SGOTM 19 - The Shawshank Redemption

[LowtherCastle]

I can agree to the monument, granary thing in #3 too.

I think we are done arguing. I don't want to hijack the turnset. Dhoom, you're going to have to do a test run anyway once you're ready to play. When you have time, I think you can do a quick test run and then play. You know the goals:

1) get 7 new axes built and moving by T42
2) Worker1 chops non stop
chop monument in #3, move N, chop granary in #3, move, chop workboat
3) Worker2 does 2 roads, then chops granary
move NW of Trumpster, road, SW, road, Chop granary in #3.

Note: city 3 does not whip until it gets to size 4 (2-whip library around T54 or T55) another option is to 1-whip the granary or wb, but we can start playing without this decision.

My vote is for 2a unless you or someone actually tests 2c. Better a tested variant than an untested one.

My wager is more of a provocation to get someone to try it than a guarantee it's better.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The thing is, I don't understand the thinking about how the Workers' Roading is going to be sufficient to get our Axes to the front lines, so that's why I want to see someone who has a clear head about how it works lay it out for me.

It was a lot of work to take the snippets from Message 1420, which I did in the middle of the night to give people a chance to review it, and turn it into a functioning run, and then it turns out that we apparently want to discard that approach. I. am. out. of. testing. energy.

Please provide me with a clear testing run with details and I can do my best to reproduce it. I am out of energy to be able to reproduce something from a set of ideas.

 

[WastinTime]

My vote is for 2a unless you or someone actually tests 2c. Better a tested variant than an untested one.

I just ran thru 2c real quick. Like you said, you basically get a free monument.

the reason I don't post most of my saves is because I play very fast and often make mistakes and I have to adjust in my head when the city grows or hammers, etc. You certainly can't look at the beakers because I don't even touch cities 1 and 2. I'm just testing the timing of city #3.

 

[WastinTime]

The thing is, I don't understand the thinking about how the Workers' Roading is going to be sufficient to get our Axes to the front lines,

It's pretty straight forward. We 2pop whip both cities T40 for our last 4 axes. the last 2 move on T42.

The last, slowest, Axe#8, comes from LM and it only needs 2 roads to attack T48. The first 6 axes can get there T47.

So 2 roads is sufficient.

 

[WastinTime]

Either one of your runs in 1427 probably work fine (i.e. get 8 axes moving by T42)
You just need to add the new worker micro which is very simple (one chops, one roads).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Either one of your runs in 1427 probably work fine

Are you sure? One approach needed the Desert Road to hit Constantinople on Turn 47 with 8 Axes. From what I understand, you are suggesting cutting out 3 Roads.

You just need to add the new worker micro which is very simple (one chops, one roads).

What I need is a test run that proves that it will work, not just "probably work" and then it turns out not to, which will just leave me banging my head against a wall trying to figure out what I did wrong.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

If we do go with a 2-square-Roading approach (pending someone giving me testing notes and some kind of saved game), note that it means we're going in with 8 Axes max, with, from my understanding, little chance for reinforcements to arrive in a timely manner.

It could be less Axes if the Barbs ambush us.

I am not pushing for any particular test run right now, but will only support playing a test run with details and a Turn 46 test game that shows it can work. So, be sure that whatever you vote on out of any "2a," "2b," "2c," or "2d" type of options that you also vote on a backup choice in case no one presents testing data from one of those, as then I'll be going with the most popular backup choice.

 

[WastinTime]

Are you sure? One approach needed the Desert Road to hit Constantinople on Turn 47 with 8 Axes. From what I understand, you are suggesting cutting out 3 Roads..

The team voted to have 6 axes ready for T47 and 8 for T48, so either of your plans will work with only 2 roads instead of 4 or 5

 

[WastinTime]

in case no one presents testing data from one of those, as then I'll be going with the most popular backup choice.

Everyone wants one worker to road and one to chop. Do your best to get as many axes as possible. I'm confident you can do it! I don't foresee anyone doing formal testing for you. I think the team will be disappointed if you just go ahead with the "5 road backup plan" because you are too frustrated.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I am not frustrated. I am exhausted. If I have to test tonight, I won't be playing until another 24 hours later, as I am out of physical energy to do both in one night. Before I could have... but now I am burned out.

