SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Have taken a look at the save.... Our economic situation is terrible. :(

Everything else looks pretty good, but we are not far from an economic collapse. Currently we generate only 6 gold/turn at 0% research, with only 86 gold in the treasury. We can not afford more conquest right now, really -- more units to pay for plus moving them out of our own territory will put us in the red immediately. We could hope for enough city pillage cash to keep us going for a little while, but that would probably just lead to an even worse situation slightly later.

We desperately need Currency, which should give us maybe ~20 additional commerce/turn. But we do not have enough money to complete the research in less than ~10 turns. :( If we can get even a small amount of gold from Julius as part of a Poly for Priesthood trade that would help a lot. Selling him our spare wheat for 2 gpt would also help. He is the only AI with Currency right now, but once we have it ourselves we can look at selling some more resources for some much needed gpt.

We can also look at shifting our tile usage to emphasize more commerce. Some of the farms in former Suleiman territory could be converted to cottages, and we can work a few more cottages in a couple other places. Getting some scientists going in a few libraries would also help boost our meager research rate by a nice chunk. Heading for CoL after Currency would allow us to build courthouses, which would help our economy further. I would love to head for Monarchy instead to boost our happy cap, but I think CoL will need to come first. Catherine is about to complete Monarchy...maybe some other AIs will also head for the tech and it will become available in trade?

We need to consolidate our latest gains, with cities still waiting to come out of revolt and get their borders expanded, finish granaries, etc. I think Istanbul should be building a monument (or library) rather than a barracks for example.

With all the above said, we are in possession of the strongest military in the world. :) And our previous game proved it is possible to run a lot closer to the edge of bankruptcy that I am generally comfortable with in my own games. So the option of continued conquest can not be dismissed. But I do worry quite a bit about costs, and we will have to be very careful.

What does the team think we should do? I can put together a plan once we decide what we want to do next, but I am unsure how to proceed from here.
 
The economy needs attention, but it's not all that bad. :) With a few research builds we can get currency in 2 turns. If we take Julius' 80 cash for poly, we'll have enough cash to see us through those two turns at full research. We can do a poly - PH+cash deal with someone (Nap for instance) upon getting currency and then continue CoL. Obviously some switching to wealth there. Possibly we can sell off some more stuff with currency in hand, so I think we're doing quite ok, but would advise to jiggle to get currency asap (i.e. 2 turns).

Just noticed the Hammam as our UB. Might be worth it for the 2 extra happies in our bigger cities.

Agree about library in Istanbul. Ankara I'd also get one instead of monument. Whip gran into it. Ghuzz first whip WB then granary.

After a night's sleep stll fancy Louis as a target. Maybe he's building mids for us. :D
 
Yep poly for JCs gold seems the way to go plus a little bit of research building will get us to currency.

Personally for me after currency we should go for construction. Cataphants in this position will enable us to grab as much land as we want/need. Courthouses can wait a bit. Much rather have units.. :lol:

A few library builds seem in order as well. Better than monuments and if the city has food we can whip them pretty easily.

Nice going McArine.. :)
 
^ I can be easily swayed to construction before CoL. :D You're probably right about that being the right move to follow up on our HAs. It'll make it much easier to dislodge the holy cities too and remember some LBs in barb cities. Speaking of which, likely from Ghuzz we should get a galley to set sail west, seems that barb (presumably holy) city there is only accesible from the sea.
 
I agree with nocho and sleepless.

I am not too worried about the economy yet. We have some cottages in place and working. We can build/grow more. Concentrate on improving riverside so we get the "extra commerce" where we can.

I also like Construction next unless we think we can trade for it.

I would get my troops in position. I would try to bribe Nappy <-> Louis into war if possible and the attack immediately.
 
I can't see us getting construction in trade any time soon. The AI don't like trading it much. Well in my games anyway.

We should be able to get Monarchy though (from Cathie?) easy enough if she is only one turn away.
 
Eyes on the prize:
Your goals
You have sworn to rebuild your empire and to ensure such madness will never be repeated, by encouraging and not suppressing faith. To do so...

Take control of the Religions! - Only you (or your vassals) may own a Holy City.
Bring them together! - Each of your cities has at least two religions. There are at least seventy temples in your cities. Each Great Prophet settled in your cities counts as four temples.
Promote Equality! - You must adopt and stay in Free Religion upon learning Liberalism.
End the madness! - You will be told how to do that after you capture (or found) Holy Cities for three religions or when you have met every other civilization.
Prove that you are a worthy ruler! - You win the game in any way but conquest.
I do think we should send out some more explorers:
A galley to explore around the southern coast.
Spare a horse archer or chariot or two to reveal more along land.

