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SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jun 30, 2014.

  1. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I forgot to say anything about it sooner, sorry. Maybe someone else mentioned it and I missed it.

    In case it matters for making a test game or something.

    Silver Lining is located at X = 39, Y = 28. The map is 84 x 52.

    We are very close to the center of the map
     
  2. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    Agree with double moving scout and moving warrior SW now. Border pop will uncover tiles too.
    No strong feelings about the promo, drill or combat are fine with me.
     
  3. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    I am not a big fan of Drill promotions. If we are not planning to retreat the archer to guard the capital, then Combat would be my choice.

    Interesting info on the X-Y coordinates, Ronnie1. :goodjob: I had been assuming we were closer to the northern edge of the map. But being near the center means we can expand (possibly) to the north rather than hitting tundra and ice. I wonder just how far the western wall of mountains extends?

    Do we want to move the scout twice per turn, or once per turn? If the pre-placed barbs are only to the south, it is probably safe enough for a while to move twice a turn. Animals should start spawning soon, but even on immortal we should have a few turns of safety.

    I am a bit concerned about leaving the capital empty, at least until the first border pop for a bit more visibility. But if the team prefers we can move the warrior south along the mountains to explore.

    So, next turn looks like:

    - Archer promotes (Combat 1? Drill? Other?) and heals on his hill
    - Scout NW-NW
    - Warrior south (sticking to hills for defense)

    Votes on which promotions the archer should take? Other suggestions/concerns/ideas?
     
  4. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    Why do people not like Drill promos. Drill IV is the best defensive promo imo. Never take any damage!
     
  5. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    1) Getting Drill IV takes 4 promotions. Not very likely to ever happen.
    2) The early Drill promotions aren't very good.
    3) There are common units that are immune to first strikes.

    I prefer to take the safer options, which provide immediate benefit and can not be ignored by enemies.
     
  6. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    Is drill IV never take any damage, or never take any collateral damage?

    Still, I like drill promotions: doesn't drill I give extra first strike chance, and drill II up that to a guaranteed extra first strike?

    The extra seafood can't all be had in one city ...

    Not at game atm, but is there a coastal spot that also includes the deer in BFC? Maybe city 2 needs to be a deer-feed mine-fueled naval base, to sweep the seas to use the seafood? Might need to chop a monument to get it going ...

    Hmm, better yet, if we settled SW of second barb trireme, we could get capital cow and marble in the BFC. A pre-loaded galley could drop a worker and defender on the marble with one move out and one move back to city on the same turn. So marble for oracle might be possible. And then build ships to make the seafood safe

    dV
     
  7. Ororo

    Ororo King

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    Personally, I would go for CG2 (not trying to be a hipster, I honestly think it's the best option :D). If we heal the archer to full health, he is going to be invincible inside of that fort and can slowly but surely level up to 10 exp and unlock the future Heroic epic.

    We are definitely not going to get Drill IV on that Archer. That would take 17 EXP! Where on earth are we going to get that? Barbs give up to 10. Past that you get absolutely nothing from barb fights.

    Combat 1 is allright but it just feels kind of underwhelming to me, to be perfectly honest.
     
  8. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I like CG2 in the fort better than C1.

    I would still prefer Drill 1, with Drill 2 unlocking the HE.

    I did not mean it literally, but 2 Drill IV LB's seems to be able to hold anything.
     
  9. Sleepless

    Sleepless Deity

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    I think I would go CG2 in this case with the archer as well and look to a second city somewhere to the South for him to make his home sometime. Meanwhile should be reasonably safe in the fort.. ;)

    Marble and Oracle. No way will we hook up the marble in time and that's if we can actually get a trade route going to access it. So oracle still a possibility but def no marble.

    Warrior I'm easy on if we settle him down in SL and send subsequent warriors out exploring. Scout to head NW.

    With all the triremes MC might be a good choice for the Oracle if we go for it. At immortal should be easy enough - possibly :lol:

    Plus the AI if the religions have gone won't put such a high priority on religious techs. Possibly anyway. :dunno:
     
  10. Ororo

    Ororo King

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    If we do indeed go for the Oracle (which I think we really should), I suggest building an early Library in one of our expansions and running those 2 scientists. That way, we can generate a Great Scientist instead of a Great Prophet.

    A great scientist may be used to build an academy or bulb 1/2 of Astronomy (see post #44). A great prophet is a meh in my opinion.
     
  11. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I just got to work, so it can't be me, but someone might want to test AI tech path with all the religions gone!
     
  12. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Played a bit further, until something interesting happened. Lots of that in this game so far.... :D

    T2

    - Archer promoted CG2 and healing in place on his hill
    - Warrior not much (waiting for capital's borders to pop for visibility)
    - Scout NW-NW

    T3

    - Archer continued healing, barb warrior in fort likely to attack
    - Warrior not much
    - Scout exploring
    - Demos show there are probably 2 creative civs, as land values have increased and we drop from 1st to 3rd.

