SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
How does this sound??
Trystero
Deity
Looks good so far. Let's see what Revent thinks. I am happy not to war during my turnset. I find wars in SGOTM nerve-wracking, and the map for SGOTM15 was designed by some lunatic who stuck Tokugawas everywhere.
I think the obvious first pause point will be when the GP in Paris is born. A lot depends on whether that is a GP or GS.
Parthenon-Good to go from me
SuggestionPerhaps we could add an extra scientist to GP farm to get our GS at higher odds (>60%) which would also allow time for us to dilute our priest points in Paris since extra points are needed and scientists points accumulate three times more than priests.
Once again, I can offer the safety of the route of CoL at 0% until our great person which will dictate our tech choice and the accumulation of 0% gold over 6 turns will give us enough gold to research at 100% for two or three turns be it maths/calendar or optics.
Dealing with AI's:
Yes, we should try our best to stop Rams from being killed, within reason (ie not give all of our techs).
Brennus may end up running away in tech because of all that land (however, we could use that against him by trying to balance research and espionage). However, this will be a bit tricky because, well Brennus likes to run the slider!
We don't need the shared war bonus since we will get Brennus to friendly.
Granary->Forge is pretty good and anything else would be sub optimal I think. Half price forges pay off after I believe we invest 240 hammers (which will happen for every city I believe, either via whipping or actual hammers). Plus 2 happiness makes it a necessity in every building and means monarchy is not necessary for a while.
Regarding your points:
1-we will have that by democracy. internet is a waste of hammers even if for denial.
2-we will do that once we kill brennus. AI's cities grow faster than ours anyway (they need less food) and they can develop cottages for us to make our research skyrocket
3-bad bad idea. Ideally, we want to do an intercontinental invasion and vassal almost all of the AI to help them direct our research.
edit: a million x posts
a pretty slow response from me
SuggestionPerhaps we could add an extra scientist to GP farm to get our GS at higher odds (>60%) which would also allow time for us to dilute our priest points in Paris since extra points are needed and scientists points accumulate three times more than priests.
Once again, I can offer the safety of the route of CoL at 0% until our great person which will dictate our tech choice and the accumulation of 0% gold over 6 turns will give us enough gold to research at 100% for two or three turns be it maths/calendar or optics.
Dealing with AI's:
Yes, we should try our best to stop Rams from being killed, within reason (ie not give all of our techs).
Brennus may end up running away in tech because of all that land (however, we could use that against him by trying to balance research and espionage). However, this will be a bit tricky because, well Brennus likes to run the slider!
We don't need the shared war bonus since we will get Brennus to friendly.
Granary->Forge is pretty good and anything else would be sub optimal I think. Half price forges pay off after I believe we invest 240 hammers (which will happen for every city I believe, either via whipping or actual hammers). Plus 2 happiness makes it a necessity in every building and means monarchy is not necessary for a while.
Regarding your points:
1-we will have that by democracy. internet is a waste of hammers even if for denial.
2-we will do that once we kill brennus. AI's cities grow faster than ours anyway (they need less food) and they can develop cottages for us to make our research skyrocket
3-bad bad idea. Ideally, we want to do an intercontinental invasion and vassal almost all of the AI to help them direct our research.
edit: a million x posts
a pretty slow response from me
Also, may I request to be skipped until the 7th of Nov.
I'll make my contributions here and there in between, but can't commit anything in that time period.
oooh edit: I vote against construction. The potential snowball effect of Taoism is far greater than getting eng a couple of turns earlier.
edit: as for Moai, I vote for...Zhou.
I'll make my contributions here and there in between, but can't commit anything in that time period.
oooh edit: I vote against construction. The potential snowball effect of Taoism is far greater than getting eng a couple of turns earlier.
edit: as for Moai, I vote for...Zhou.
I fixed East Fish, wouldn't bother about failure gold before basic infra.
No can do. Paris pops its GP in 7 turns, GP Farm is 1 turn behind. We really need to make Paris go first, because once GP Farm has NE, it will really start cranking gpp's.