I'd say we aren't done conquering yet. 20 cities minimum would be a very strong empire. We could even peacefully expand some more in the Northeast.

How many workers do we have? We have 9 cities with possibly more on the way...
 
I think Hammam builds/whips would be beneficial in our larger cities. 2 permanent :) for 100:hammers: is relatively cheap.

We have 11 workers and 9 working cities this turn. 10 working cities next turn and 11 2 turns later.

I would love to find and capture The Great Lighthouse! We have many more coastal cities than I imagined we would have 100 turns in! Dreaming....

Reality....

Big push by building research and making the trade nocho talked about gets us to currency. We turn our ever so slight advantage of the HA's into Louis and capture some more great dirt! I still like the idea of getting the french to fight each other somehow before we DOW. That has to work in our favor imo.
 
A couple things to think about....

adrianj mentions using a galley to explore the southern coast. A closer look reveals there is no "coast" as such -- all the southern waters are coastal! We can sail galleys out into the open. There are borders visible south of our conquered territory, probably another barb holy city. But that whole stretch of water, all the way to the south of the two Frances, is coast. What might be hidden out there in the fog? Note that one of the Romans has already planted a city on an island south of us -- there may be more AI cities to the south, since the water is passable by galleys.

Marble Arch and Silver Lining are currently defended by a single warrior each. We must improve our defenses before we consider war with France, especially since Louis has cities to our immediate northeast.

I think we need a preparatory turnset, consolidating our recent conquests and taking care of a bit of economy and infrastructure, before we declare war again. Goals of this turnset would be:

- Finish Currency tech and begin next tech (Construction? or CoL?)
- Get some actual defenders into our northern cities
- Reinforce Rheims for safety, as it will be a target if/when we declare on France (either of them); maybe we need another galley, if we want the current one to explore?
- Shuffle our military forces to prepare for war, massing HAs and supporting units (chariots for axes, maybe an axe or two) for the next war
- Complete a round of infrastructure builds: hammams in largest cities (SL, HF, CS), granaries in new conquests, some culture (monument where already underway, library where possible) in new conquests

I would make the trade with Julius immediately, Poly for Priesthood + 40 gold. The cash plus some library scientists in SL (and maybe some research builds if we are a bit short) will finish Currency. Then we work slowly on the next tech at whatever breakeven research rate we can manage. Focus on growing cities while working commerce tiles, while still building military after completing one round of infrastructure.

Continue exploration, including sending our galley south to find out what is in the fog. Leave barbarian holy cities alone for now, they will be much easier targets once we have elepults to reduce their cultural defenses and attack their defenders.
 
Not overly concerned about defenders in MA or SL. We will be attacking, not defending. ;)

Finish Currency! Check
Rheims - Reinforce for 2 pronged assault on Louis.
Shuffle - Yes, to Rheims and MA
Julius trade - Yes
Build research - YES - Everywhere imo until Currency is learned.
Hammam builds in SL/HF/CS - Whip in SL/HF and chop in CS imo.
Next Tech ??? - I say Construction! 0% saving cash
Exploration - Yes, with some caveats. I am not overly concerned with the barb islands to the south east. Pretty sure we will find a holy city there eventually. I want to see what is SW and would love to find the last AI.

Get WB's 1st for all our nets!
 
Not overly concerned about defenders in MA or SL. We will be attacking, not defending. ;)

We need something better than a warrior in MA, at least. SL can build an emergency defender if needed since it has multiple rings of culture. But MA has only 1 border pop, and Louis could have chariots or HAs of his own.

Exploration - Yes, with some caveats. I am not overly concerned with the barb islands to the south east. Pretty sure we will find a holy city there eventually. I want to see what is SW and would love to find the last AI.

The last AI is almost certainly not on our continent, or we would have met them already. They might be hidden behind mountains perhaps. But more likely they are across the water somewhere, which might mean to the south. Victoria had WBs out exploring to the southwest and had not met the last AI (assuming it is another England and she would have -20 for worst enemy).

Get WB's 1st for all our nets!

Definitely will include this.

Do we want to consider settlers for the seafood site east of SL, or the wheat/copper southwest on the edge of barb territory? Solid sites but they would add costs in the short term, so probably we can wait on them. The site east of SL is definitely ours whenever we want it, but we might lose the other site to Catherine or one of the Romans.

I agree with the above, with one addition, when currency is in, markets in our high commerce cities.

Markets are expensive. Probably the only city worth it at the moment would be SL, and I would like to get a hammam there first. SL also has our only library at the moment, so running some scientists would also be helpful. But we should get a market in SL eventually.
 
