...

soundjata · Sep 16, 2012

Ah zip

Duckweed · Sep 16, 2012

sossos said:
just saw DW's new post. Edited.

It's always hard to assess SP vs Corporation. SP can provide faster return, but it will be surpassed by corporation in the long run if there is a limit on the city numbers. There must be a equilibrium point but it's hard to determine.

I think I can try corporation this time just to test whether it can be more effective within the game length of spce victory.

For this game, which is actually SSV like, the benefit of corporations (Sushi and Mine) is undoubted.

Let's look from the point where we have 3 critical techs : AL, Medicine, and Railroad. There are 16 techs to be researched without counting Mass Media. The total beakers needed are 139464/1.2 = 116200, even with 3000 bpt, we need 40 turns.

The cost of Corporations of this game is less than normal since we are required to have 3 HQs so that the cost of GE and GM can be ignored, which leaves only the cost of executives. The mine corporation pays back the fastest, with 20 mine resources, a city with CH will gain 100H in 5 turns and with the factory and power, it only needs 3 turns to pay the executive bill and then it will generate 40 hpt in the rest of the game. Sushi gets paid back slower since it needs time to grow the city, but the mature city could gain more as you have seen from my previous post. With our analysis and estimation in SGOTM12, it gets paid back 10 turns later. Since there are ~40 turns ahead, therefore almost all the cities will have enough time to gain from Mine and Sushi. The key is that you need to plan carefully to setup some hubs to spread them to your empire as fast as possible.

You can take a look at our SGOM12, or my BOTM37, without these 2 corporations, the result will be at least 10 turns slower.

soundjata said:
Regarding the diplo / cultural victory debate.

If these did only differ by a few turns on the victory date, it wouldn't really matter imo.

+ for cultural victory: We don't have to care about diplomacy and can consider every AI as a potential enemy.

+ for diplo victory: We can manipulate AIs through votes, which we failed to recognize in SG15, and which Kaku realized superbly.

Hmm, what is diplomacy if almost all AIs become your vassals?

kossin · Sep 16, 2012

NW or W for me without seeing the save. Hills for the capital will be important to spam those wonders and it's kinda hard to see them at the moment.

The advantage of SP early is the ability to quickly expand to a large amount of cities on 2 continents without crashing the economy. Even if islands are very prominent on the map, SP allows to set them up before Corporations become relevant as distance upkeep becomes large.

OTOH, if we have a large number of Sushi available, early Sushi is incredibly powerful as well, and bulbable with GS's.

IMO, we need to do like we do every game: establish an open start with a tactical goal in mind. Once that is reached, we can test/argue what path is best with the additional map knowledge.

Optics/Astronomy seems like the tipping point at the moment - either for more war, expansion or economy via GLH traderoutes. How to get there should be our main focus at the moment.

Oracle MC, build TGL, bulb GE+GS's into Machinery+Optics+Astro?
Oracle Currency, etc.

sossos · Sep 16, 2012

Quack Duckweed

(Ha, I find hydraculas and dingding in the session of SGOTM 12. Our native language are the same.)

80% of my feet is already at the side of corporation for this game, but I have to mention that the return of corporation has to be compared with SP since it's a trade-off betwen them.

Spoiler :

I agree with Kossin that the accurate calculation can be made after we got astronomy, the time when we have explored the world and have more data about how many muture cities/resources we can have till the game end.

sossos · Sep 16, 2012

Quack Kossin/Shaka/sound/bebe (missing one teammate abe?)

In regards to the goal of the first 100 turn, I think GLH + quick expansion is almost of no doubt at this difficulty level, until the marginal maintainence increase breaks even.

We need to encourage the AIs to research together with us (like the treaty in civ 5), so alphabet may also be prioritized. However, the currency may not be as important if most of our cities are coastal.

I'm not sure of monachy line and music line because we don't know what resource we can have. In addition to that, the previous judgements can also be wrong when the terrain and neighbours are known.

For the settler and warrior, basically I agree with Shaka's movement. 1NW or 1W for the settler is just a gambling and I cannot tell the difference. Maybe we need to move the warrior and guess.

Duckweed · Sep 16, 2012

sossos said:
Quack Duckweed

(Ha, I find hydraculas and dingding in the session of SGOTM 12. Our native language are the same.)

80% of my feet is already at the side of corporation for this game, but I have to mention that the return of corporation has to be compared with SP since it's a trade-off betwen them.

