SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

No rush. I think we only have 50 turns to play with the snowball effect. Enough time.

Actually we need some spy at Sury's land, so we can accurately split the mainforce. Or we can move 2 turns and send 1 unit to the NE city to check?

Is there any justification why Qin has not DOWed yet? If his target is Mansa, he has met the power criteria. Or he won't DOW if Mansa's not accessible? Anyway, our castle will be finished soon.
 
No rush. I think we only have 50 turns to play with the snowball effect. Enough time.

Actually we need some spy at Sury's land, so we can accurately split the mainforce. Or we can move 2 turns and send 1 unit to the NE city to check?

Is there any justification why Qin has not DOWed yet? If his target is Mansa, he has met the power criteria. Or he won't DOW if Mansa's not accessible? Anyway, our castle will be finished soon.

Yes, I'm planning on sending 2-3 spies down to the Sury front line this turnset. Will be switching espionage onto him so hopefully we will gain vision on his cities. I'll try to take a peek with our +1 vision chariot as I move towards the next city with the Iron to the north.
We have enough on Qin to steal Guilds already. Can always add a bit more later if Qin techs something juicy like Banking or Gunpowder next.
Now that the decision not to steal Civil Service has been made, we have some wiggle room.

Qin should have DoW'd us by now if we were the target I think. (Although he has a big stack in that city near Gold City!)
He is most likely targeting Mansa and won't stop until Mansa is dead or Qin can walk a unit onto a Mansa city and get the war started.
 
Not sure if it is already in the plan but are you building horsearchers the turn before the steal? The hammers might turn into hammers for the knights and allow you to whip them a turn earlier? Hmm, I guess this might not work if you steal the tech.

Interesting, a test game suggests that a horse archer whipped the turn you steal guilds turns into a knight build. If the whipped hammers do not finish the knight no unit is produced. However if you whip the horse archer so that there will be 90+ hammers in the queue you get a knight a turn earlier. (the turn after you steal guilds)
 
So the whole steal civil service and theology! and bulb paper and get maps from Churchill and Peter idea flopped I guess?

could also get some spare gold trading maps around too...

5 great scientists are not coming our way... Might as well make immediate use of them...
(is astronomy-gunpowder-chemistry really still possible? would 1 GS be enough for all of gunpowder? would 2 GS be enough for all of chemistry)
3 hammer workshops under caste aren't that bad... if it comes to it

We still could bulb education and tech liberalism for astronomy if it turns out the maps reveal we need astronomy for some reason...
 
Not sure if it is already in the plan but are you building horsearchers the turn before the steal? The hammers might turn into hammers for the knights and allow you to whip them a turn earlier? Hmm, I guess this might not work if you steal the tech.

Interesting, a test game suggests that a horse archer whipped the turn you steal guilds turns into a knight build. If the whipped hammers do not finish the knight no unit is produced. However if you whip the horse archer so that there will be 90+ hammers in the queue you get a knight a turn earlier. (the turn after you steal guilds)

:lol:

The turn of wealth might still be best. Gives time to grow to 6 pop before Knight whip I think. Brain melted Gnite!
 
So the whole steal civil service and trade for paper and get maps from Churchill and Peter idea flopped I guess?

could also get some spare gold trading maps around too...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=140952
Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy


Paper means no Astro or Chemistry.

Although, our bulbs are up to 1700:science: each now. Bulb a lot of Education and Printing Press, maps and Macemen too :hmm:
 
I'd prefer the Med3 Chariot remain a Chariot. It would thusly never be the stack defender in an AI counter attack.

I don't like switching Espionage to Suryavarman II for city visibility, since will take too long and we have other means of city vision - Spies and chariot +1 visibility.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Will whip Market with max overflow and built wealth to store overflow
When will you whip Market at Timbuktu? I hope it can be whipped only at the highest pop. The return rate of pop growth is so high that it exceeds that of the market. The treb can still be trained here with overflow from Market/Grocery/Banks. Don't worry too much about the deficit. We need to always keep 10% deficit now and it can be increased by 5% every 7~8 turns.

Hopefully Hindu will have spread naturally being so close to Timbuktu

Will you prepare a missionary also?(I saw you've put some missionaries in your plan) If it’s spreaded naturally, the missionary can be sent to Qin for city revolt.
Will forge, UB, barracks be built in Kansas? It all depends on ROI I think. I.e. Whether we can get it returned before victory.

T131 Switch to Suryavarmen (We have enough to steal Guilds and I want vision on Suryavarmen for his final extermination or for a castle revolt if necessary)
We need 500+ EP to have city visibility. It's too costly. We only need spies or a chariot with vision.