Whipping some markets in our cottage cities after we reach happy cap somewhere along the line makes sense, especially if we are running the slider at 0% science. ;)
 
Played 2 turns, and we have a possible trade to decide on as well as our tech path.

Quick summary:

T100 (inherited turn)

- Make the Poly for Preisthood + 40 gold trade with Julius
- Trade our spare wheat to Julius for 2 gpt
- No idea why we were trading silver (!) to Catherine for Rice when we have tons of spare health? :confused: Cancelled the deal, traded her our spare cow for the rice instead.
- Shuffle a lot of builds and tile usage, apply the whip here and there, etc.
- Assign two scientists in SL to help our research, start generating some GPP

Turn 101

- We get the list of wealthiest civs: Victoria, Catherine, the unknown AI, Augustus, us, Julius, Sulieman, and Louis. Napoleon is too broke to even mention. :lol: We have 55 gold, for comparison.
- Augustus asks us to declare on Julius. I refuse as per policy.
- Cathy finishes researching Monarchy...and is willing to trade it! :eek: We will have Currency next turn, or we could research Monarchy until she would take Math for it.
- Assign research builds in many cities to just barely complete Currency next turn.

Turn 102

- Cathy asks for Math. :( Well, we knew she was a high-maintenance neighbor. I reluctantly agree.
- Currency completes, our economy looks much better (but still not exactly great).
- Louis has planted a 6th city (Dijon) somewhere.

I stopped at this point for decisions.

Catherine will trade Monarchy (525) for Currency (700) -- unfortunately she has no cash so we probably get another -diplo with Peter. But I think we should grab Monarchy! Catherine is the only AI with the tech so I have no idea why she is willing to trade (maybe she knows the last AI and they also have it?). But we should grab this opportunity and revolt to HR to boost our happy caps. Building cheap archers for garrison duty will pay off if the extra citizen can work a commerce tile, and we can grow some of our cities much larger very quickly while boosting our commerce.

Our other decision is what to research next. Construction would be good for further war. Calendar would allow us to improve the banana at Edirne, plus another banana and incense when borders pop there and at Ankara. Code of Laws would unlock our cheap organized courthouses to further improve our economy. These seem like the best options, although MC, Aesthetics, and Mono are also available.

I like Construction next for cats and elephants, followed by CoL for courthouses to reduce costs. Calendar is known to at least one AI and hopefully we can trade for it in the not too distant future. MC would be nice for forges (we have silver and will soon have gems) but is not as urgent since the triremes are no longer an issue. Aesthetics...do we have any interest in the Great Library? What do we want to do with our epics? (Note also that we can already build Moai, although we do not have stone yet so we may want to wait a bit.)

What does the team think? I have been shuffling military units towards Rheims and Marble Arch in preparation for a war against the French, but we need at least a couple more turns to have all our current units in position. I have been focusing on some infra, but military production is already starting to pick back up in core cities.

Upload log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 375 BC to 325 BC:

Turn 100, 375 BC: Silver Lining will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Marble Arch can hurry Work Boat for 1&#8692; with 19&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Istanbul has grown to size 4.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Istanbul can hurry Barracks for 1&#8692; with 3&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Edirne has grown to size 2.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Edirne can hurry Monument for 1&#8692; with 20&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Ankara can hurry Granary for 1&#8692; with 4&#8484; overflow and +1&#8676; for 10 turns.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Rheims will be pacified on the next turn.
Turn 100, 375 BC: You are the worst enemy of Suleiman.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Augustus Caesar is the worst enemy of Julius Caesar.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Catherine is the worst enemy of Peter.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Julius Caesar is the worst enemy of Augustus Caesar.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Napoleon is the worst enemy of Louis XIV.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Louis XIV is the worst enemy of Napoleon, Victoria.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Peter is the worst enemy of Catherine.
Turn 100, 375 BC: Catherine will trade Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Julius Caesar will trade Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Napoleon will trade Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Louis XIV will trade Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Peter will trade Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Victoria will trade Monotheism, Priesthood
Turn 100, 375 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Augustus Caesar, Peter
Turn 100, 375 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 100, 375 BC: Deal Canceled: Silver to Catherine for Rice
Turn 100, 375 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Ankara. Work has now begun on a Monument.

Turn 101, 350 BC: Rheims has been pacified.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Catherine will trade Monarchy
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have discovered Currency!
Turn 101, 350 BC: You have constructed a Monument in Istanbul. Work has now begun on a Barracks.
Turn 101, 350 BC: Catherine adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 101, 350 BC: Louis XIV has founded Dijon in a distant land.