    T4

    - Archer defends, kills barb warrior easily without taking any damage. Now 4/5 XP.
    - Warrior not much, borders will pop next turn
    - Scout spots borders to the north, will contact next turn. Hmmm, green?

    T5

    - Borders pop at the capital, revealing another sheep (plains hill forest) north of the BFC.
    - Scout moves north, we meet....

    Spoiler :




    Odd that his score shows as white but his borders are green. :confused: We are at 0 visible relations with Peter.

    - Archer is fully healed, moves into the fort. Hmmm, some tasty land here. :)

    Spoiler :




    Elephants! :D How to fit our cities without orphaning sea food will be something to think about.

    The north:

    Spoiler :




    Note the spot 2N of the marble. Two plains cows plus plains marble for 10 hammers/turn at size 3. I am thinking naval base to build ships and clear our waters. With the crabs it will have solid food once everything can be improved, and can be a nice hammer city for military or wonders or whatever.

    Also note the grassland stone in Peter's BFC -- very nice tile. Would like to own it ourselves. :evil:

    Current demos:

    Spoiler :




    Not a lot of changes of note. Hmmm, we are back in the lead on land. Either all the AIs have significant water in their BFC, or the non-creative civs have not popped borders until next turn? :confused: This implies lots of water in the unseen part of Peter's BFC, which may mean he is going to expand in our direction. We may have to be very proactive to scout and claim the land between us if it is desirable.

    Religion -- there were changes as of turn 4, a 31st pop/city was added by the barbs. Demos show no AI has more than 1 pop yet, so it had to be barbs. Probably a city growing rather than a new city?

    Spoiler :




    Note the changes in distribution. Back at the start the ratio were:

    3 - Judaism
    2 - Christianity
    2 - Islam
    2 - Hinduism
    1 - Buddhism
    4 - Confucianism
    2 - Taoism

    Now we see:

    3 - Judaism
    3 - Christianity (+1)
    3 - Islam (+1)
    2 - Hinduism
    2 - Buddhism (+1)
    4 - Confucianism
    2 - Taoism

    So religious spread is occuring, or the population of some cities is growing. Hard to say exactly what is happening here, but interesting to keep an eye on.

    From the victory conditions screen:

    Spoiler :




    We can see that our 1 pop is 1/31 of the global total. So there have been 2 pop growths by the barbs since T0. With 3 religious growths, maybe one city that grew had two religions? The barb city to our southeast did pop borders in one turn....

    Upload log:

    Spoiler :

    Here is your Session Turn Log from 3920 BC to 3800 BC:


    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Mehmed's Archer (3.88)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Combat Odds: 1.4%
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: (Plot Defense: +25%)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: (Fortify: +10%)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: (Hills Defense: +25%)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (71/100HP)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (42/100HP)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (13/100HP)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 29 (0/100HP)
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: Mehmed's Archer has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
    Turn 3, 3880 BC: While defending, your Archer has killed a Barbarian Warrior!

    Turn 4, 3840 BC: The borders of Silver Lining are about to expand.
    Turn 4, 3840 BC: The borders of Silver Lining have expanded!


    BUFFY log:

    Spoiler :

    Turn 2/500 (3920 BC) [12-Jul-2014 23:28:11]
    Archer promoted: City Garrison II
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    Turn 3/500 (3880 BC) [12-Jul-2014 23:28:57]
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:

    Other Player Actions:
    While defending in the wild near Silver Lining, Archer (2.43/3) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 98.6%)

    Turn 4/500 (3840 BC) [12-Jul-2014 23:32:10]
    100% Research: 9 per turn
    0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

    After End Turn:
    Silver Lining's borders expand

    Other Player Actions:
    Player contact made: Peter of Russia


    So what to do next? The warrior is unmoved, and is SW of Silver Lining. With Peter so close I don't really like the idea of leaving our capital empty.

    Scout should probably check the area between us and Peter. The archer is at full strength and is in the fort.
     
  13. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    We can reach the marble by land, and with those two plains cows that could be a really nice early hammer city. So maybe we do go for very early Oracle, and take MC so we can build triremes to clear our waters?

    Note that we are going to be spreading a lot of religions in this game. A great prophet or two to build shrines would likely be worthwhile. Of course we need to capture a holy city first. :lol: And a great scientist early is a good thought, with our capital likely to produce very good research with silver and some riverside cottages.

    This is a very good thought. But I am not sure exactly how to test it. I guess make some barb cities as holy cities and assign barbs the appropriate techs? Will the AIs notice that the religions have already been founded?
     
  14. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    Peter's green is a bit odd indeed. Some interesting settling spots, 2N of marble or something around wheat/phant once it's safe. Possibly go north first, to beat Peter to it.

    Evidently more scouting is needed. I agree the scout should first uncover the area between us and Peter. If our relations with him are normal, the warrior can safely go south. At this stage he won't attack out of the blue. Actually, he's doing some fogbusting for us. ;) I suppose the archer can go look from the top of that hill. Are we leaving him in the area though for safety?
     
  15. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Peter is quite close, and if he is coastal on his northern side then he will probably expand towards us. So grabbing the buffer area between us is likely to be a priority.