In Marble Pigs, will stack specialists in this order Merchants first->Spy->Scientists->Engineer (Will try to whip a Grocer so we can work 4 merchants. Probably won't end up working Scientist or Engineeer)
The economy is expected to potentially be a huge issue later.
Whip Grocer if needed to work more Merchants

There are two pillars of the power, unit#/quality and sustaining economics. If we got too much gold but we don’t have enough hammers to train units, the gold will be a waste in the end. This is not to say that we shouldn’t build grocer/bank/failed gold, but to remind that we need to be cautious about any investment on gold. We need to build these infra at cities with the best ROI and we need to invest only when we we really need it. 1 market+1grocery+1bank=6 trebs. The deficit is very common in conquest games. We can always keep 10% deficit now and the ratio can be increased by 5% every 7~8 turns. We need to whip units early and save the economics later. In another word, an earlier unit has much higher value than a later one, just as an earlier city. With earlier unit, you can attack earlier to face less defenders and to conquer cities with less whips(=high pop).

1 city earlier.

Continue building fail gold projects until a galley can be spared to connect it to Fur City
Build HE if possible so we can get the failed gold sooner

For fur city, there’re no enough cottages yet. We can whip market only if we really need the happiness, otherwise, units first.

Djenne1pop whip spy to put in Trojan City (I like having 4 of them )2 pop Hindu Missionary for RajaSlow build another Hindu missionary with overflow for Hade's Hammer if we capture it or for a Qin castle city to halve revolt costTreb/Knight

1pop whip is a waste of happiness for this city. Can we 2 pop whip missionary and overflow to spy?

Good luck Kaity.:)
 
So the whole steal civil service and theology! and bulb paper and get maps from Churchill and Peter idea flopped I guess?

could also get some spare gold trading maps around too...

5 great scientists are not coming our way... Might as well make immediate use of them...
(is astronomy-gunpowder-chemistry really still possible? would 1 GS be enough for all of gunpowder? would 2 GS be enough for all of chemistry)
3 hammer workshops under caste aren't that bad... if it comes to it

We still could bulb education and tech liberalism for astronomy if it turns out the maps reveal we need astronomy for some reason...

If we can transport units to England with galleons, it's not bad to bulb astronomy. We can train galley and upgrade them to galleons. Landing on England/Russia is also a critical point(to improve the critical point will improve the total throuput time), so we'd better keep GS and see what we can explore in the next few turns. We can discuss more on how to use GP in 1~2 turns

@Kaitzilla

Could you also discuss your exploration plan? I think this axe may go 1 SW and then go with rail road. I'm eager to know whether England is surrounded all by ice and whether Peter can only be attacked from ocean(mostly yes since there's no his unit around the barbarian city)
 
I'd prefer the Med3 Chariot remain a Chariot. It would thusly never be the stack defender in an AI counter attack.

I don't like switching Espionage to Suryavarman II for city visibility, since will take too long and we have other means of city vision - Spies and chariot +1 visibility.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kk, will alter the PPP
 
I'm fine with upgrading the medic chariot. I'd rather have the option to get more experience with the leadership promo. We will have more great general and like Kaitzilla said, you take chances. The risk of the medic dying is low and there are advantages.

I'm fine with Kaitzilla playing and I think we do need to take actions on the economy in this turn set.

Is it better to building the ratheus before the granary in Nuremburg?
 
When will you whip Market at Timbuktu? I hope it can be whipped only at the highest pop. The return rate of pop growth is so high that it exceeds that of the market. The treb can still be trained here with overflow from Market/Grocery/Banks. Don't worry too much about the deficit. We need to always keep 10% deficit now and it can be increased by 5% every 7~8 turns.

I've calculated that it is best to 3pop whip Market in Timbuktu in 3 turns. Putting the overflow into Grocer is the best way to maximize our gold in the long run.

I've crashed the economy a few times in fast conquest games to know that our current situation needs gold badly. :crazyeye:



Will you prepare a missionary also?(I saw you've put some missionaries in your plan) If it’s spreaded naturally, the missionary can be sent to Qin for city revolt.
Will forge, UB, barracks be built in Kansas? It all depends on ROI I think. I.e. Whether we can get it returned before victory.

The city is 3 tiles from the Holy City, so has like 20% or 25% chance of natural spread I think. I really don't think it needs a missionary.


We need 500+ EP to have city visibility. It's too costly. We only need spies or a chariot with vision.

KK, I'll keep it on Qin then.


There are two pillars of the power, unit#/quality and sustaining economics. If we got too much gold but we don’t have enough hammers to train units, the gold will be a waste in the end. This is not to say that we shouldn’t build grocer/bank/failed gold, but to remind that we need to be cautious about any investment on gold. We need to build these infra at cities with the best ROI and we need to invest only when we we really need it. 1 market+1grocery+1bank=6 trebs. The deficit is very common in conquest games. We can always keep 10% deficit now and the ratio can be increased by 5% every 7~8 turns. We need to whip units early and save the economics later. In another word, an earlier unit has much higher value than a later one, just as an earlier city. With earlier unit, you can attack earlier to face less defenders and to conquer cities with less whips(=high pop).

1 city earlier.

Markets are only being built in cities with cottages. Timbuktu, Marble Pigs, and Fur City.
Grocers are only being built in special cases. Timbuktu and Marble Pigs which will try to pop a Great Merchant. Every other city will be whipping units until they bleed.


