Trystero
Deity
They are usually saved as custom maps so we can't tell what the exact map type is from the settings.
SGOTM 17 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Yes, we wont know what the map is, but I think kcd mentioned its dimensions didn't he.
Exploration is going to be a little different in this game, as we have both a scout and an archer, I'm happy for the archer to follow the coast, and the scout to go inland for now.
One thing to consider is that the first barb I saw after the mandatory animal phase was an axe.
edit: yes he did: 52x32. That can include:
- Fastasy Realm
- Inland Sea
- Lakes
- Mirror
- Oasis
Might be others, as the guide I was reading was for Vanilla. The fact that we can see the edge means I think an modified Inland Sea is a good guess.
Exploration is going to be a little different in this game, as we have both a scout and an archer, I'm happy for the archer to follow the coast, and the scout to go inland for now.
One thing to consider is that the first barb I saw after the mandatory animal phase was an axe.
edit: yes he did: 52x32. That can include:
- Fastasy Realm
- Inland Sea
- Lakes
- Mirror
- Oasis
Might be others, as the guide I was reading was for Vanilla. The fact that we can see the edge means I think an modified Inland Sea is a good guess.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
A reminder of our traits:
We should be safe with archers as our main city defenders.
We can build settlers fast.
We should be safe with archers as our main city defenders.
We can build settlers fast.
Trystero
Deity
I wonder if it would be best to send the scout 1NW and then 1NE? This would reveal tiles north of the lake, in case there is anything interesting up there (edit: without moving the worker. If we settle 2W1S, the worker could then move to farm the bananas). (Actually we should see what we can see after moving the scout just 1NW at first). The jungle tiles to the north near the edge of the map would suggest we could not immediately settle too far north. The archer could then go 1SW and follow the coast.
If we decide on settling with the crabs, either SIP or 2W1S, the first action of the worker should probably be to chop the forest. If we don't chop the WB, we will have to whip it.
If we settle 2W1S, then we can't settle until t1, hence we could not farm until t1 either.
The only scenario where moving the worker to scout is bad is if we decide to SIP and farm.
Regardless, the start is so sucky we want as much info on t0 as possible I think.
If we settle 2W1S, then we can't settle until t1, hence we could not farm until t1 either.
The only scenario where moving the worker to scout is bad is if we decide to SIP and farm.
Regardless, the start is so sucky we want as much info on t0 as possible I think.
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
I am strongly in favor of having the worker chop, not farm. I can't really imagine a scenario where farm first is the best option.
Assuming there are sites available, how fast do we want cities 2,3,4 on this type of start?
Assuming there are sites available, how fast do we want cities 2,3,4 on this type of start?
Trystero
Deity
Oops, I missed that the worker could move 1NW+1SW and still be able to farm the west bananas on t1. My bad. So yes, scout 2NW
That will probably depend on what sorts of resources are available. All my practice games had better starts. I'll try things out on the test save tonight.
This might be a situation where we cannot really start testing until we have a bit of map knowledge.
One thing I learnt last game is that we got cities 3 & 4 faster than the ducks, but they got to ~7 or 8 much faster than us, by investing in granaries for more efficient whipping of settlers.
One thing I learnt last game is that we got cities 3 & 4 faster than the ducks, but they got to ~7 or 8 much faster than us, by investing in granaries for more efficient whipping of settlers.
SteelHorse
Deity
We know this will be a war game! So what is our goal for the first 50 turns, 100 turns?
Are we trying to get cities settled, units produced, cripple a neighbor (assuming we find one), etc. and then build a tactical plan around the strategic goal
of a conquest victory. First, what is crucial for a quick conquest game? Then lets figure out what techs we want and what would make a good capital and how we want to manage first contact, etc.
I think we started last game assuming it would be a Space/Culture victory combo and figured out half way through it would be Diplo/Dom. Ducks set right out at the beginning to achieve a diplo/dom strategy. We know we will have some warring to do, we know we have a high food/low hammer start. Are those two incompatible? Can we make it work or will only a high hammer Cap suffice?
I am not against searching for more hammers for cap or stealing workers or going Maths for forest chop or GLH. But these all seem to be tactical choices without having a strategy in mind. The closest came from neil - "Maces, Trebs, and CBs and eventually Galleons". If we agree, lets map a plan that gets us those the quickest and rapidly build an army.
Are we trying to get cities settled, units produced, cripple a neighbor (assuming we find one), etc. and then build a tactical plan around the strategic goal
of a conquest victory. First, what is crucial for a quick conquest game? Then lets figure out what techs we want and what would make a good capital and how we want to manage first contact, etc.
I think we started last game assuming it would be a Space/Culture victory combo and figured out half way through it would be Diplo/Dom. Ducks set right out at the beginning to achieve a diplo/dom strategy. We know we will have some warring to do, we know we have a high food/low hammer start. Are those two incompatible? Can we make it work or will only a high hammer Cap suffice?
I am not against searching for more hammers for cap or stealing workers or going Maths for forest chop or GLH. But these all seem to be tactical choices without having a strategy in mind. The closest came from neil - "Maces, Trebs, and CBs and eventually Galleons". If we agree, lets map a plan that gets us those the quickest and rapidly build an army.
