SGOTM 16 - Plastic Ducks

[shakabrade]

Not 4 cottage but oasis turns. Also anger is not an issue. It has more happiness than it needs and anger will vanish before reaching size 5. You are focused only on cost while not counting gains.

I am losing some food no more than 6 but gain 4 in other city, lose some commerce but also gain. Also, I don't produce nothing. I produce WB and then other WB reveals more islands or is used for net or more exploration if it fails. Please, try to analyze it more fair cause I know you can.

Edit: Problem obviously arises mostly from comparing number values to something you cannot put a number on.



Clam city can flip barb city when we get IW so your statement before is false (religion, Library maybe reduce that time significantly). But it is true it'd be better that city is an island city. More commerce gained.

 

[Duckweed]

I did study your save carefully, point your mouse to the NW cottage and your will see 3 turns less, plus the cottage ready on T97 which I had 3rd citizen to work but you only have 2. Tours also has quite a few things to whip, such as lib, monasteries and missionaries as I already mentioned, so the angers do matter since they require more warrior, which costs 15H + 1g/t.

My last question, can you provide some data which shows your way yields more than mine? Such as, how can the clam city gives more than an earlier granary in Mars? What you need is to counter my listed reasons in previous post such as #591, 596, believe me, I'm easily convinced with math number or the test save.

You might notice that I mentioned about whether a settler for Mars or a worker from Paris in kossin's set. That means I even considered a 4th worker much earlier as I always consider the yield of whole empire, but not a single city. If you gain 2F1H in one city but 5F from another city, then the latter is clearly better. This is another way to explain the idea.

4th worker over clam settler. This city becomes a drain financially and we have a lot of unimproved tiles that will gain more to us.

 

[shakabrade]

Well, most of the reasons I have are non-numberish.
We are both going on a blind date here. We don't know the land we are about the settle, thus my priority is getting to know that land and opportunities and reducing barb galley threat (because WB spawn busts). If you think only numbers matter, we can just grow our cities and that'd provide more commerce. What I want to do has possibility to positively influence our bpt if we find something good (has back up if we don't) and also, we might get future benefit from gems with industrial forges when our cities get bigger in some 30-40 turns and for some war, when happiness becomes an issue. I can't put an exact number to that but I strongly feel it is positive.

And it is fair to say from my part it has some price. Don't forget there is possibility there is nothing of worth near barb island too. Edit: And my WB is making sure we reduce the chance to be left without any city spot.

(Sorry for too much editing, but I am also amusing my child who is not in a mood exactly.)

 

[Duckweed]

Check my post #596, especially reason #5, if there's nothing good from chariot scouting, then the galley can still carry the settler to NW without any delay, is this move satisfy you? About gem city, there is much more chance that Brennus is going to capture it before we get IW. I do have nearly 0% hope on this city.

 

[kossin]

Any possibility of splitting up the set to a forking point? With slightly more scouting info, we can make decisions more easily.

 

[Duckweed]

T97 is where the galley in the middle position where it can go either south or north, that's why I suggested this stop.

I don't mind that if shakabrade want to make an earlier stop.

 

[kossin]

I'll run a few tests to see if I can be any help.

 

[shakabrade]

Damn, I did lose too much in Tours.

I have managed to find out a compromise solution:

Tours doesn't produce WB. First WB comes from Orleans. Second WB (for fish), comes also from Orleans. Difference is that it goes to island city via NW island, then uses border pop in island city to net the fish right in time when island city grows.

Gains: 5 tiles (4 water) explored and some other can be fog gazed to see if there is more land on that island.

Loss: -1 food

I think this is the best solution.

 

[kossin]

That's more interesting. I ran a quick test which was ended up very similar to Duckweed's.

If the 1f loss does not impact granary completion, I think it's ok.

If the Chariot finds a better spot on island, skip the detour.

 

[shakabrade]

We can even detour NW without any food/commerce losses but we reveal 2 tiles less and galley with settler can be navigated in a manner it can still choose which way to go on T100.

 

[Duckweed]

The only case that those extra scouting is useful is that you can find 2 seafood tiles in those revealed tiles (5 more tiles?). Otherwise, any single food tile revealed by the chariot can lead our 2nd island city there.

I'm not sure how much of the shortage of 1F will cost us in the future, not sure about the possible earlier granary, but I know the possible earlier LH is 2F extra.

