SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Captured AA, 1st 2 Flanking HAs did not scratch scared me. Lost 3 HAs.
Machinery is also available for trade, but we need a bit more if we only want to trade away Phi. Not in a hurry in my opinion.
Needs a break to think about the worker micro and the harassment that Toku is making. If anyone is motivated to take over. You are welcome to do so.
I have played 30 turns. The war with Toku is almost over, the cost of taking Yeha now would be huge. We might be able to take DB with 6 HAs, but not sure if it whips a spear next turn.
Save uploaded.
Log
@kossin
If you take a look at the current save, you will see that he happiness issue is a serious problem in many cities. Due to WW, which adds + 2 unhappiness in large cities. SeaHorse had 2 unhappy citizens immediately on T113. Contantinople and Sheepish will have 1 unhappy citizen on T104 as well. Cornish cow, and Thessa also reached their happy cap. Aksum has 3 angry citizens due to motherhood. Hiring specialists in non GP farms and stop growing are going to hurt a lot.
Spoiler :
Machinery is also available for trade, but we need a bit more if we only want to trade away Phi. Not in a hurry in my opinion.
Spoiler :
Needs a break to think about the worker micro and the harassment that Toku is making. If anyone is motivated to take over. You are welcome to do so.
I have played 30 turns. The war with Toku is almost over, the cost of taking Yeha now would be huge. We might be able to take DB with 6 HAs, but not sure if it whips a spear next turn.Save uploaded.
Log
Spoiler :
@kossin
If you take a look at the current save, you will see that he happiness issue is a serious problem in many cities. Due to WW, which adds + 2 unhappiness in large cities. SeaHorse had 2 unhappy citizens immediately on T113. Contantinople and Sheepish will have 1 unhappy citizen on T104 as well. Cornish cow, and Thessa also reached their happy cap. Aksum has 3 angry citizens due to motherhood. Hiring specialists in non GP farms and stop growing are going to hurt a lot.
Spoiler :
Good work Duckweed.
Of course there are some
issues. You said that date of Cuirassiers was like to impact most on the final date; I agree and so I suggested we may get there a bit faster with the other way.
Forges are quite beneficial now and will reduce cost of Cuirassiers significantly when paired with Police State so that's definitely a positive for slavery at the moment.
EDIT: anyone want to bet whether TSR's score drop/inclination is related to early Oxford?
Of course there are some
issues. You said that date of Cuirassiers was like to impact most on the final date; I agree and so I suggested we may get there a bit faster with the other way. Forges are quite beneficial now and will reduce cost of Cuirassiers significantly when paired with Police State so that's definitely a positive for slavery at the moment.
EDIT: anyone want to bet whether TSR's score drop/inclination is related to early Oxford?
Great work Duckweed. 
Adapted for the capital:
@kossin: yes, probably. Do you recall WastinTime's attempt at Snaaty's SSV game? That featured a big Oxford beeline.
Adapted for the capital:
There might be a better way to do it. Untested. (And edited)
@kossin: yes, probably. Do you recall WastinTime's attempt at Snaaty's SSV game? That featured a big Oxford beeline.
One important thing that we need to gauge now is the approximate date of victory. We can expect 3 more GAs, that's 36 turns. Starting 2nd GA immediately will speed up MT research, but at the cost of less gain from a later GA. Not too much compared with a GA 10 turns later since many cities will be heavily whipped for Forges and Cuis. The major disadvantage would be GPPs loss since we can't run CS+Pacifism all time during this GA.
The tech situation in this game is comparable with last SGOTM, maybe doshin and kossin could give a rough idea with your fresh memory.
The other 2 issues I'm thinking about are
Shall we consider FP in Aksum now?
I'd like to attack DB immediately with 6 available HAs, mainly for the workers around. However, I'm not very clear whether we should keep it. With FP on Aksum and quick chop and whip a CH there, it should be beneficial in short time. We need to invest 1 missionary and some worker turns though.
The tech situation in this game is comparable with last SGOTM, maybe doshin and kossin could give a rough idea with your fresh memory.
The other 2 issues I'm thinking about are
Shall we consider FP in Aksum now?
I'd like to attack DB immediately with 6 available HAs, mainly for the workers around. However, I'm not very clear whether we should keep it. With FP on Aksum and quick chop and whip a CH there, it should be beneficial in short time. We need to invest 1 missionary and some worker turns though.
First thoughts (not much time) about game length:
We chained four Golden Ages in SGOTM 18, beginning T132, finishing T181, the game was over on T182.
At the time of the first GA, we were researching Printing Press and building Universities. ~2000
was banked, with about +250GPT income. Similar to our situation now, but weaker economy.
With Oxford, ~T144, we researched at about ~1100
per turn with ~4400G banked. That went up really fast. We had ~2300BPT before Scientific Method, on T162. I think kossin has a graph detailing research in that game.