Spoiler :

SP take effects immediately based on the city #. If there is no upper limit of city#, SP support the fastest expansion with a gain of at least 5~10 fpt(workshop)+ 10 cpt(maintanence cost saving-trade income)+ 2hpt(10% bonus on production) +120 hammer(courthouse not needed) for every city. Therefore, the questoin is whether the return of the corporation can cover not only the investment of executives + spread cost+ GP(can be sunk cost in this game) , but also the trade-off loss between SP and FM(or Environmetalism) and less cities. If it cannot be returned in 40 turns or before the end of game, corporation will fail.

I agree with Kossin that the accurate calculation can be made after we got astronomy, the time when we have explored the world and have more data about how many muture cities/resources we can have till the game end.

Only 80% convinced? Hope the followings cover the rest 20%.

1. Before Communism, most of the cities will have CHs already, even after Communism, skipping CH in conquered cities are usually a loss since SP does not eliminate the cost of number of cities (capped at 7g, correct me if I'm rusty again.), that says you will lose 3.5gpt if skip CH, therefore, if a city is up 35 turns before victory, it should build CH even with SP.

2. Not all cities will have that many workshops, for instance, island cities, which we will keep all from conquering. On the other hand, we will leave most of the mainland cities in other continents to our vassals due to the domination limit.

3. FR offers an extra trade route, 6~9 C for city of size 20+.

4. Given all the benefit you mentioned about SP, the yield will be less than half of the mine corporation with 20 resources can offer, remember, mine corporation only need 3 turns to pay the executive bill and starts to contribute.

5 There's Sushi as well, which could be more powerful than Mine if it's up more than 15 turns.

Of course, the benefit of corporation relies heavily on the number of resources, however, we already knew the map type, there won't be dramatic deviation. 20 mine and 30 Sushi resources is a conservative estimation.

SP has little chance of coming to action since it stands on the opposite of Corporations. Going for Communism before Medicine and Railroad means the delay of corporations, which we want them as early as possible. The only reason of using SP is that we can trade Communism from AI before we have Corporation, you rarely can see emperor AIs research it before 1200AD.

We want to keep many things flexible and open before receiving more information in the progress of the game. However, there are also some key strategical decisions can be judged right from beginning. My 1st post basically covered the said issues. Those issues setup the goal periodically so that we can focus on optimizing the play to achieve them. For instance, how do we plan to produce a GE for the mine corporation? This has to be planned from very beginning.

shakabrade · Sep 16, 2012

@sossos

Numbers say 1 of 5 people are Chinese.
I think kossin is Chinese too so you are not alone.
Could be I am only Caucasian here since soundjata[/B is French and if I judge French from sport representations...

@at all

For instance, how do we plan to produce a GE for the mine corporation? This has to be planned from very beginning.

Click to expand...

Did some testing and answer is simple: beeline Fusion. We are going far into the tech tree afterall and Mining Inc. will... just kidding.

Seriously:
I usually get GE's purely by luck. I always assign engineer from forge and after 4-5 great people, I often get him, but that is not an approach we'll want. You can get it from IW+Forge+Factory but I think it is late and should be used only if desperate. I believe we'll go for HG 100% so there are 2GPP, do we want Mids is a question we don't have an answer to. And we have 3GPP from Forge. That is something. Generating GE first and saving him until Mining is the only reliable way I know of but is so suboptimal.

sossos · Sep 16, 2012

I think I have to setup a model to compare SP and Corporation, since GE is really a problem if there is no stone around.

Assumption 1: Communism and Corporation can be achieved at the same timeframe. (Actually Communism can be obtained earlier.)

Assumption 2: 20 turns are needed to spread the corporation to all cities. (20 can be a variant)

Assumption 3: the upper limit of city# are 60 for SP + no vassal. With corporation, only 30 cities can be built because of the colony expense.

Assumption 4: From the communism to FT1, 60 turns are needed. (60 can be a variant)

With SP, the city number can be increased to 60 with a snowball effect. If the additional 30 cities are conquered in 20 turns after communism, most of them can contribute at least 30 turns. Supposing each city can contribute 60 bpt (food/hammer can be converted to beaker), the additional 30 cities can contribute 54K by the end of game.
Comparatively, the SP effect on the first 30 cities is only 525 bpt/turn compared with FM.(estimated as 4 food+ 5 commerce+ 1 hammer) but it will take effects for 60 turns. It will contribute 31K.