Edit:

Found a better micro in Paris

T95 and 96 -- Mars can borrow the shared Corn while Paris is producing a worker, which allow Mars to whip granary earlier.

 

[kossin]

Edit:

Found a better micro in Paris

T95 and 96 -- Mars can borrow the shared Corn while Paris is producing a worker, which allow Mars to whip granary earlier.

Yes, this is similar to that trick dingding had suggested in SGOTM11 in the early game

 

[Duckweed]

So there are 2 issues remaining.

1. Whether to send the 2nd WB to scout NW? My suggestion is that let's pause on T95 after moving the chariot, this 1 turn scouting might solve the issue.

2. Whether to produce a worker or settler in Paris

I have told all the reasons, not sure whether shakabrade buys now. If not, then the only way to solve it is voting. Moreover, this issue is also on T95.

Therefore, you are clear to post the PPP to T95, shakabrade.

 

[shakabrade]

So there are 2 issues remaining.

1. Whether to send the 2nd WB to scout NW? My suggestion is that let's pause on T95 after moving the chariot, this 1 turn scouting might solve the issue.

2. Whether to produce a worker or settler in Paris

I have told all the reasons, not sure whether shakabrade buys now. If not, then the only way to solve it is voting. Moreover, this issue is also on T95.

Therefore, you are clear to post the PPP to T95, shakabrade.

With new micro for Paris, I am more than convinced worker first is better. I said I wasn't clear on this somewhere before. About work boat NW, I said there is painless way of doing some exploration (until Duckweed finds something to prove me wrong).

My first PPP about to be dissected, weee! I hope more people will participate in discussions soon.

I can't promise I'll finish it tonight since my eye lids are made of lead, I swear. Very late here.

 

[shakabrade]

PPP:

T88

Orleans steals cottage from Lyons instead of working GH mine (This results in 2 more beakers, while being hammer and food neutral later, as you'll see. Doesn't compromise growth turns.)
Lyons takes Oasis and builds Warrior


T89

Galley 1S2E
Chariot 1S then 1NE

Paris: Whip settler (work corn and cottages, 2 hammers lost but 4 commerce gained because of earlier town without counting all the future modifiers to that one extra commerce)
Orleans: Whip settler (work horse instead of deer)
Lyons takes its cottage back from Orleans


T90

Maths done, switch to Currency research 0%

Chariot goes 1N2E
Galley goes to 2N of Tours

Paris: Settler done and goes 3E, build Warrior
Orleans: Settler done and goes to incense, build WB

Convert to Judaism


T91

Rheims: Worker goes to 1S ofRheims
Tours: Northern worker goes 1W-->1T in road-->stop, Southern Worker go to pig-->pasture

Settle eastern fish 4E1N, work on pig, start granary
Paris takes its corn back

Settler to galley, galley to desert island
Chariot 1NE


T92

Paris: Warrior finished, goes to Rheims, start Library
Orleans: WB finished, go to island, start WB
Tours: Granary finished, start Library WB, take and work Oasis
Worker to pig-->pasture
Rheims: Worker 1SE-->road-->stop

Chariot 1N
Galley unloads settler on desert island


T93

Rheims: Grows to 2, whip granary, Worker to pig-->pasture
Tours: (pasture finished) Worker 1E--> road
Settle island, start granary

Galley to 2S
Chariot to galley


T94

Rheims: granary done, start WB
Lyons: grab Oasis
Orleans: grows to 6, work GH mine
Tours: Worker to East, go to FP and cottage, Worker to West 1E-->cottage-->stop

Galley unloads Chariot on Sheep


T95

Explore with Chariot (movement to be discussed) and decide the rest



Still have to see how to distribute beakers to get Currency as early as possible and use library the most but didn't have any time to test.
Now, back to sleep.

Edit: Currency is researched on T101. I suggest we run 100% research whenever Orleans is size 6 and 7 since then it works most commerce with its library, then 50% research on T97 and then 100% until Currency.

Edit 2: Always check all city screens and make sure all the best tiles are worked.

