If the two of you have looked at the save and seen the food distribution around Beshbalik and Karakorum and still feel the same, please outline specifics on how we get the libraries and when we will get them to convince me.
SGOTM 18 - Unusual Suspects
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
This part of the PPP needs to be revised in any case. I meant to remove the Monument from Old Sarai but forgot before posting.
Beshbalik really needs the border pop.
Karakorum has deer and mines.
Washington and Fish City need to build missionaries, but have other priorities now.
Old Sarai:Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Beshbalik: Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Karakorum: Granary, Library
Beshbalik really needs the border pop.
Karakorum has deer and mines.
Washington and Fish City need to build missionaries, but have other priorities now.
Old Sarai:
Beshbalik: Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Karakorum: Granary, Library
SteelHorse
Deity
With Besh, it looks like we could probably do 2 chops into Lib then a 1 pop whip in 3 turns. The lib would get the border pop quicker than the monument and would outlive the monument and could be a Uni city. The Treb comes out a couple of turns later than in the monument case.
On Kark, we can do 2 pop whip, I like the DH proposal.
SteelHorse
Deity
Is Members Only an Island? Is there one city that we need to worry about or more down there?
Not opening the save now, but IIRC Besh doesn't have any forests in the BFC. should I chop outside of it?
Yes, I am certain it is a one city island.
btw, it has Moai now(but won't we own it).
Wouldn't it be more valuable to save the forests for the university or more importantly the National Epic?
I agree, a monument is not needed in Karakorum. I missed the deer in the first city ring.
I don't like trading CoL to Shaka for 80g for the reason below:
The whipping plan for FC looks like happiness hell. I don't believe there is a test game; does anyone have a spreadsheet on FC? I suggested the three pop whip to get rid of the three unhappy faces. I can't project where we will be with all the whipping, this why a rely on the test game. In the absence of a test game, I feel we could be over whipping. Maybe we should whip the treb and slow build the settler. Actually whipping a market after on turn in Fish City is a good option. With all those FP cottages, I see the same benefit as a market in Washington, as well this nets us one happiness with fur and future happiness when the ivory comes online.
For workers, don't chop any forests outside our cultural borders as they net fewer hammers than those inside our cultural borders.
The whipping plan for FC looks like happiness hell. I don't believe there is a test game; does anyone have a spreadsheet on FC? I suggested the three pop whip to get rid of the three unhappy faces. I can't project where we will be with all the whipping, this why a rely on the test game. In the absence of a test game, I feel we could be over whipping. Maybe we should whip the treb and slow build the settler. Actually whipping a market after on turn in Fish City is a good option. With all those FP cottages, I see the same benefit as a market in Washington, as well this nets us one happiness with fur and future happiness when the ivory comes online.
For workers, don't chop any forests outside our cultural borders as they net fewer hammers than those inside our cultural borders.
note, in work - I will checked above for other changes and let you know I'm done here
I like Shulec market idea for FC, we will lose one whipping unhappiness in two turns and market will give us one; with no immediate need for stone, we don't need to whip the settler
but from Pollina:
and no missionaries in FC; it has hammers invested in galley and treb (for previously planned 2 pop whip)
from aster
---------------------------
22days remaining
PPP T137-
Summary
Continue conquering Mongolian cities while preparing for assault on Member’sOnly
Remember to Check at start of Every Turn
Diplomatic situation
Trades available
Espionage
Citizen Assignments
For Mongol, Zulu, Viking units
Objectives:- This turn set: Conquer Elephant City, Turfan, New Sarai
Next set (next player): conquer Ning-hsia and Member’sOnly
Research:
Education at 100%, Then Printing Press at 0% (note, we will see what Mansa is teching before we finish Edu)
Infiltrate with Great Spy
Steal Nationalism
Espionage on Goldmember (we can run one turn to get the 300 we need)
Diplo:
- Sell CoL to Dr Evil for 80g (?)
- Accept any beg/demand from Gandhi, Joao, Mansa.
- trade these 3 any resources (but not marble) we can spare
City builds:
Washington: Market (2 pop whip), Taj Mahal
Fish City: market (2 pop whip), missionary, trebuchet(2 pop whip), galley (hammers already invested), missionary, settler (3 pop whip) [assume 3 galleys and 2 triremes are enough to land our forces in waves], missionaries
Pig City: Treb, mace
Paradise Gate: Treb, maces
Ironside: Treb, mace
Old Sarai:Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Beshbalik: Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Karakorum: Granary, Library
Units:
Northern army: takes NE 'phant city, then Turfan, then takes rails to M'O
Southern army: form up, then take Old Sarai and Ning-hsia.
Workers: keep busy, chop infrastructure and units, develop tiles, repair roads … (don't chop outside borders)
Triremes: stay on fish
Spy in TH: steal Nationalism in two turns
Spy5: take rails along east edge to confirm no GK units there
Then need spy at M’O and in TH
Spy in Portugal: go to Joao/Goldmember battle area to see what is going on
Great Spy: infiltrate Trojan Horse before we run next spy mission
next Great General - become medic (build a chariot for this)
Also
Clean up the reminders SW of Washington. Get rid of anything GK.