With Corporation, I'll use Duckweed's result. As the executives will cost 9K hammer, the 3 corporation has to reach 31K + 54K+ 9K=94K in 40 turns, which is equivalent to 78 bpt/turn*city.

Therefore, we can find that the advantage of SP is mainly determined by the snowball effects on the city numbers. In this model, if the bpt of 3 corporation can reach 100 bpt/turn*city on average, corporation can shorten the game length by 9 turns.

However, if the GE is kept until turn 200, will it also delay the victory by 9 turns? Probably not. For Louis, let's get a forge as early as possible.

soundjata · Sep 17, 2012

Mining INc:

I agree that it is difficult to breed an engineer if we don't rush the stone wonders.

In the case we fail to get the GE in time for mining inc., could it be an option to incorporate something else? (with a GM or GS)

I have zero experience with corps...

Spoiler :

Bebekija · Sep 17, 2012

- Early game plan : given the pa type, we should expect to see many good coastal sites, so GLH + REX is once again a good course of action, ans so are the Oracle and the HG.

- Oracle : Industrious leaders usually favor MC because 1/2 cost forges is huge. OTOH, if we can manage Currency, it also suits well to the REXing especially if we grab the GLH. Other standard choices are Col and Monarchy which seem inferior to me in this setup, or Civil Service, which requires favorable conditions in order to pull it off.
Overall, since we probably have only one neighbour, so not many foreign TRs, I'd probably favor MC over Currency, and that's without taking happiness into account.

- Generation of GE : usually, an early Forge + either HG or Mids is enough to get one in time. But Mids usually conflicts with GLH, because GLH requires REXing while you can't build as many settlers if you go for the Mids. So HG is the best candidate. The pop and health bonus is probably only worth it with stone, but the GE points are worth going for it even without the resource IMO.
The backup plan is hiring 4 engi from the IW, but for this to be reasonably efficient you have to plan it quite a while ago, because not only do you have to build the wonder (ouch...) but then you want the city to be able to pop a GP soon, so you must not have generated too much GPs empire-wise before, or else you would have to deal with a mixed GP pool.

- Opening : I started working on a test game, but then I realized that there is not much to test until the save is live. With so little map knowledge, the only sensible test would go Worker first for the corn while researching BW, and then ?? So I guess we'll stick to general strategy discussions until the end of the week, won't we?

Bebekija · Sep 17, 2012

soundjata said:
Mining INc:

I agree that it is difficult to breed an engineer if we don't rush the stone wonders.

In the case we fail to get the GE in time for mining inc., could it be an option to incorporate something else? (with a GM or GS)

Well the main problem is that if we bother to go for the Corporation + FM route, the corps have to benefit us greatly to justify their cost. And Mining and Sushi are the only ones (along with Cereal Mills on earth-based maps) that fulfill this condition.

Another problem is that other corporations either conflict with Sushi (Cereal Mills and Standard Ethanol) or require an Engineer as well (Creative Constructions) or require an optional/late tech (Civilized Jewelers) or are already on our list for a 3rd corp HQ (Aluminium Co)
^^
(A note on this last point, Civ. Jewelers may also be a good choice as the last corp, we can incorporate it in a soon-to -be Legendary city and benefit from the culture from both it and Sushi. It means no Mining ever in this city though...)

Duckweed · Sep 17, 2012

sossos said:
I think I have to setup a model to compare SP and Corporation, since GE is really a problem if there is no stone around.

Assumption 1: Communism and Corporation can be achieved at the same timeframe. (Actually Communism can be obtained earlier.)

Assumption 2: 20 turns are needed to spread the corporation to all cities. (20 can be a variant)

If you have AL before corporations, then less than 15 turns is usually enough to spread corporations to an empire of 40+ cities, this was how we did in our SGOTM12.

Assumption 3: the upper limit of city# are 60 for SP + no vassal. With corporation, only 30 cities can be built because of the colony expense.

The major factor that limit the number of cities is the domination limit, it also depends on how many islands and how many continents in this map. For instance, if there are 2 continents, then the land tiles in our own continent are almost close to the domination limit, you can take at most ~10 cities from other continent. The colonial cost of 5 cities are trivial, even at 10 cities, the gain from corporations easily surpass. Check this http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10049967&postcount=5, I had average of more than 10 cities in 3 other different continents and could still produce 13.6K bpt without deficit.

