SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

Dhoomstriker · Apr 28, 2014

Sounds great from the initial report!

Do we need to start planning some of ZPV's pre-builds right now?

Are you still thinking of T146 Steam Power?

Did we get Huayna up to Friendly status and then did we do anything about it (bribe him into a war)?

Have you gifted any Cities yet? If yes, kindly indicate somewhere how much Culture we had put into each one, so that we don't forget.

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

700 AD Log: (was too large)

Spoiler :

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

Forget it. Madrid has fishing nets. Maybe I was wrong about being able to see them when hovering over... :blush:

Spoiler :

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

.....

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

.....

Dhoomstriker · Apr 28, 2014

There was on Civ 3 XOTM where there were invisible Barb boats all over the water on the map. They were more like sea creatures, but they served the same purpose.

ZPV · Apr 28, 2014

@LC: I have a t104 save where we can see the unnetted clams at Madrid. You might be on to something here.

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

I should have been more cautious with the boat (not like we don't have time for another one, but still.)

I would say we need to:

1) watch for a caravel being created in Barcelona.

2) Stop in the fort next turn and don't use the last movement. (works well with #3 below)

3) End a turn 3 tiles away from the Madrid island.

Mitchum · Apr 28, 2014

Nice work, WT. :goodjob:

If we can have Steam Power in 2 turns, I think now is the time for ZPV to post any requirement he needs for his executive spreading plan. Things like population requirements (how many and by when), whip pre-builds, etc. Maybe he's already done this but we really need to have it wired because now is the time we can make adjustments more easily.

I think we may need to stay in Caste System for a turn after SP to run a bunch or merchants at 0% research to save up a load of cash as ZPV mentioned several posts ago. I'm a bit worried because we had negative cash flow at 0% slider when not in a GA, right? So the only thing we have to carry us through are selling techs (I guess it will only be Alex once we DoW HC; Asoka won't have much), city capture gold and fail gold (other than building Wealth, of course).

As we spread ALU, our costs will go up significantly so our economy will go from bad to worse quickly. I think we need to estimate what our economy will be post GA building Wealth where appropriate. We then need to anticipate how it will deteriorate over time as more cities get infected with ALU. We also need an estimate of how much city capture gold we'll be getting per city. It's possible that we'll have more than enough gold but it sure would suck to have 5 executives sitting around with no gold to actually spread them.

At the current time, what is the critical path? "Steam Power -> ALU spread" or "Conquest?" If it's Conquest, we do have the option I mentioned above of Steam Power ASAP followed by a turn (or more?) of Caste and then revolt to Slavery + Universal Suffrage. In other words, it make little sense to spread ALU ASAFP if Conquest is the critical path.

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

I think we will have a nice positive cash flow. It might make sense to run 1 turn of caste after Steam since HQ is still in revolt.

I think it's best for us if we don't start pre-builds for whipping unless we absolutely have to. Hopefully ZPV has these needs wired. We are best served by more cash for the first few turns after Steam.

For the same reason, I don't think we should give away Bursa and Santiago just yet. Maybe next turn or the Steam turn.

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

I'm gonna go ahead and estimate that we can pull 1 turn of 400 gpt after Steam. And then drop only to 300 gpt after slavery on the next turn. Probably 200 gpt once we start all the pre-builds and exec builds. With conquest gold I think we will be able to rush-buy 2 execs pretty easy out of HQ--depends on if we can hold off on our pre-builds a bit some places.

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

WT, how long has our Ankara galley been sitting at Anakara-1NE?

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

LowtherCastle said:
WT, how long has our Ankara galley been sitting at Anakara-1NE?

I moved it there. So, probably 1 turn, maybe two. I would move it back to Ankara this turn.

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

LowtherCastle said:
Forget it. Madrid has fishing nets. Maybe I was wrong about being able to see them when hovering over...

The Mystery of the Ice and Missing AI Nets

For most of the game I've noticed that Madrid and Ankara seafood didn't have fishing nets. I've already commented on it. If there are fishing nets, that shows up when you hover over the tile, just like pastures and whatnot.