    We should definitely move the archer NE onto that hill next. It should reveal quite a few tiles. I am curious to know if that barb city is reachable, or if it is on an island. As for the archer, we can do whatever we want with him. :) But I think we should probably keep him in the general area of the fort rather than risking him in the jungles. With CG2 we do not want to lose him somewhere he does not get any bonus.

    For future cities, I am thinking:

    - Something around the marble/plains cows, maybe 2N of the marble
    - Something to grab the eastern seafood, maybe 4E of Silver Lining
    - Something to grab the southeastern seafood
    - Something to grab the wheat and elephants
    - Something to grab the deer
    - Maybe something north of Silver Lining, between us and Peter

    Obviously the last three of these need much more scouting. And there is potential overlap/conflict between the southeastern seafood and wheat/elephant sites. But just from what we can see already we have room for a very solid core of cities. :) Developing them will be slower than usual due to the barb triremes, but once we can improve the multiple seafood (5 sources already!) we should be off to a very strong early game.
     
  16. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    Settle on the marble, and build Oracle right there? Less road construction, automatic quarry with the tech, if it is a good use of the land. Could be GP farm later.

    dV
     
  17. Ororo

    Ororo King

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    I like da Vinci's suggestions as well. Masonry should be quite doable, considering we have Silver in our capital. Besides, all we need to research in order to grab MC is Pottery and BW.

    Our tech path would therefore look like this: AH -> Mining -> BW -> Mysticism -> Mysticism -> Masonry -> Meditation/Poly (Are we comitting to that Astro beeline? If so, do we skip Meditation or Drama and CoL?) -> Priesthood (start the Oracle) -> Pottery -> MC (free).

    I have made some calculations and we can finish the Oracle in 8 turns if we grow that city to size 2 before starting it and have that Cow pre-improved.

    A) 7 turns of working: 2 :hammers: per city square, 3 :hammers: per improved cow, 2 :hammers: per plains forest = 7 x 7 :hammers: x 2 (double production speed with access to Marble) = 98 :hammers:
    B) forest chop on 8th turn worth 20 x 2 = 40 :hammers:
    C) work 2 :hammers per city square, 3 :hammers: per improved cow, 1 hammer per plains tile (sucks but it's necessary) = 12 :hammers:

    To sum it up: 98 + 40 +12 = 150 :hammers:, which is the cost of the Oracle.

    There are two main benefits of building the Oracle in this city rather than in our capital:

    Our capital will be able to spam workers/settlers in the meantime and we will therefore be able to keep up with the AI expansion.

    Great Prophet points will be acummulated in our secondary city, meaning once our capital is done with workers/settlers, we can just chop/whip a Library and spawn our Great Scientist from here.
     
  18. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    On the marble...not sure why my brain wasn't seeing that. :hammer2: Excellent site, tons of food and plenty of hammers.

    OK, plan going forward:

    - Archer to check the hill NE, then either explore towards the barb city if good defensive terrain or play it safe in the fort
    - Warrior south-ish to check out the deer area
    - Scout westward along the Russion border, revealing the land between us and Peter

    Stop when worker is finished, or before if anything "interesting" happens. Suggestions, ideas, alternatives?
     
  19. da_Vinci

    da_Vinci Gypsy Prince

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    Only drawback to founding "All the Marbles" on the marble is it's along walk for a settler. Will Peter, other AI, or even Barbs city spawn grab it first?

    How soon do we need to get an observer - fogbuster east of the marble? Is that higher priority compared to scouting north of Silver Lining?

    Green Peter might mean we will also find an orange Catherine ...

    And maybe a Churchill for Gallipoli? A Victoria for the Crimean War? (or is that a Putin?)

    Or is everyone green because in theory, we are fighting our own rebellious factions?

    dV
     
  20. nocho

    nocho Deity

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    On the marble indeed sounds attractive. We could run the risk of Peter beating us to it or settling in such a way as to block our path. Should we consider building a settler at size 2?

    I think the warrior should go north after all. It does the scouting of the territory between us and Peter and then goes towards the marble. N or NE of that northern crab might be a good location for that warrior to fogbust and keep an eye on Peter's movements. Then meanwhile the scout can keep on scouting.

    The archer might actually reveal more tiles by going SE-NE, then NE-SE. Question is how far we want to advance.

    After worker I guess we'll build a warrior to go scout our south/south-west.

    Oh, it looks like the mountain range ends at the northern sheep. NW looks like an ordinary forested hill.

    It seems the worker will have 2 worker turns to spare before we get AH. If we build a road east of SL our settler would arrive a turn earlier to marble. From 1E of SL evidently we can do the cow next.

    On worker actions, it looks to me if we go AH-mining-BW as we likely will, our worker will have made the two pastures and mined the GH way before we get to BW, which we need to improve the other sheep (I guess, pasturing will require removal of forest, right? Unlike a camp.) and to mine the silver. Will we go roading? Farm grass? Squeeze in pottery for cottaging?
     

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