Assumption 4: From the communism to FT1, 60 turns are needed. (60 can be a variant)

With SP, the city number can be increased to 60 with a snowball effect. If the additional 30 cities are conquered in 20 turns after communism, most of them can contribute at least 30 turns. Supposing each city can contribute 60 bpt (food/hammer can be converted to beaker), the additional 30 cities can contribute 54K by the end of game.
Comparatively, the SP effect on the first 30 cities is only 525 bpt/turn compared with FM.(estimated as 4 food+ 5 commerce+ 1 hammer) but it will take effects for 60 turns. It will contribute 31K.

With Corporation, I'll use Duckweed's result. As the executives will cost 9K hammer, the 3 corporation has to reach 31K + 54K+ 9K=94K in 40 turns, which is equivalent to 78 bpt/turn*city.

Therefore, we can find that the advantage of SP is mainly determined by the snowball effects on the city numbers. In this model, if the bpt of 3 corporation can reach 100 bpt/turn*city on average, corporation can shorten the game length by 9 turns.

However, if the GE is kept until turn 200, will it also delay the victory by 9 turns? Probably not. For Louis, let's get a forge as early as possible.

You could try to play either SGOTM12 or BOTM37 with the SP route and make a comparison (BOTM37 would be better since vassal is ON, which favors SP), I think this would be the best way to convince yourself. Honestly, if you could achieve SSV in less than 20 turns of my date, that would be a surprise for me to reevaluate the hidden value of SP that I have not realized.

BTW, Modern tanks versus LBs and pikemans was fun.

Bebekija said:
- Oracle : Industrious leaders usually favor MC because 1/2 cost forges is huge. OTOH, if we can manage Currency, it also suits well to the REXing especially if we grab the GLH. Other standard choices are Col and Monarchy which seem inferior to me in this setup, or Civil Service, which requires favorable conditions in order to pull it off.
Overall, since we probably have only one neighbour, so not many foreign TRs, I'd probably favor MC over Currency, and that's without taking happiness into account.

We'll see what fits best when we see more surrounding tiles. MC is more likely the choice as it synchronize with the trait. Without Phi trait or strong commercial resources nearby, Currency is too risky.

- Generation of GE : usually, an early Forge + either HG or Mids is enough to get one in time. But Mids usually conflicts with GLH, because GLH requires REXing while you can't build as many settlers if you go for the Mids. So HG is the best candidate. The pop and health bonus is probably only worth it with stone, but the GE points are worth going for it even without the resource IMO.
The backup plan is hiring 4 engi from the IW, but for this to be reasonably efficient you have to plan it quite a while ago, because not only do you have to build the wonder (ouch...) but then you want the city to be able to pop a GP soon, so you must not have generated too much GPs empire-wise before, or else you would have to deal with a mixed GP pool.

Yes, this is the safe plan and I probably prefer it this time. Another way is like what shakabrade mentioned, wonder spam in capital and relies on RNG, that's what we did in SGOTM 11 and 12.

- Opening : I started working on a test game, but then I realized that there is not much to test until the save is live. With so little map knowledge, the only sensible test would go Worker first for the corn while researching BW, and then ?? So I guess we'll stick to general strategy discussions until the end of the week, won't we?

Agree, let's see what the warrior can reveal 1st. I would be :mad:

if there are seafood resources 2 tiles away from coast.

sossos · Sep 17, 2012

Quack Duckweed,

I think my result is to support your idea, not to contradict. Both of us agree that the upper limit of city numbers is the main reason why SP cannot win the space race over corporation. Some of the parameters can be adjusted but the model can show us the major reasons behind.

In normal deity games, if I have only 10~15 cities when I got SP, there's much room before the upper limit of city numbers is reached. And the game is often ended with fast dom/conq. This may be the reason why SP is still popular in those situations.

Is there an achive of SGOTM 12 or BOTM 37 before turn 200? Maybe I can test the model and verify the turn# when the corporation surpasses SP.

kossin · Sep 17, 2012

shakabrade said:
Numbers say 1 of 5 people are Chinese.
I think kossin is Chinese too so you are not alone.
Could be I am only Caucasian here since soundjata[/B is French and if I judge French from sport representations...

I'm quite (French) Canadian, which explains the french.