And why the ice between KK and Nappy?

And now why the workboat in Madrid?

But why don't we see a barb ironclad or something?

Suddenly dawned on me that maybe there are barb submarines in one or more of the bodies of water.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but what better way kcd to be evil with someone who went for Sushi, thinking it was easier?

So we don't want to leave our Florence galley out to sea.

Madrid-1E could have a fort. Murcia is good.

We could test this with a wb at Ankara.

Note: WT, remember you said you didn't seeing exploration as particularly important in this game? Well how about underwater exploration...

Okay, I tested it and I was right after all: We can hover over an AI tile and see if it has nets or not.

So that tells me that Madrid must have just built those nets, because the T143 save shows no nets and Heinz actually sees the clam tile.

A barb submarine with Nav II can move 8 tiles per turn. That means our galley could have been safe on the open water for 1 turn but would not be the next. I think we should move our galley back into Ankara this turn. Move it to the fort next turn. And wait to see what happens with the fishing nets. In fact, those fishing nets were built at the just the right time to give us a free test of whether nets are safe.

The only problem is, I assume that if there is a barb sub, it won't pillage the nets till they're enculturated, which is in 8t. :argh: I suggest Ankara builds a wb in 2t.

Or we just wait 2t to find out if there is coal there. But I wouldn't risk the galley. I don't see any reason before knowing there's coal. We might have to whip a galley at Madrid and/or Murcia and rush the coal fort(s).

xpost

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

Check that. Barcelona still has culture on the clams and will till we capture it. So we should find out shortly. A sub has 6 moves without Nav, so it could require 3t max to pillage.

Mitchum · Apr 28, 2014

WastinTime said:
I'm gonna go ahead and estimate that we can pull 1 turn of 400 gpt after Steam. And then drop only to 300 gpt after slavery on the next turn. Probably 200 gpt once we start all the pre-builds and exec builds. With conquest gold I think we will be able to rush-buy 2 execs pretty easy out of HQ--depends on if we can hold off on our pre-builds a bit some places.

OK. I thought our gpt would be negative like it was before when we weren't in a Golden Age. I guess it depends on how much Wealth we can build relative to cats, trebs, knights, executives, etc. If Conquest is the critical path, we favor units over Wealth. If spreading ALU is the critical path, we can build fewer units and more wealth.

Keep in mind that as we whip and draft our cities, their output gets worse and our economy suffers accordingly. So even if we can pull in 200 gpt after the GA, it will continue to drop as corporate maintenance goes up and as city output goes down. As long as city capture gold keeps up with our expenses, we'll be fine.

BTW, the state of the economy is always the hardest part to anticipate (at least for me... and Congress! :lol:

. Some times things happen a lot faster than expected but sometimes the economy crashes (like when REXing hard really early) and things take a lot longer.

Dhoomstriker · Apr 28, 2014

I'm very hesitant to let Cities get above 3 of our Culture where the Cities are Cities that we want to raze. We might be okay with an AI getting "too much" Culture to expand the City's Cultural Borders by putting in 4 of our own Culture, but getting Asoka into Free Religion might not be all that workable.

I recall Kublai being in Free Religion, though, so if we don't mind not eliminating him, he might be a reasonable candidate to whom to take a Cease Fire with at some point and gift Cities? Obviously, we couldn't gift him back his own Cities, nor could we gift him any far away Cities if he has too many, so he might not be the best of candidates.

WastinTime · Apr 28, 2014

Well, we're only talking about 2 cities: Bursa and Santiago. Both are christian, so even if Asoka only puts 10 culture in them, they will go higher.

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

Is there a plan for Fort #8 which still needs 1t fort and 2 steam-turns road?

LowtherCastle · Apr 28, 2014

Can't we starve Santiago down to pop1, then gift to Asoka, re-capture and raze any time as long as KK is still alive?

Edit: Note that Asoka will be willing to talk to us after 2t if we capture his empty city.

SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

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