SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Doshin]

Test file attached. The and aren't exact.

 

[Duckweed]

Are you going to continue?

We could wait to see how Alex will act for a few more turns as he is cautious with Nappy. We still need some turns to be ready for producing units since most cities are still small and lacking libs, moreover RP still needs to grow to reach its full potential.

 

[Doshin]

I could play 2–3 turns tomorrow, but no more during the week.

^^^^^

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I don't think we'll be able to bribe before we steal Calendar, in any case. I'd be reluctant to give up Philosophy. The active player will just need to plan ahead with gifts.

 

[Duckweed]

Some issues after running a few turns of test game.

1. Do we want to resume research immediately once cash is enough to support 100% slider for 1 turn to minimize the chance of cash demand, or wait until more libs are online?
   
2. I'd like the next build in Sheepish to be a worker since there's only 1 worker there and no worker in capital, this also enables 3 pop whip of Market.
   
3. Do you agree to grow capital without whipping to prepare for HG since we need to work on hammer tiles to speedup?

Suggestions and thoughts are welcome while I'm still exploring.

 

[Doshin]

Some issues after running a few turns of test game.

1. Do we want to resume research immediately once cash is enough to support 100% slider for 1 turn to minimize the chance of cash demand, or wait until more libs are online?
   
   100% slider to lower our gold reserves, I think. There will always be one more Library, or one more Monastery to build, and the AI are capricious.
   
   
2. I'd like the next build in Sheepish to be a worker since there's only 1 worker there and no worker in capital, this also enables 3 pop whip of Market.
   
   Yes, good. This offers much more than a Monastery right now.
   
   
3. Do you agree to grow capital without whipping to prepare for HG since we need to work on hammer tiles to speedup?
   
   I have no problem with this.
   
   The quickest way to build the HG will be to whip the Taoist Monastery for maximum overflow and then start the Aqueduct. Whip that, and have the Monastery OF into the Aqueduct, which in turn will OF into the Hanging Gardens. We will then need to rely on hammer tiles. You could also 1–pop whip the Buddhist Monastery and station an extra Warrior. 3 whips with 30OF each would generate ~200/300H.
   
   Of course, there is no point whipping away population just to guarantee the wonder. That defeats the whole purpose of building it in the first place.

I left the 1–pop Work Boat whip available. I think this works well, and you can 2–pop whip a Lighthouse shortly after.

Unhappiness seems manageable, but I didn't play on beyond T91, so you will have a better feel for it than me.

Health is the limiting factor for growth in the capital, not happiness. The Clams will offer +1 and the Sheep will need to be connected too.

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Pig/Wheat city micro:

Pig City either needs three Workers to be set up, or we'll need to move two Workers onto a Forest after improving the Pigs:

T88: 0F Pasture 2/4
T89: 3F Pasture 4/4
T90: 9F Move two Workers to Forest
T91: 15F Chop 2/3
T92: 21F Chop 3/3
T93: 5/24F Whip Granary
T94: 11/22F

This wastes one Worker turn, but I'd imagine that it is still the best way to do it.

 

[Duckweed]

Decide that only test the game to T90/91 1st since T90 is the time that missionary will spread in Toku's city, which is going to affect the build in Const if failure,.

One more issue is that whether we want to steal Calendar in the 1st time available or wait for the full bonus.

Test save attached, no sceenshot as that takes some time.

The thing that I'm unsure is the build in Cornish Cow, wealth or BM? I don't like to invest on world wonders that rely on AIs to finish.

 

[kossin]

What if we run 100% slider, we end up with... say 20 gold and an AI demands it.

Grant or refuse?

 

[Duckweed]

I would not mind to yield to 20g demand, however I have never seen less than 50g demand.

 

[kossin]

In that case I'm fine with keeping gold reserves low.

EDITs: Trading Aesthetics around isn't so bad, it allows AIs to start on a few Wonders we can cash on through forests and whip overflow a bit earlier. [or gifting for brownie points]

 

[Doshin]

20G would be ok with me.

I'd also prefer to keep Tokugawa happy than most AI. Once he closes borders, that is it for our foreign trade routes (two barb cities or roading a long sheet of Ice/Tundra are the only alternatives).

Otherwise, if rejecting an exorbitant demand causes plotting, we have enough of a tech advantage to respond with bribes.

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The save looks good to me. I think I would pre-chop the tile 1SE of Constantinople rather than Cottage immediately. Besides the Missionary, there is the possibility we will need a Spy. Once the Forest is chopped, the Worker improving Thessalonica can help improve this (riverside) tile.

Does the success % of a Spy mission increase with time?

Regardless, although we may save by delaying the steal, we gain flexibility in terms of trades (e.g. Kublai: can we trade Calendar + Aesthetics/Literature for Construction?) and fail gold in places like Cornish Cow.

Saving an extra 5% per turn is also not that significant with early game techs, and with other bonuses (religion, mainly).

The Archer in Rice Pudding could go to Dye Hard? There is also an Archer in Sheepish that could be swapped for a Warrior.