Duckweed said:

You could try to play either SGOTM12 or BOTM37 with the SP route and make a comparison (BOTM37 would be better since vassal is ON, which favors SP), I think this would be the best way to convince yourself. Honestly, if you could achieve SSV in less than 20 turns of my date, that would be a surprise for me to reevaluate the hidden value of SP that I have not realized. BTW, Modern tanks versus LBs and pikemans was fun.

Agree, let's see what the warrior can reveal 1st. I would be if there are seafood resources 2 tiles away from coast.

Click to expand...

While AL certainly helps to spread Corporations, I think there's possibly a lesson to be learned from SGOTM12. Sushi is SO powerful that it can be even better to get it before AL. We were ahead of OSS (in terms of cities and GLH) but they got Sushi ~15 turns before us and caught up quite a bit. (Ignoring the fact that we raised science slider too late, they still made up time).

Obviously, it's impossible to accurately put numbers to it right now but for some small whipping cities, Sushi = 1 whip every 2 turns without losing pop.

We'll see...

sossos said:

Quack Duckweed,

I think my result is to support your idea, not to contradict. Both of us agree that the upper limit of city numbers is the main reason why SP cannot win the space race over corporation. Some of the parameters can be adjusted but the model can show us the major reasons behind.

In normal deity games, if I have only 10~15 cities when I got SP, there's much room before the upper limit of city numbers is reached. And the game is often ended with fast dom/conq. This may be the reason why SP is still popular in those situations.

Is there an achive of SGOTM 12 or BOTM 37 before turn 200? Maybe I can test the model and verify the turn# when the corporation surpasses SP.

Click to expand...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/...date=-4000&enddate=1946&submit=Refresh#format

This could potentially be useful to "estimate" the paths:
-Sushi>AL>Mining
-Sushi>Mining>AL
-AL>Sushi>Mining
-etc

Obviously, the strength of corporations is map-dependent but AL is a clear value: 75% more hammers at 400/1.5 H cost. (assuming OR+Forge)

Duckweed · Sep 17, 2012

sossos said:
Quack Duckweed,

I think my result is to support your idea, not to contradict. Both of us agree that the upper limit of city numbers is the main reason why SP cannot win the space race over corporation. Some of the parameters can be adjusted but the model can show us the major reasons behind.

In normal deity games, if I have only 10~15 cities when I got SP, there's much room before the upper limit of city numbers is reached. And the game is often ended with fast dom/conq. This may be the reason why SP is still popular in those situations.

Is there an achive of SGOTM 12 or BOTM 37 before turn 200? Maybe I can test the model and verify the turn# when the corporation surpasses SP.

It seemed to me that you emphasized that SP supported more cities than Corporations in your previous post, that's why I showed you the example of BOTM37 that Colonial expense was rather small compared with corporation income. The value of corporations is a rather complicated issue if you have never used before, we were also not very clear in SGOTM12.

I don't have any intermediate save of BOTM37, you could try to play from 4000BC save, it was a fun map, Christmas edition from DS.

SGOTM12 saves as kossin already gave, but I guess that you won't let the corporation route take the benefit of setting without VASSALs.

kossin said:
While AL certainly helps to spread Corporations, I think there's possibly a lesson to be learned from SGOTM12. Sushi is SO powerful that it can be even better to get it before AL. We were ahead of OSS (in terms of cities and GLH) but they got Sushi ~15 turns before us and caught up quite a bit. (Ignoring the fact that we raised science slider too late, they still made up time).

Obviously, it's impossible to accurately put numbers to it right now but for some small whipping cities, Sushi = 1 whip every 2 turns without losing pop.

We'll see...

There are a lot of reasons why OSS caught up in SGOTM12. Earlier Sushi was either a negative reason or slightly positive reason in my estimation.

OSS part:

1. Better war (~5 turns). They conquered 1 more AI before focusing on SS and left the last AI in SS traveling time.

2. Better spy economy (~5 turns). While we gained more cities in early and middle stage through REXing supported by GLH, they setup the EP to steal from the AI, especially the GLH owner

3. Worker stealing (~3 turns).

4. Better GP production which led to 2 more golden ages (~3 turns)

5. Better organization of SS tech path and build (~2 turns)

Only reason #3 occurred in the early and middle stage, that's why we felt about a dozen of turns leading at that time.