We relied heavily on an AP/Sankore/SM combo to boost gold and beakers. Fail gold was also easier to generate, as we were Industrious.
We stole a lot of medieval techs from Mansa. All of the lower half of the tech tree. We Lib.'d Mass Media.
12 Great People were generated in total. The last one was not used (for anything useful). We got the free GArtist, GMerchant, GScientist, and GSpy.
This is a much shorter game, although Democracy is needed. The last one needed to go to Mass Media and Fascism. It also had contradictory goals which slowed things down: we needed to win a diplo vote, although everyone hated us (= mass city gifting); make a city Legendary via culture (= GSpy and Intelligence Agencies); research fast and produce enough paratroopers to wipe out a Shaka stack in 2-turns (= economy); and switch into Free Religion, the moment we researched Lib (= a specific rule of SGOTM 18).
There's a possibility that the hidden objective will mean we need a late game civic switch.
Edit: kossin was King of Estimates in that game.
We chained four Golden Ages in SGOTM 18, beginning T132, finishing T181, the game was over on T182.
At the time of the first GA, we were researching Printing Press and building Universities. ~2000
was banked, with about +250GPT income. Similar to our situation now, but weaker economy.With Oxford, ~T144, we researched at about ~1100
per turn with ~4400G banked. That went up really fast. We had ~2300BPT before Scientific Method, on T162. I think kossin has a graph detailing research in that game. We relied heavily on an AP/Sankore/SM combo to boost gold and beakers. Fail gold was also easier to generate, as we were Industrious.
We stole a lot of medieval techs from Mansa. All of the lower half of the tech tree. We Lib.'d Mass Media.
12 Great People were generated in total. The last one was not used (for anything useful). We got the free GArtist, GMerchant, GScientist, and GSpy.
This is a much shorter game, although Democracy is needed. The last one needed to go to Mass Media and Fascism. It also had contradictory goals which slowed things down: we needed to win a diplo vote, although everyone hated us (= mass city gifting); make a city Legendary via culture (= GSpy and Intelligence Agencies); research fast and produce enough paratroopers to wipe out a Shaka stack in 2-turns (= economy); and switch into Free Religion, the moment we researched Lib (= a specific rule of SGOTM 18).
There's a possibility that the hidden objective will mean we need a late game civic switch.
Edit: kossin was King of Estimates in that game.
Assuming we do go for Medicine... these are the techs and beakers left (before discount... so divide by 1.2 for base cost and remove some from trades)
If...
Lib>Medicine
44k beakers -> 36,700b base
With consecutive GAs, Oxford empire growth, Rep, Mercantilism, GM trade missions, bulbs ... I expect 1,000 beakers per turn average should be possible and so around 40 turns is reasonable.
Lib>Democracy
46.8k beakers -> 39,000b base
Using the same premise as above, maybe a few extra turns... say 42 turns.
~~~
What we need: assuming we can maintain gpt expenses at around -250/turn, then we need around 10,000 gold total, or an extra 7,400.
2 trade missions = 3,000+: need 4,400, we're really not so far anymore given city captures AND I am not even considering trades for Machinery/Engineering etc.
40 turns should be upper boundary given we can get some trades in... a great finish date would be ~T150 as I was saying earlier in the thread.
The good thing with Sushi as target Corporation is that we don't need to take as many cities so we're not limited by military conquest, only beakers.
~~~
Graph referred to by Doshin.
By the way, getting some map trades would be nice and also revealing the last few unknown tiles in the south for strategic placement of resources.
Spoiler :
If...
Lib>Medicine
44k beakers -> 36,700b base
With consecutive GAs, Oxford empire growth, Rep, Mercantilism, GM trade missions, bulbs ... I expect 1,000 beakers per turn average should be possible and so around 40 turns is reasonable.
Lib>Democracy
46.8k beakers -> 39,000b base
Using the same premise as above, maybe a few extra turns... say 42 turns.
~~~
What we need: assuming we can maintain gpt expenses at around -250/turn, then we need around 10,000 gold total, or an extra 7,400.
2 trade missions = 3,000+: need 4,400, we're really not so far anymore given city captures AND I am not even considering trades for Machinery/Engineering etc.
40 turns should be upper boundary given we can get some trades in... a great finish date would be ~T150 as I was saying earlier in the thread.
The good thing with Sushi as target Corporation is that we don't need to take as many cities so we're not limited by military conquest, only beakers.
~~~
Graph referred to by Doshin.
By the way, getting some map trades would be nice and also revealing the last few unknown tiles in the south for strategic placement of resources.
I checked some TSR SGOTM18 saves, our current beaker rate and tech situation is similar as theirs 10 turns later, Stronger core cities, (capital, HE), but less infrastructures like Forges and less number of cities.