Does anyone know the turn for the Gandhi note "demand 60 gold from Ga"?
Get rid of the Joao trade stuff with the exception of the cow beg.
Pause conditions:
- Joao or Mansa opens borders with Dr. Evil
- GK and Mansa open borders
- New tempting tech, gold and map trades available
- Approaching enemy stack (that I can’t handle)
- Anything else not previously discussed
Future sessions stuff
trade for Optics with Joao?
Where to build National Epic?
University Cities:
filler cities: 3W of Fish City (first)and 2W of stone
Build new city 3 N of Swinger’s Pad and move our capital there[/QUOTE]
I like Shulec market idea for FC, we will lose one whipping unhappiness in two turns and market will give us one; with no immediate need for stone, we don't need to whip the settler
but from Pollina:
and we really need to build some missionaries; below I have the market
from aster
OK, I just inserted two missionaries into FC. It will be a while before we need the galley and settler.
---------------------------
22days remaining
PPP T137-
Summary
Continue conquering Mongolian cities while preparing for assault on Member’sOnly
Remember to Check at start of Every Turn
Diplomatic situation
Trades available
Espionage
Citizen Assignments
For Mongol, Zulu, Viking units
Objectives:- This turn set: Conquer Elephant City, Turfan, New Sarai
Next set (next player): conquer Ning-hsia and Member’sOnly
Research:
Education at 100%, Then Printing Press at 0% (note, we will see what Mansa is teching before we finish Edu)
Infiltrate with Great Spy
Steal Nationalism
Espionage on Goldmember (we can run one turn to get the 300 we need)
Diplo:
- Accept any beg/demand from Gandhi, Joao, Mansa.
- trade these 3 any resources (but not marble) we can spare
City builds:
Washington: Market (2 pop whip), Taj Mahal
Fish City: market (2 pop whip), missionary, trebuchet
Pig City: Treb, mace
Paradise Gate: Treb, maces
Ironside: Treb, mace
Old Sarai:
Beshbalik: Monument (1 pop whip), treb (whip)
Karakorum: Granary, Library
Units:
Northern army: takes NE 'phant city, then Turfan, then takes rails to M'O
Southern army: form up, then take Old Sarai and Ning-hsia.
Workers: keep busy, chop infrastructure and units, develop tiles, repair roads … (don't chop outside borders)
Triremes: stay on fish
Spy in TH: steal Nationalism in two turns
Spy5: take rails along east edge to confirm no GK units there
Then need spy at M’O and in TH
Spy in Portugal: go to Joao/Goldmember battle area to see what is going on
Great Spy: infiltrate Trojan Horse before we run next spy mission
next Great General - become medic (build a chariot for this)
Also
Clean up the reminders SW of Washington. Get rid of anything GK.
Does anyone know the turn for the Gandhi note "demand 60 gold from Ga"?
Get rid of the Joao trade stuff with the exception of the cow beg.
Pause conditions:
- GK and Mansa open borders
- New tempting tech, gold and map trades available
- Approaching enemy stack (that I can’t handle)
- Anything else not previously discussed
Future sessions stuff
trade for Optics with Joao?
Where to build National Epic?
University Cities:
filler cities: 3W of Fish City (first)and 2W of stone
Build new city 3 N of Swinger’s Pad and move our capital there[/QUOTE]
Should I tech Compass (instead of PP) - to open up the optics trade?
No to compass. We should be able to pick that up eventually. That is too many beakers for little value.
SteelHorse
Deity
Was thinking the same thing on FC. The market seems like a very good idea there.
Forgot that we don't have Compass. This poses a potential problem. If someone like Gandhi gets Compass he could trade Eng for Optics and we lose the option to trade it to Joao. This is a critical tech that we don't want to self research and we don't have a lot of tech on Joao. Hmmm. Perhaps Compass after Educ.
I agree on not trading with Shaka. We want him self-teching. The weaker the better when we turn on him.
Good news on Members Only being an island. This should make it straight-forward to take out.
SteelHorse
Deity
If we lose the option to trade Eng to Joao, because someone else does. That is a lost tech.
There are a finite number of hammers that can come from forests. The is a tremendous source of hammers that can come from population. We can more efficiently convert population to hammers for smaller builds like a monument, library and university. Whipping the national epic is not good because you can't immediately convert population into GPP. I would rather save the forests for NE.
Yes, we can get the food faster chopping the library. It's a trade-off. I am not sure if your suggestion involves chopping outside the BFC. If it does, I really dislike it.
Yes, we can get the food faster chopping the library. It's a trade-off. I am not sure if your suggestion involves chopping outside the BFC. If it does, I really dislike it.
OK, i see the point about 1 pop whipping a monument after 1 turn. It is the easiest & by far the quickest way to get them the border pop that will be very advantageous. It does seem a waste though, as we could instead build missionaries to get them the culture, or go straight for the lib that they will need to build anyway for NE/uni's, but on reflection 1 pop whipping the monument is sensible.