Because GP Farm needs to get another 100 gpp more than Paris, the percentages will increase significantly, up towards 80% for the GS.
Unfortunately its a fact of life that we will get low odds on the first GS.
Paris should be working tiles once it pops the GP, it will have at least 2 cottages waiting for citizens.
Partially disagree, the plan does involve 6 turns of 0% research first up, before we go 100%, so we can stretch this to 7 turns 0%.
Anything we put beakers into can potentially be wasted,
Machinery if we bulb it,
CoL if we can trade for it. (I really don't think we will need to invest 1 beaker into CoL.)
Maths if we can trade for it.
Though Maths does seem to me the least worst 'potential waste', as it does have other benefits. Also, if Brennus or Ramesses does decide to trade Maths, they will discount the beakers we have already invested.
Not much we can do other than hope. The alternatives are just to unappealing.
If Brennus does take all of Ramesses' cities, he is quite likely to have a major economy problem for some time, so I doubt he will tech much at all, let alone faster than us.
Agreed, we are already on the way to accumulating about +17 (+8 religion, +4 civics, +2 resources, +2 open borders, +1 peace), and this is without any tech trading.
No can do. Paris pops its GP in 7 turns, GP Farm is 1 turn behind. We really need to make Paris go first, because once GP Farm has NE, it will really start cranking gpp's.
Because GP Farm needs to get another 100 gpp more than Paris, the percentages will increase significantly, up towards 80% for the GS.
Unfortunately its a fact of life that we will get low odds on the first GS.
Paris should be working tiles once it pops the GP, it will have at least 2 cottages waiting for citizens.
Partially disagree, the plan does involve 6 turns of 0% research first up, before we go 100%, so we can stretch this to 7 turns 0%.
Anything we put beakers into can potentially be wasted,
Machinery if we bulb it,
CoL if we can trade for it. (I really don't think we will need to invest 1 beaker into CoL.)
Maths if we can trade for it.
Though Maths does seem to me the least worst 'potential waste', as it does have other benefits. Also, if Brennus or Ramesses does decide to trade Maths, they will discount the beakers we have already invested.
Not much we can do other than hope. The alternatives are just to unappealing.
If Brennus does take all of Ramesses' cities, he is quite likely to have a major economy problem for some time, so I doubt he will tech much at all, let alone faster than us.
Agreed, we are already on the way to accumulating about +17 (+8 religion, +4 civics, +2 resources, +2 open borders, +1 peace), and this is without any tech trading.
I am happy not to war during my turnset. I find wars in SGOTM nerve-wracking, and the map for SGOTM15 was designed by some lunatic who stuck Tokugawas everywhere.
Yeah I know, what a bastard
Yes, this is a pivotal moment.
Trystero
Deity
So if I understand correctly, I am going to run research at 0% for 6 (or 7) turns while researching Mathematics, then switch tech to Machinery when I move the slider up to 100%. And this will coincide with the Great Person popping in Paris, so we see if we get a GS to bulb Machinery? (Edit: and if we get a GS and bulb Machinery, we will tech Optics at 100% on the slider.)
Edit:
OK - I've updated the roster.
Edit:
OK - I've updated the roster.
Research Maths at 0% for 7 turns, keep checking for a Maths trade.
If we get a GS, go 100% research on Maths/Calendar, then bulb Machinery. Change back to 0% for Optics until we have enough gold to research it at 100%.
If we get a a Prophet, report back here so we can argue for a few pages.
A screenshot of Humbaba might also be nice 
should be available in 2 turns
should be available in 2 turns
Trystero
Deity
Sorry I hadn't noticed you'd updated your edits of the plan. I am not going to play before tomorrow at the earliest. I will post a final revised PPP before I play so we can make sure I have everything straight. (Edit: and that will be tomorrow as well since I'm too tired tonight to think clearly).
Sounds good. I'm now heading out the door to go see 'Dredd' (its my birthday today, but for Xcal's sake, I will say I am 27 )
)
Trystero
Deity
Happy Birthday, Neil!