Turn 102, 325 BC: Silver Lining has grown to size 9.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Silver Lining has become unhappy.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Copper Summit has grown to size 7.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Marble Arch has grown to size 4.


BUFFY log:

Spoiler :

Turn 100/500 (375 BC) [30-Aug-2014 01:51:43]
Tech traded to Julius Caesar (Rome): Polytheism
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Priesthood
Silver Lining begins: Hammam (10 turns)
Istanbul begins: Monument (10 turns)
Rheims begins: Monument (31 turns)
Ghuzz begins: Granary (61 turns)
A Pasture was built near Marble Arch
A Pasture was built near Marble Arch
100% Research: 103 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -70 per turn, 126 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Marble Arch
The whip was applied in Ankara
Marble Arch finishes: Work Boat
Ankara finishes: Granary

Turn 101/500 (350 BC) [30-Aug-2014 02:18:16]
Diplomacy (War Request): Augustus Caesar (Rome) asks Mehmed (Ottomans) to declare war on Julius Caesar (Rome); Mehmed REFUSES.
Marble Arch begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Marble Arch
70% Research: 108 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
30% Gold: -53 per turn, 56 in the bank

After End Turn:
Whip anger has decreased in Copper Summit
The whip was applied in Istanbul
The whip was applied in Ankara
Tech research finished: Currency
Silver Lining grows to size 9
Horse Farm finishes: Work Boat
Copper Summit grows to size 7
Marble Arch grows to size 4
Istanbul grows to size 4
Istanbul finishes: Monument
Ankara grows to size 4
Ankara finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Catherine(Russia) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 102/500 (325 BC) [30-Aug-2014 02:31:28]
Diplomacy (Help Request): Catherine (Russia) asks Mehmed (Ottomans) for Mathematics; Mehmed AGREES.
Tech traded to Catherine (Russia): Mathematics
Research begun: Construction (4 Turns)
Horse Farm begins: Hammam (9 turns)
Ankara begins: Hammam (100 turns)
A Fishing Boats was built near Horse Farm
A Mine was built near Edirne
Copper Summit begins: Horse Archer (3 turns)
Marble Arch begins: Work Boat (4 turns)
 
Quick comments (no time till this evening):
- fine with monarchy trade and revolt to HR
- get cash for myst from Augustus. Any civ willing to give >=50 for poly at some point, take the cash
- construction next
- I do like a settler for the double sea food (plus third shared with MA) east of SL. I think it'll pay back soon enough. Also low maintenance costs.
- Markets have been mentioned, I think they are too expensive at this stage.
- I'd build lib before hammam in Ankara. Border will pop sooner, typical city to hire 2 scientists
- Ghuzz, whip a WB before granary. After granary would build lib here too (or galley if we wanna go west, but not monument nor hammam)
- Take a look at Louis' territory NE of MA with that HA while we're not at war yet
 
Currency for monarchy seems reasonable. Monarchy is one the AI will always trade if there friendly enough even if its a monopoly so as I mentioned pretty easy to get from Cathie.

Agree with Nocho's posts above.

Especially want to see what sort of units Louis has. Use the scout for Orleans etc. If we are serious on going for Loius another big round of chopping/whipping troops would seem in order rather than to many buildings.
 
Especially want to see what sort of units Louis has. Use the scout for Orleans etc. If we are serious on going for Loius another big round of chopping/whipping troops would seem in order rather than to many buildings.

We will need more military to take on Louis. But with Construction being researched, do we really want to start heavily chopping/whipping now or do we wait a bit longer and chop/whip elephants instead? I was thinking we should get some infrastructure done now (especially in the newly conquered cities that need the basics) while we tech Construction, and then go back to pushing military heavily.
 
Of course newer cities should get their basic infra, but more mature cities can keep on spewing units while heading towards construction. I think HAs can still do a lot of damage on Louis. At least certainly wouldn't wait for construction to attack him. He should be about finished when we get to construction. ;) Elepults for barb cities, Russians and possibly Napoleon.
 
Yep the good thing with HA's is there mobility. The 2 moves speeds up conquest considerably and what we want to do is win the game asap. One of the reasons I like cuirassiers though I think they would come to late in this game to win in a good time.

Also keep an eye on Cathie as we might be able to beg some gold shortly.
 
Played 2 more turns. Sorry for these short little bites, but things keep coming up that need to be discussed. Such is Civ. :lol:

Turn 102 (continued)

- Traded Currency to Catherine for Monarchy, and revolted to HR.
- Louis has a settler party (including a spear :() NE of MA. I guess he is going for the iron north of MA, squeezing in a city between us, him, and Peter.