^ we can't even assume that strategy without more knowledge of the map.
If we are isolated by ocean, then we need astronomy asap. If we share a small island with 3 Tokugawas, then we can't wait for maces. ETC
We need to optimize our initial growth to set a foundation for whatever path we eventually take. This time we really should move our capital.
So, after initial exploration, lets settle where it can grow fastest. A 3 food settler pump might be the right approach.
neil, how early did axes appear? how many turns before we need defensive units?
If we are isolated by ocean, then we need astronomy asap. If we share a small island with 3 Tokugawas, then we can't wait for maces. ETC
We need to optimize our initial growth to set a foundation for whatever path we eventually take. This time we really should move our capital.
Spoiler :
neil, how early did axes appear? how many turns before we need defensive units?
Trystero
Deity
The problem is we don't have enough information yet to know how to get to maces/trebs/CBs the quickest. We don't know who our neighbors are, how close they are, where the strategic resources we can already see are, what the map is like, etc.
Maybe the best course of action is to take things more slowly than we usually do in the opening turns, assess the situation, and plan for both our immediate needs and long term goals.
edit: x-post with Deckhand, who said essentially the same thing.
Trystero
Deity
Regarding our early research: One thing I wasn't aware of is that we don't have to immediately select a technology to start researching. I read in the PD SGOTM16 thread that you can delay this for the first 5 turns. The beakers accumulate and are put into whichever tech you decide on. If you wait longer than turn 5 they are randomly dumped into one of the available techs.
I think we might benefit from that approach in this game.
edit: I tested this myself in the test save. I settled on t1 and did not select a tech to research. On turn 6, 60 beakers were dumped into Meditation.
I think we might benefit from that approach in this game.
edit: I tested this myself in the test save. I settled on t1 and did not select a tech to research. On turn 6, 60 beakers were dumped into Meditation.
^^ Agree, we will have to take it slow on this game for the first turns. As you guys have said, what our initial goals are will depend on what the situation we find ourselves in.
We do have some very clear early goals though:
- explore
- setup a decent capital & start expanding (we will found at least 2-3 cities, almost no matter what)
- research a useful tech first (by 4 turns, we should know what tech we want, so delaying the choice is smart)
re: barbarians, found this from that inimitable code-diver: DanF. As we all start with BW, I think it is not totally unreasonable to assume the barbs do to!
We do have some very clear early goals though:
- explore
- setup a decent capital & start expanding (we will found at least 2-3 cities, almost no matter what)
- research a useful tech first (by 4 turns, we should know what tech we want, so delaying the choice is smart)
re: barbarians, found this from that inimitable code-diver: DanF. As we all start with BW, I think it is not totally unreasonable to assume the barbs do to!
Barb Animals start appearing after game turn 5 (hard coded, independent of game speed). As mentioned earlier the game stops spawning them if both of the following two conditions are met:
- The average number of (non-barb) cities per player must be >= 1.5.
.- A certain number of game turns must have elapsed (depending on difficulty [iBarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed] and game speed [iBarbPercent], marathon is special with 400%).
So in a quick deity game animals are usually only created in just 1 IBT (5->6).
When the era of barb animals is over, the existing creatures are not eradicated in 1 major extinction event. Instead, the game kills off 1 animal per turn until they are all gone and will insert regular barb units (Warriors, Archers, ...) as they are "needed" during the next IBT (can be > 1 unit/turn!, ALL required units are created immediately).
ChrisShaffer
Board gamer
So no earlier than turn 20, right?
You don't need to assume that.
Its stated in the game description: barbs start with the same techs as the AI civs (all Ancient era techs minus the 3 religion-granting techs).
Trystero
Deity
This game is at Immortal, so turn 15.
There must also be an average of 1.5 cities per player, but at immortal and with a starting worker, it won't take the AI long to settle a second city.
edit: and thanks kcd.... I really need to actually read the whole page!!
edit: and thanks kcd.... I really need to actually read the whole page!!
Trystero
Deity
The saves will be live in < 24 hours:
When the save goes live, Chris is UP! If we agree on the initial moves, Chris can move the scout, archer, and worker so we can spend the weekend debating where to settle.
We still need a green light for the initial unit moves before we do anything, however. Let's take this slow and do it right.
As stated in your team threads and at the top of this one, I recommend that you SUBSCRIBE to this thread, then you will be notified if I make any announcements - like this one!
The SGOTM Progress Page will display the teams and start file links for this game in about 18.5 hours from the timestamp of this post.
Please make sure that you are all aware of the rules, particularly new players.
- Do not visit other team threads
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Enjoy your games, and please be nice to each other
When the save goes live, Chris is UP! If we agree on the initial moves, Chris can move the scout, archer, and worker so we can spend the weekend debating where to settle.
We still need a green light for the initial unit moves before we do anything, however. Let's take this slow and do it right.
Trystero
Deity
One more thing: It would help those of us who can't look at the save at work, if we could post screenshots of settings, demographics, etc.
Revent: How good are you at reading demo screens from Classical starts?
Revent: How good are you at reading demo screens from Classical starts?