PD part

1. GLH (~10 turns)

2. Better empire management (~5 turns)

OSS got Sushi earlier but spread slower than us, they might obtain ~10 turns of Sushi benefit finally but lose the hammer bonus from AL and Mine corporation (effect doubled with AL) on the other hand. Therefore, it's hard to say Sushi 1st was better even in such a map where Sushi resources was more abundant than normal. In general, AL>Mine/Sushi was the better way, probably still better even in SGOTM12. (Remember that liberalism AL was already a big advantage.

)

shakabrade · Sep 17, 2012

@kossin

irrelevant for SGOTM:

Spoiler :

SGOTM 16 related:

Since I have no doubts corporations are better, and have no doubts where warrior should go, I will ask this: settler 1W or settler 1NW?

I think 1W is better since it gets us at least 3 more riverside tiles, it has an opportunity to get one more FP if there is one 1W of one we are sure of (flood plains are way more often in groups than not).
Also, we can work on FP before border pop, which probably means 3 more commerce (if none of forests reachable by settler 1NW contain Calendar luxuries).

Regarding argument that we lose 1 :food:

with 1W, I can say that 1NW loses grassland forest tile 1SE of current settler position in capital's BFC, and also, we have a high chance that we can get one more FP in BFC by going 1W.

Regarding way of getting an engineer for Mining Inc. I still don't have formed opinion. Maybe we can set up GP+IW city? Pretty unorthodox, isn't it?

But then it wouldn't really produce much :hammers:

and is therefore just a bad joke.

I wouldn't want us start producing those Great People too late since we want Golden Ages. And that would be the case with getting GE from IW. However, if we were disciplined and always have an engineer assigned since forge in IW city is built, we could time our IW with Taj Mahal and easily produce GE, even if it happens to be our 4th or even 5th generated great person.

Ok, checked tech tree a bit. Steel can be researched long before Railroad (11 techs before in most extreme case). That means we will have plenty of time to generate that GE from IW in time, if we don't happen to get it before from forge with some RNG luck. It seems GE isn't going to be a problem afterall.

kossin · Sep 17, 2012

@Duckweed

Another problem in our game was starting our GAs too late, they were still going while SS was moving.

The dilemma here is in reaching FT1 the fastest. Which path achieves this is not clear to me. For instance in SGOTM12, our empire was clearly better set up but we overkilled it by a long shot. The extra hammers from Mining+AL allow for a faster spread once they are set up, no question. But extra food earlier = more research earlier via Representation.

To find the best solution, we'd need a computerized model, which is pretty hard, and not worth it IMO

I still think AL first is better, by feeling, but the alternative being true would not be a huge surprise either.

@shakabrade
SGOTM-irrelevant

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Sep 17, 2012

shakabrade said:
SGOTM 16 related:

Since I have no doubts corporations are better, and have no doubts where warrior should go, I will ask this: settler 1W or settler 1NW?

My answer is "I don't know"

, we might know better from map gazing after we access the game, or I need to rethink if the warrior find some unwelcome seafood.

kossin said:
@Duckweed

Another problem in our game was starting our GAs too late, they were still going while SS was moving.

I covered this in OSS part "better GP production->more GAs" since I only listed the good parts of each team. Except the spy economy, we have little room to improve since AIs were too slow in our game, We could improve in all other correspondent parts. For instance, if we realize the fallout issue, I would prioritized Engineering and kill all AIs before 1600AD, we actually did better in early war. We could enhance the science slider earlier to gain a couple turn from reason #5.

The dilemma here is in reaching FT1 the fastest. Which path achieves this is not clear to me. For instance in SGOTM12, our empire was clearly better set up but we overkilled it by a long shot. The extra hammers from Mining+AL allow for a faster spread once they are set up, no question. But extra food earlier = more research earlier via Representation.

To find the best solution, we'd need a computerized model, which is pretty hard, and not worth it IMO

I still think AL first is better, by feeling, but the alternative being true would not be a huge surprise either.
[/SPOILER]

In fact, whether to go AL or corporation techs partial depends on AIs research, if we could not liberalism AL, then researching AL 1st become less appealing. Partially depends on the corporation resources, if Mine or Sushi resources are really abundant in this game, then corporation 1st could be better.

SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

hole in cheese

Praise Vivec!

hole in cheese

Deity

Deity

King

King

Deity

Praise Vivec!

King

hole in cheese

King

King

Deity

King

Deity

Deity

Praise Vivec!

Deity

Deity

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