Turn 103

- Sell Mysticism to Augustus for 50 of his 60 gold. Fair value, so no -diplo, and we can use the cash.

Turn 104

- Victoria wants Monarchy and offers Mono + 30 gold. I refuse. She will need to throw in a lot more gold to make that a good deal.
- Suleiman declares war on Victoria! :lol: Ummm, Suleiman, you do realize you have only a single, rather small and poor city, right? Victoria only has 3 cities, admittedly, but who knows where they even are?
- And the big news of the turn, Peter completes the Pyramids! :D

I am thinking a change of war targets is in order. :evil: Peter's lands are not as large or as lush as Louis' but they are pretty decent, and the Pyramids would certain be a very nice thing to have. Do we want to shift plans for a war against Peter? Or do we continue with the planning for annexing Louis' territory, with a follow-on war against Peter afterwards?

Scouting of Louis' lands so far shows mostly axes and archers in his cities, although he does have at least one spear that I have seen so far. Peter's forces are pretty much unknown, but he certainly has metal so at least some axes and spears are likely.

Thoughts? Changing targets to Peter will not change our builds much (if at all) but would impact troop shuffling as we would need to gather forces back from Rheims to join the northern assault force. I have shifted build priorities to military, skipping hammams for now since we got Monarchy. With some chopping underway at SL, we should add more HAs fairly rapidly. Need to get some workers to CS to help there (or just build one or two there, we could use some more) and speed up military output.

Upload log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 325 BC to 275 BC:

Turn 102, 325 BC: Silver Lining has grown to size 9.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Silver Lining has become unhappy.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Copper Summit has grown to size 7.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Marble Arch has grown to size 4.
Turn 102, 325 BC: You are the worst enemy of Suleiman.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Augustus Caesar is the worst enemy of Julius Caesar.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Catherine is the worst enemy of Peter.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Julius Caesar is the worst enemy of Augustus Caesar.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Napoleon is the worst enemy of Louis XIV.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Louis XIV is the worst enemy of Napoleon, Victoria.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Peter is the worst enemy of Catherine.
Turn 102, 325 BC: Catherine will trade Monarchy
Turn 102, 325 BC: Victoria will trade Monotheism
Turn 102, 325 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Augustus Caesar
Turn 102, 325 BC: You have discovered Monarchy!
Turn 102, 325 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Mehmed adopts Hereditary Rule!
Turn 102, 325 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 &#8484; for Ankara.
Turn 102, 325 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 102, 325 BC: A Forest has grown near Silver Lining!

Turn 103, 300 BC: Silver Lining has become happy.
Turn 103, 300 BC: Ghuzz has been pacified.
Turn 103, 300 BC: Suleiman has declared war on Victoria!
Turn 103, 300 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!

Turn 104, 275 BC: Horse Farm has grown to size 7.
Turn 104, 275 BC: Catherine will trade Monotheism
Turn 104, 275 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Peter


BUFFY log:

Spoiler :

Turn 102/500 (325 BC) [31-Aug-2014 07:12:50]
Tech traded to Catherine (Russia): Currency
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Monarchy
Ankara begins: Library (91 turns)
A Cottage was built near Edirne
Ankara begins: Work Boat (31 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
100% Gold: 2 per turn, 3 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Suleiman (Ottomans) towards Catherine (Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Julius Caesar (Rome) towards Catherine (Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: Mehmed(Ottomans) from 'Despotism' to 'Hereditary Rule'

Turn 103/500 (300 BC) [31-Aug-2014 07:23:11]
Tech traded to Augustus Caesar (Rome): Mysticism
Horse Farm begins: Horse Archer (6 turns)
Ankara begins: Library (90 turns)
Ghuzz begins: Work Boat (15 turns)
0% Research: 7 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 27 per turn, 55 in the bank

After End Turn:
Silver Lining finishes: Swordsman
Horse Farm grows to size 7
Rheims finishes: Monument

Other Player Actions:
Suleiman (Ottomans) declares war on Victoria (England)
Attitude Change: Suleiman (Ottomans) towards Victoria (England), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'
Attitude Change: Peter (Russia) towards Mehmed (Ottomans), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Victoria (England) towards Suleiman (Ottomans), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 104/500 (275 BC) [31-Aug-2014 07:40:55]
Diplomacy: Victoria (England) offers to trade Monotheism to Mehmed (Ottomans) for Monarchy
Diplomacy: Mehmed (Ottomans) rejects trade of Monarchy to Victoria (England) for Monotheism
Silver Lining begins: Horse Archer (5 turns)
Rheims begins: Library (30 turns)
A Cottage was built near Ankara
 
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