 

[WastinTime]

Just plan/play a few turns.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Playing ahead by me is not likely going to be as you wish, as the current plan is to send 2 Workers to Trumpster-1NW on Turn 38.

 

[WastinTime]

Playing ahead by me is not likely going to be as you wish, as the current plan is to send 2 Workers to Trumpster-1NW on Turn 38.

Not what I meant.

I meant you can do a test run to ONLY T40. At this point you will know that LM is size 4 and can 2pop whip 2 axes and Trumpster is also capable of the same.

This is all you need to test to ensure the axes will arrive on time. Then you can play.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

There are two options.

I do testing tonight and don't play tonight.

Someone else presents the micro as I requested and I can play tonight.

 

[WastinTime]

Fine, you should probably plan to catch a movie tonight then, cus testing will take you all of 10 minutes.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Every time that I write a new set of PPP micro, it takes me 2 to 3 hours.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I am completely unclear as to what is being asked to be done differently.

As it stands, I have no test run to compare against, but I think that following WT's approach of not Roading the Desert square and going in for a Turn 47 8-Axe attack is pretty good. We can easily get 2 Workers coming back to help out with Chopping out the Granary at almost the perfect time to build it post-whipping of a Monument.

Lacking a competing test run to compare against, I have to conclude that it is the best option on the table and plan to play forward with that approach in a few hours' time.

I think that I have been more than fair in testing other people's testing ideas; if you don't like the planned approach, now is the time to present testing results or hold your peace.

 

[WastinTime]

That is not what the team has concluded. Everyone else wants one worker to road and one to chop. You're (purposely?) trying to make it sound complicated so you can just play the way only you want to. The test run would literally take 5 minutes. I don't see the point in me doing it for you. You will just have to do it yourself before you play anyway.

There are no "results" to compare. There are no advantages to the plan that has 2 workers roading except we can attack with 2 additional Axes on T47 instead of T48.
Everything else (food, hammer, beakers) will come out ahead with one worker chopping.

We can easily play up to T40. That's 3 turns of the test game, then repeat in the real game. As I already said, all you have to do is make sure the cities can make those last 4 axes, which will be obvious on T40.

 

[Mitchum]

I'm not sure why all of this sounds so difficult. I totally get how everyone is burned out on testing and doesn't want to do any more of it at the moment. It sounds like we're zeroing in on a plan that at least gets the game moving. According to WT (and LC?) the micro is simple and straightforward and according to Dhoom he's unclear on what to do and doesn't have the time to or energy to figure it out.

My mom is still in town but if, for some ungodly reason, we're still stuck at this point, I'll run the testing and provide the micro for Dhoom some time tomorrow. I've been out of the detailed testing loop for quite some time but I need to prepare for my turnset anyway so it will be good to figure out what the heck is going on...

My hope is that Dhoom is able to play forward tonight... I don't care how far (but it sounds like T40)... and we have more information so that our testing and discussion can be focused on what we've learned rather than detailed worker MM that apparently has been almost unanimously agreed (I could be wrong here).

@ Dhoom I sense that you're feeling the same frustration that Jastrow talked about and LC mentioned from last SGOTM. How in the heck are we going to finish this game if we keep going down these rat holes that destroy weeks of our lives? Management 101 would say that we're a dysfunctional team... on our best days!

Any ideas how to break this cycle?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I cannot do what I do not understand. I am asking for help. Spell it out like I am an idiot, because I am currently clear as mud.

From my understanding, other than WT and LC, the team wants to hit Asoka fast and hard. That is what I understood from people's comments; if I am mistaken, then I apologise.

Of the test runs that I have seen presented, there are two that can do so with a Turn 47 8-Axe attack. At one point, WT seemed happy enough with either one and LC said that he didn't care how we proceed.

I want to get the game moving and I think that we have honed in on a test run (WT's Turn 47 8-Axe attack) that balances just about every variable there is.


4 less Culture in one City, assuming no Buddhism spread, is the main difference that I understand right now. It is perhaps clear to WT, who has played out micro for City 3 without sharing a test saved game, what he wants to do, but it is not clear for me at all. Please make it clear and show with clearly-spelled-out numbers or a Turn 46 test game that it is a superior approach.

From the facts that I believe I understand... 4 less Culture, 1 turn faster attack on Constantinople, low Whipping Unhappiness, not needing the Desert Road so can go back and Chop the Granary at almost the ideal time... things look really well balanced to me.