 

[soundjata]

can't test before Friday so you have my go

 

[Duckweed]

PPP:

T88

Orleans steals cottage from Lyons instead of working GH mine (This results in 2 more beakers, while being hammer and food neutral later, as you'll see. Doesn't compromise growth turns.)
Lyons takes Oasis

Switch the build in Lyons to a warrior to allow flexible build later (might whip lib or a worker at size 4)

T89

Galley 1S2E
Chariot 1S then 1NE

Paris: Whip settler (work corn and cottages, 2 hammers lost but 4 commerce gained because of earlier town without counting all the future modifiers to that one extra commerce)
Orleans: Whip settler (work horse instead of deer)
Lyons takes its cottage back from Orleans


T90

Maths done, switch to Currency research 0%

Chariot goes 1N2E
Galley goes to 2N of Tours

Paris: Settler done and goes 3E, build Warrior
Orleans: Settler done and goes to incense, build WB

Convert to Judaism


T91

Rheims: Worker goes to Rheims
Tours: Northern worker goes 1W-->1T in road-->stop, Southern Worker go to pig-->pasture

Settle eastern fish, work on fish, start granary
Paris takes its corn back

Settler to galley, galley to desert island
Chariot 1NE


T92

Paris: Warrior finished, goes to Rheims, start Library
Orleans: WB finished, go to island, start WB make sure the 5th citizen on Deer, in my test game, it was on the GH mine
Tours: Granary finished, start Library, take and work Oasis
Worker to pig-->pasture
start a WB for flexible build later
Rheims: Worker 1SE-->road-->stop

Chariot 1N
Galley unloads settler on desert island


T93

Rheims: Grows to 2, work pig, Worker to pig-->pasture
Whip the granary now, if working a 3F tile does not speedup the growth by 1 turn, then the food banked will be capped at 12F while whipping immediately might save the maintenance cost.
Tourspasture finished) Worker 1E--> road
Settle island, start granary

Galley to 2S
Chariot to galley


T94

Rheims: Whip granary starts a WB
Lyons: grab oasis
Orleans: grows to 6, work GH mine
Tours: Worker to East, go to FP and cottage, Worker to West 1E-->cottage-->stop

Galley unloads Chariot on Sheep


T95

Explore with Chariot (movement to be discussed) and decide the rest



Still have to see how to distribute beakers to get Currency as early as possible and use library the most but didn't have any time to test.
Now, back to sleep.

Edit: Currency is researched on T101. I suggest we run 100% research whenever Orleans is size 6 and 7 since then it works most commerce with its library, then 50% research on T97 and then 100% until Currency.

Comments in Blue.

 

[kossin]

I'll review tonight (~12 hours from now).

 

[shakabrade]

@Duckweed

Switch the build in Lyons to a warrior to allow flexible build later (might whip lib or a worker at size 4)

Done.

Orleans: WB finished, go to island, start WB make sure the 5th citizen on Deer, in my test game, it was on the GH mine

I have it in my personal notes (on paper). Worry not.



You mean one turn of WB in Tours or all the way? Maybe we'll want to overflow some hammers from Library whip into monastery? We can put 14T in Library and still have 2 pop whip available.

T93

Rheims: Grows to 2, work pig, Worker to pig-->pasture
Whip the granary now, if working a 3F tile does not speedup the growth by 1 turn, then the food banked will be capped at 12F while whipping immediately might save the maintenance cost.

No, T94 is better. Did tests.
If you whip on T93 you grow to size 3 on T99 and have 19 food in food bar.
If you whip on T94 you grow to size 3 on T99 and have 20 food in food bar.
Also, whipping earlier didn't have any impact on maintenance.

 

[Duckweed]

You mean one turn of WB in Tours or all the way? Maybe we'll want to overflow some hammers from Library whip into monastery? We can put 14T in Library and still have 2 pop whip available.

WB all way, we need it in any case either scouting south or net for 2nd city, but not sure what we want to whip in Tours. Therefore, if not Lib, then the OF is not enough to finish WB in the fastest way.

No, T94 is better. Did tests.
If you whip on T93 you grow to size 3 on T99 and have 19 food in food bar.
If you whip on T94 you grow to size 3 on T99 and have 20 food in food bar.
Also, whipping earlier didn't have any impact on maintenance.

IIRC, whip on T93 and T94, both end with 12F at size 2, not sure how did you get above number, moreover, the whip anger fades 1 turn earlier.
Edit: I see, I let the citizen stay on Fish tile so that the food bar is the same. Agree with T94 whip.