In all, we can say that we are 5~10 turns ahead of their last game progress. The total beaker difference needed by 2 games might count for ~5 turns considering 3000bpt in the end, so 10 ~15 turns less (TSR finished on T175) to complete the tech tree sound right.
Your opinions about the following issues?
In all, we can say that we are 5~10 turns ahead of their last game progress. The total beaker difference needed by 2 games might count for ~5 turns considering 3000bpt in the end, so 10 ~15 turns less (TSR finished on T175) to complete the tech tree sound right.
Your opinions about the following issues?
soundjata
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Last game, Plastic Ducks waited too long before chaining golden ages. In the final turns, being in a golden age can be overkill.
Can't look at the save... How soon can we start our next golden age and how many turns until MT + gunpowder?
I would definitely favor going for a golden age ASAP if it can speed up the availability of cuirassiers.
After a few cycles of whipping, and while we are waiting to regrow our cities, is probably the best window for being out of golden time.
Minor question: Is there any benefit of moving our palace and at which point? (probably only valid if we plan to get out of Bureaucracy)
edit Xpost
Can't look at the save... How soon can we start our next golden age and how many turns until MT + gunpowder?
I would definitely favor going for a golden age ASAP if it can speed up the availability of cuirassiers.
After a few cycles of whipping, and while we are waiting to regrow our cities, is probably the best window for being out of golden time.
Minor question: Is there any benefit of moving our palace and at which point? (probably only valid if we plan to get out of Bureaucracy)
edit Xpost
soundjata
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I'd better vote now or never:
Golden age > now
Forbidden palace > yes
Keep the city of DB > only if we have too many workers, so probably > not.
Only some maintenance fee, which can be solved by FP instead. TGL and most cottages in current capital make it way superior than others.
soundjata
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Reacting on Kossin's suggestion of liberalizin either Democracy or Medicine,
I think I'd favor Democracy for the sake of planning the late game better (assuming we have time for planning
)
Is there a way to make the best use of a quick Democracy? Cottage everything / attack some cottage lover AI / rush buy workers?
I think I'd favor Democracy for the sake of planning the late game better (assuming we have time for planning
)Is there a way to make the best use of a quick Democracy? Cottage everything / attack some cottage lover AI / rush buy workers?
Again, I'm a bit pushed for time, but earlier GA turns could mean an earlier Oxford:
Alternatively, we could build it in four turns and work the Grassland Cottages and Plains Farm constantly (I assume).
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I am in favor of starting another GA immediately. It would be good to push towards Cuirassiers. Also, although our empire is smaller now, the gains of working Cottages in a GA (100% boost to commerce) are more substantial than working Villages or Towns (20% boost, or whatever).
For the Forbidden Palace, yes, I'm ok with Aksum building it after the Forge. Do we have enough Forests to chop this and the Taj?
DB needs a Missionary + Granary + Courthouse, to become profitable. How much will it cost until then? ~10GPT? It is also low in pop, IIRC, and only has one resource. It seemed like we would need to devote a lot of Worker turns and effort for a minimal gain. Do we have enough Workers to chop and Cottage around Aksum/Lalibela/other new cities? I could give a more definite opinion later.
T117: change GH to PH = 26 * 2.75 = 71H
T118: same = 71H
T119: change Grass Cottage to Plains Farm, PH to GH = 27 * 2.75 = 74
Current = 186H
71 + 71 + 74 = 216H
= 402/400H
May be a better way to do it.T118: same = 71H
T119: change Grass Cottage to Plains Farm, PH to GH = 27 * 2.75 = 74
Current = 186H
71 + 71 + 74 = 216H
= 402/400H
Alternatively, we could build it in four turns and work the Grassland Cottages and Plains Farm constantly (I assume).
----
I am in favor of starting another GA immediately. It would be good to push towards Cuirassiers. Also, although our empire is smaller now, the gains of working Cottages in a GA (100% boost to commerce) are more substantial than working Villages or Towns (20% boost, or whatever).
For the Forbidden Palace, yes, I'm ok with Aksum building it after the Forge. Do we have enough Forests to chop this and the Taj?
DB needs a Missionary + Granary + Courthouse, to become profitable. How much will it cost until then? ~10GPT? It is also low in pop, IIRC, and only has one resource. It seemed like we would need to devote a lot of Worker turns and effort for a minimal gain. Do we have enough Workers to chop and Cottage around Aksum/Lalibela/other new cities? I could give a more definite opinion later.
Aksum has 10 forests available. Not enough for both. We might not be able to finish both in 12 turns, but won't be too far away with 3 hills to work (14 * (2.25 or 2.5) = 31~35 hpt) for building Taj.
Workers are a bit tight in this area, 7 around, we can expect 1 more from DB. If we cease fire with Toku, we might be able to steal a couple more.
Workers are a bit tight in this area, 7 around, we can expect 1 more from DB. If we cease fire with Toku, we might be able to steal a couple more.