My way, we get GP farm GP in 6, Paris in 13 followed by GP farm in roughly 20 turns. That doesn't seem too bad.
The only beakers are wasted if we bulb machinery. If we just trade for the techs, the AI consider how many beakers have been invested already. Having said that, I am not against teching maths; plus, we should build MoM so I'm cool with that.
Speaking of, what if the map maker did something horrible such as block us off from the other continent via ice going straight down preventing us from crossing?
If Ramesses is going to die, perhaps we could gift/sell HIM some of our techs so that he could bribe Brennus to peace? AI-AI deals are so much fairer after all
(So perhaps gifts first to get him to cautious maybe and then trade to see if we can trade a tech out of him?) If he's going to die anyway, then it doesn't matter that we give him our techs Oh and happy birthday neil!!!! You should watch the original Dredd, so much better
Edit: Commerce is working an unimproved floodplain, can we take away the cottaged floodplain from production and have commerce work it and instead run an Eng in Prod.
Xcalibrator
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
(its my birthday today, but for Xcal's sake, I will say I am 27
Appreciate that. Can't wait to see what's in Humbabaland and what kind of GP you pop.
That's quite unlikely. It would make some of the special conditions much much harder and wouldn't result in a fair game.Speaking of, what if the map maker did something horrible such as block us off from the other continent via ice going straight down preventing us from crossing?
Oh, and I recall reading that the map hasn't been modified much.
edit:
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
Just back from a few days away. I like the Math -> Calendar tech plan. I kept wanting to post replies and then had to hold off because there were three more pages of posts!
If we are going to build Moai on the three city island, Zhou is the place to do it. That said, I want to argue for the two fish tundra site. Production can whip it two workboats, overflowing into the Parthenon, to get it up and running fast, and with two fish, it can whip its way to Moai very quickly. Is there a reason we haven't included a settler to two-fish-tundra in the PPP?
If we are going to build Moai on the three city island, Zhou is the place to do it. That said, I want to argue for the two fish tundra site. Production can whip it two workboats, overflowing into the Parthenon, to get it up and running fast, and with two fish, it can whip its way to Moai very quickly. Is there a reason we haven't included a settler to two-fish-tundra in the PPP?
Trystero
Deity
OK - here is a revised plan. Let me know if I missed anything. I will be doing father-type things most of the afternoon, and won't play until I get a green from the major stakeholders.
PPP: t123-???
Technologies:
Tech path: Math for 7 turns at 0% (check for math trades every turn). Pause when GP is born in Paris
If a GS: Bulb Machinery, and Math > Calendar at 100%, move slider to 0% for Optics until we have enough gold accumulated to research at 100%
If a GPro: Pause for more team discussion.
Dealing with AIs
Sell Alphabet to Ramesses this turn.
(How do we respond if Brennus asks us to join the war? I would agree to the demand, but run a "phony" war. That is, send no troops)
City placement and builds:
Paris - Finish Buddhist temple (2 turns) > Harbor > Market > Caravel (as soon as Optics is done)
GP Farm - Whip Forge in 2 turns, overflow into NE > then Harbor
Production - Whip settler for Iron Wheat > Parthenon > Caravel
Commerce - Finish Market (12 turns) > Buddhist missionary, due in ~18 turns > Buddhist Monastery?
Clams - Forge > Harbor > Lighthouse > Temple
Barb City - Whip Forge for max overflow > Buddhist missionary, due in 2 turns with whip overflow > Whip Harbor > Temple
East Fish - Whip Forge next turn start Harbor > Lighthouse > Library > Temple
Sugar Clams - Change to WB and WHIP at pop 2 > Granary > Forge > Harbor
Zhou - Granary > Forge > Moai
Iron Clams - Granary > Forge > Lighthouse > Harbor
Iron Wheat will be settled on the riverside tile where Chariot 10 is currently positioned. Build order Granary > Forge > Library
General micro:
-2 workers at Clams finish cottage and then move to Iron Wheat: go via the last non-cottaged FP in Commerce, road to wheat, (wheat won't be in cutural borders for another 10 turns)
-workers at Commerce finish FP cottaging, road the tile they are on cottage river-side plains tiles
-workers in Paris cottage grassland tiles and river-side plains tiles, send one to Barb City, cottage riverside plains, cottage FP's when possible
-workers on Barb island cottage Zhou (no chops until Math), improve iron, mine hillls pre-mine PHF worker is already standing on, make sure workers always road/cancel while moving.