 

[Duckweed]

EDITs: Trading Aesthetics around isn't so bad, it allows AIs to start on a few Wonders we can cash on through forests and whip overflow a bit earlier. [or gifting for brownie points]

The problem is that this is a game with aggressive AI setting and most of AIs are warmongers. Even HC owns the marble and stone, TOA and mids are still not built. HC already demand Aes from us. Remember how late we got Oracle and GLH in SGOTM12?

 

[kossin]

GLH also went early for other teams in SGOTM12. It's all bloody RNG
I figure the more options they have for wonders, the higher odds they'll start one

~~~

%of spy success is based mostly on mission (and a bit spending ratio iIrc) so odds will not change much (or at all).

 

[Duckweed]

The save looks good to me. I think I would pre-chop the tile 1SE of Constantinople rather than Cottage immediately. Besides the Missionary, there is the possibility we will need a Spy. Once the Forest is chopped, the Worker improving Thessalonica can help improve this (riverside) tile.

If we steal Calendar as soon as possible and succeed, we could chop that forest into Mom. Or do we want to complete that spy?

Does the success % of a Spy mission increase with time?

No and yes, it increases with our EPs ratio.

Regardless, although we may save by delaying the steal, we gain flexibility in terms of trades (e.g. Kublai: can we trade Calendar + Aesthetics/Literature for Construction?) and fail gold in places like Cornish Cow.

Saving an extra 5% per turn is not significant with early game techs, and with other bonuses (religion, mainly).

The Archer in Rice Pudding could go to Dye Hard? There is also an Archer in Sheepish that could be swapped for a Warrior.

I'm sending all archers toward the border cities.

If no more suggestion, I'm going to play a few turns then.

 

[Doshin]

The SoZ should probably be our fail gold wonder of choice now. Although there are a bunch of variables, the AI prioritize cheap wonders, and all the AI seem to have Ivory.

Discussion, which I haven't read for a while.

Edit: and yes, earlier chops into MoM in Constantinople add further weight to stealing ASAP (hopefully at a good %).

 

[kossin]

Give me 5 minutes to eat a bite (still haven't eaten at 21:35 o.O) and check the test at the same time. Or just go

 

[Duckweed]

^No problem.

The SoZ should probably be our fail gold wonder of choice now. Although there are a bunch of variables, the AI prioritize cheap wonders, and all the AI seem to have Ivory.

Discussion, which I haven't read for a while.

Edit: and yes, earlier chops into MoM in Constantinople add further weight to stealing ASAP (hopefully at a good %).

I prefer MoM for wonder cash, It's unlikely that other AIs could compete with us even if we delay a few turns to let some cities' OF to MoM.

 

[kossin]

Micro looks good and I appreciate the shifting of Archers towards borders.

Besides Constantinople and Capital, what cities are going to generate GP during coming Golden Age?

 

[Duckweed]

Maybe the Pig/wheat city, after running the test, I found this city could whip CH in ~12 turns.

 

[kossin]

I think extra GPP would be more important than a few extra CH turns pre-1AD.

 

[Duckweed]

Going smoothly.

Log

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 675 BC to 625 BC:

Turn 88, 675 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Thessalonica!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Case Départ will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Golden Sands has grown to size 3.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Golden Sands can hurry Library for 1⇴ with 17ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 22 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Sheepish can hurry Market for 4⇴ with 10ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 28 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Cornish Cow can hurry Library for 1⇴ with 5ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 3.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 4.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Sea Horse can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 7ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 20 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Dye Hard can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 4ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Cornish Cow are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Construction
Turn 88, 675 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Construction
Turn 88, 675 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Horse
Turn 88, 675 BC: Amsterdam has been founded.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Case Départ will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Cornish Cow are about to expand.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Construction
Turn 88, 675 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Construction
Turn 88, 675 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Horse
Turn 88, 675 BC: Case Départ will grow to size 10 on the next turn.
Turn 88, 675 BC: The borders of Cornish Cow have expanded!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Tokugawa has founded Debre Berhan in a distant land.

Turn 89, 650 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 10.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Sheepish can hurry Worker for 2⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 27 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of Sea Horse are about to expand.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Cornish Cow.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Buddhism has spread in Amsterdam.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Rice Pudding will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Constantinople will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Cornish Cow will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Thessalonica will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Sea Horse will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Homer (Great Artist) has been born in Case Départ (Trumpster)!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have discovered Music!
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 89, 650 BC: You have trained a Worker in Sheepish. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 89, 650 BC: The borders of Sea Horse have expanded!

Turn 90, 625 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Thessalonica!
Turn 90, 625 BC: Case Départ will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Rice Pudding has grown to size 8.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Rice Pudding can hurry Warrior for 1⇴ with 7ℤ overflow, 34ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 6.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Cornish Cow has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Thessalonica can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 18 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 4.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sea Horse can hurry Lighthouse for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 28 turns.
Turn 90, 625 BC: The borders of Sheepish are about to expand.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Buddhism has spread in Lalibela.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Case Départ will grow to size 11 on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sheepish will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Sea Horse will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

An interesting boat! I guess we don't need Flight, maybe galleys would be enough.

Spoiler :

Bud spread successfully, we can calculate when we could steal Calendar now. We get 56% discount now, 66% next turn.

Spoiler :

Empire overview

Spoiler :