Build HE if possible so we can get the failed gold sooner

For fur city, there’re no enough cottages yet. We can whip market only if we really need the happiness, otherwise, units first.


Fur City is an interesting case. It can 2 pop whip a Knight every other turn with it's massive food surplus. Best to get the Market built now for more happy cap and to ease into cottage growth later.


1pop whip is a waste of happiness for this city. Can we 2 pop whip missionary and overflow to spy?

Good luck Kaity.:)


Djenne has so much happy cap left and wiggle room, a 1 pop whip is acceptable to get a vital scout. It will 2 pop whip stuff and overflow after that.
In the age of Castles, can never have too many spies.

Thanks :) Need Luck.
 
I'm fine with upgrading the medic chariot. I'd rather have the option to get more experience with the leadership promo. We will have more great general and like Kaitzilla said, you take chances. The risk of the medic dying is low and there are advantages.

I'm fine with Kaitzilla playing and I think we do need to take actions on the economy in this turn set.

Is it better to building the ratheus before the granary in Nuremburg?

Ah, a voice of aggressiveness. :D

Yes, with a combat Landsnecht to protect the medic Knight, there isn't much that can scratch it unless there is a large counter attack with collateral damage involved. A Crossbow could step to the front of the line, but Knights tend to beat crossbows. All our other Knights will be combat II thanks to Vassalage, so it might be ok as long as we make sure never to give super medic another Combat promo later.

Nuremburg(Gold City) is a bit strange. It has no food, so what is best to build there? Without Civil Service or a Lighthouse, it has nothing to grow on sadly.
 
If we can transport units to England with galleons, it's not bad to bulb astronomy. We can train galley and upgrade them to galleons. Landing on England/Russia is also a critical point(to improve the critical point will improve the total throuput time), so we'd better keep GS and see what we can explore in the next few turns. We can discuss more on how to use GP in 1~2 turns

@Kaitzilla

Could you also discuss your exploration plan? I think this axe may go 1 SW and then go with rail road. I'm eager to know whether England is surrounded all by ice and whether Peter can only be attacked from ocean(mostly yes since there's no his unit around the barbarian city)

Ya, will explore all the way west using the railroad. I too wonder whether Peter or Churchill can be reached be land.

I suspect Peter is by Galley only and Churchill is by Galleon or teleport/paratroopers.

We have seen none of their units wandering the barb lands.

Qin and Toku know Churchill. Only we have met Peter.
 
I thought Numerberg was the Notre Dame city, it has pigs, but perhaps we sacrifices its growth to build ratheus instead of a granary first. Gold is more important than even a granary I thought.
 
I thought Numerberg was the Notre Dame city, it has pigs, but perhaps we sacrifices its growth to build ratheus instead of a granary first. Gold is more important than even a granary I thought.

Oh ya, I got Nuremberg mixed up!

I was thinking of 1 pop whipping Notre Dame complete since it will be so close to finishing with the chops.

The overflow will allow us to 1 pop whip Granary too.


Then we can rocket up in pop cause we have enough workers to build a lot of farms and whip Rathaus too.
 
Oh ya, I got Nuremberg mixed up!

I was thinking of 1 pop whipping Notre Dame complete since it will be so close to finishing with the chops.

The overflow will allow us to 1 pop whip Granary too.


Then we can rocket up in pop cause we have enough workers to build a lot of farms and whip Rathaus too.

okay, look to see if there is any fail gold we can trade the AI for in case one of them is building Notre Dame.
 
I insist on leaving our Chariot C1Med3 as a Chariot to protect it from AI SoDs. We can have 20+ defenders stronger than a Knight C1Med3, but if or after they are all damaged, our Knight C1Med3 will be the stack defender and there will be a significant that we will lose it. The AI will often use 1-2 Catapults first and the colleral damage will lower their strength below our Med3, assuming it is missed by colleral damage.

I also believe that Leadership is an almost useless promotion. It is usually taken as the 26 XP promotion and to get two more promotions we need the 37 XP promotion and the 50 XP promotion. It is more efficient to skip the Leadership promotion and simply take the 26 XP and 37 XP as the next two promotions (50 - 25 = 25 / 2 = 12 vs 37 - 25 = 12 ). The advantage is getting a useful promotion at 26 XP almost immediately.

In my opinion, the only promotions worth getting after C1Med3 is Woodsman III which mounted units can't get anyway. Otherwise, putting more experience into the C1Med3 unit takes away many more promotions from units with about 5 XP.

We don't want to lose our C1Med3 unit in combat trying to get more promotions or give it combat, shock, or formation which may ensure that it is the strongest stack defender. Upgrading it from a Chariot to a Knight could be a fatal mistake.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I don't know this is a conquest game and we are imperialistic. The leadership promo makes generating more GG faster. It is not a useless promo and we would only use the GG medic for clean up duty (99.9% combats).

I think we will get plenty of Great Generals and it really something that helps us. I don't think is such a dramatic decision.
 
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