What to do with spies if we are not stealing tech? Send one to Tolosa for possible Treasury steal, and scout with the other? One could be stationed in one of our cities for counter-espionage after Ramesses is eliminated.
Civics and religion
Ignore requests from Ramasses to switch religions.
War
see above
Bigger picture:
Get to Optics quickly and get caravels out exploring.
Build NE and Parthenon to get GS out faster. Bulb to Astronomy and pursue Liberalism.
Avoid capturing Ramesses cities now are as they are too far away.
Pause points:
Great Person born in Paris
Met new AIs
AI DOW
PPP: t123-???
Technologies:
Tech path: Math for 7 turns at 0% (check for math trades every turn). Pause when GP is born in Paris
If a GS: Bulb Machinery, and Math > Calendar at 100%, move slider to 0% for Optics until we have enough gold accumulated to research at 100%
If a GPro: Pause for more team discussion.
Dealing with AIs
Sell Alphabet to Ramesses this turn.
(How do we respond if Brennus asks us to join the war? I would agree to the demand, but run a "phony" war. That is, send no troops)
City placement and builds:
Paris - Finish Buddhist temple (2 turns) > Harbor > Market > Caravel (as soon as Optics is done)
GP Farm - Whip Forge in 2 turns, overflow into NE > then Harbor
Production - Whip settler for Iron Wheat > Parthenon > Caravel
Commerce - Finish Market (12 turns) > Buddhist missionary, due in ~18 turns > Buddhist Monastery?
Clams - Forge > Harbor > Lighthouse > Temple
Barb City - Whip Forge for max overflow > Buddhist missionary, due in 2 turns with whip overflow > Whip Harbor > Temple
East Fish - Whip Forge next turn start Harbor > Lighthouse > Library > Temple
Sugar Clams - Change to WB and WHIP at pop 2 > Granary > Forge > Harbor
Zhou - Granary > Forge > Moai
Iron Clams - Granary > Forge > Lighthouse > Harbor
Iron Wheat will be settled on the riverside tile where Chariot 10 is currently positioned. Build order Granary > Forge > Library
General micro:
-2 workers at Clams finish cottage and then move to Iron Wheat: go via the last non-cottaged FP in Commerce, road to wheat, (wheat won't be in cutural borders for another 10 turns)
-workers at Commerce finish FP cottaging, road the tile they are on cottage river-side plains tiles
-workers in Paris cottage grassland tiles and river-side plains tiles, send one to Barb City, cottage riverside plains, cottage FP's when possible
-workers on Barb island cottage Zhou (no chops until Math), improve iron, mine hillls pre-mine PHF worker is already standing on, make sure workers always road/cancel while moving.
What to do with spies if we are not stealing tech? Send one to Tolosa for possible Treasury steal, and scout with the other? One could be stationed in one of our cities for counter-espionage after Ramesses is eliminated.
Civics and religion
Ignore requests from Ramasses to switch religions.
War
see above
Bigger picture:
Get to Optics quickly and get caravels out exploring.
Build NE and Parthenon to get GS out faster. Bulb to Astronomy and pursue Liberalism.
Avoid capturing Ramesses cities now are as they are too far away.
Pause points:
Great Person born in Paris
Met new AIs
AI DOW
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I am strongly in favor of Revent's proposal to generate the next GP from GP Farm, rather than Paris.
If we hire a second scientist in GP Farm, then we get the next Great Person on turn 128 at 25.87% Merchant / 74.13% Scientist. If we generate the Great Person from Paris, we get it on turn 129 at 44.66% Prophet / 55.34% Scientist. Getting the GP one turn faster and increasing the odds of a scientist by 20% sounds very good to me.
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