Not trading CoL to Evil for the sole reason that it speeds up him getting CS seems a little silly.
It depends on the cash we can get, and I accept that the current 80g he has isn't enough.
If getting his cash means an extra 1-2 turns at 100% research, we should do it. Evil is backwards, and he will invariably be self teching for most of the game once we get the everyone vs Evil holy war going again.
I am all for trading Engineering to Joao for Optics. Obviously we need Compass first, but we could maybe steal this from GK. Before discounts & GS infiltration it will cost 479 esp (in New Sarai), so I imagine it will only cost ~200 esp to steal. 1 turn of 100% espionage on GK should give us enough. To research it ourselves is 3 turns 100% research.
I am in Hong Kong right now, and returning to Oz in another few hours. I will be available to play after Deckhand
Not trading CoL to Evil for the sole reason that it speeds up him getting CS seems a little silly.
It depends on the cash we can get, and I accept that the current 80g he has isn't enough.
If getting his cash means an extra 1-2 turns at 100% research, we should do it. Evil is backwards, and he will invariably be self teching for most of the game once we get the everyone vs Evil holy war going again.
I am all for trading Engineering to Joao for Optics. Obviously we need Compass first, but we could maybe steal this from GK. Before discounts & GS infiltration it will cost 479 esp (in New Sarai), so I imagine it will only cost ~200 esp to steal. 1 turn of 100% espionage on GK should give us enough. To research it ourselves is 3 turns 100% research.
I am in Hong Kong right now, and returning to Oz in another few hours. I will be available to play after Deckhand
I wouldn't trade CoL to Evil for anything less than 150 gold.
Joao won't give us Optics unless he is at friendly. Not sure when that will happen. Do we expect to get the resource bonus soon? Will it be enough to get him to friendly? Teching or stealing Compass only to find out he won't trade it would be quite a waste.
Joao won't give us Optics unless he is at friendly. Not sure when that will happen. Do we expect to get the resource bonus soon? Will it be enough to get him to friendly? Teching or stealing Compass only to find out he won't trade it would be quite a waste.
Thankful Thanksgiving to All.
I think we are now agreed upon the PPP [post 1428] for the city builds (FC?).
And PP at 0%.
But not whether we should steal Compass from GK.
Anything else undecided?
I think we are now agreed upon the PPP [post 1428] for the city builds (FC?).
And PP at 0%.
But not whether we should steal Compass from GK.
Anything else undecided?
I did some analysis. And stealing compass from GK does not work well.
We first need to get a spy to New Sarai. I sure hope we have taken New Sarai sooner than the time it takes to get a spy there, then wait 5 turns. If the spy instantaneously was in New Sarai for stealing Compass, it will cost about 400 EP. We have 34 EP on GK and can generate 161 EP per turn. That will require 2.5 turns at 100% EP, as opposed to 2.5 turns at 100% science to research compass ourselves. Bad deal!
An alternative would be to steal from Joao. Evora has Confucianism, so that decreases the cost of the mission. We also have a spy right outside Evora. There is the risk of a diplo hit from the steal. I have in idea what the risk is, but suspect it is low, and I assume it is related to it being our first spy detected.
I would rather not steal from Joao because I don't think there is much value in getting optics quickly. I would rather save the first spy detection for a pre-victory vote, with less risk of a diplo hit. Plus, Pollina stated he won't trade it unless he is pleased with us.
In Evora, it will take about 184 EP. I used a simple proportion to come up with this number. In the test game, it say a tech steal in Evora is 327 EP, costing 263 EP specifically for compass. The real game says 230 to steal tech. (230*263)/327= 184.
Here are some screenshots taken from the test game:
We first need to get a spy to New Sarai. I sure hope we have taken New Sarai sooner than the time it takes to get a spy there, then wait 5 turns. If the spy instantaneously was in New Sarai for stealing Compass, it will cost about 400 EP. We have 34 EP on GK and can generate 161 EP per turn. That will require 2.5 turns at 100% EP, as opposed to 2.5 turns at 100% science to research compass ourselves. Bad deal!
An alternative would be to steal from Joao. Evora has Confucianism, so that decreases the cost of the mission. We also have a spy right outside Evora. There is the risk of a diplo hit from the steal. I have in idea what the risk is, but suspect it is low, and I assume it is related to it being our first spy detected.
I would rather not steal from Joao because I don't think there is much value in getting optics quickly. I would rather save the first spy detection for a pre-victory vote, with less risk of a diplo hit. Plus, Pollina stated he won't trade it unless he is pleased with us.
In Evora, it will take about 184 EP. I used a simple proportion to come up with this number. In the test game, it say a tech steal in Evora is 327 EP, costing 263 EP specifically for compass. The real game says 230 to steal tech. (230*263)/327= 184.
Here are some screenshots taken from the test game:
Spoiler :
Our progress is WAY TOO SLOW!
GREEN!!!!
You are the player Deckhand. Step up and do what you think is best.
GREEN!!!!
You are the player Deckhand. Step up and do what you think is best.
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