SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

[Kaitzilla]

Corinth could use the shared mine with Sparta if needed.

Why do we want to hire scientists in Thebes? Capital could produce the 3rd GP. The only GS we need soon is to bulb Edu.

Corinth already uses the shared mine in latest micro.
A half finished farm in the future isn't as good as a grass mine soon in Corinth I think.

Don't we need a whole bunch of Great Scientists for Education or Astro bulbs?
Making our 3rd GP from our capital would give decent odds of getting a Great Merchant because of The Great Lighthouse pollution.

I'll change the draft PPP to make Horse City have 1 worker again now.
And change Mycenae to make Swordsman instead of Catapult.

@Doshin - A warrior would be upgraded to a spear build automatically on T94 with iron hookup.
We should probably just put the into the workboat we already started the more I think about it.

@Duckweed
I don't really want to produce more units in Thebes starting T94.
The galley2 is needed by Argos settler urgently and galley1 won't arrive until T99ish.
A 2-pop whipped unit from Thebes can walk onto the galley2 if it is 1E of Athens on T96 and step off it T97 into Athens before the galley moves.
But that slows down Fish City settler by 1 turn.

What unit would we want whipped in Thebes on T95?

We can put off who produces the next workboat for Fish City until next turnset I think.

 

[Doshin]

@Doshin - A warrior would be upgraded to a spear build automatically on T94 with iron hookup.
We should probably just put the into the workboat we already started the more I think about it.

I tested a bit, and agree with this. The WB needs to be produced before the Fish City Settler, otherwise we'll settle a city with no source of food for a long time.

Could you post your latest T88 test (as far as the real game has been played)?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Official Turn 88 Test Game

**Edit**
Ok, Whales City has 2 fish now.

 

[Doshin]

Thanks. This is hard.

Trying some new stuff. I'm only focusing on the Argos/Corinth area, and the new city set-up.

 

[Doshin]

Ok. I think I'm about there. Fish City will need to produce its own WB.

 

[Doshin]

I'm very happy with this:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Everything coheres with the current plan. Iron mined and roaded first. Galley movement is timed with Settler movement and Thebes' units. We'll still get a Great Scientist in Argos before a GProphet in Sparta. The next build in Iron/Sheep could be changed to a Worker. The only thing I don't like is that Worker movement is a bit inefficient.

I'll type up the PPP in an hour or so, if you like this Kaitzilla? Most of it will fall after your set.

I attach a test file. Please ignore everything apart from Pharsalos and Ephesus.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'll look at the new Argos micro soon thnx
**Edit**
Can you write out T88 through T94 for Argos if the micro is different than what I have?
We will definitely need T95+ for the next person's turnset.
I'm tiring out to play many more turns.

I could use some more help on Horse City.
With just 1 worker, is it better to skip the road 3W1S of Sparta and just chop the forest 1S of horse tile T91 and 1N of horse tile T96?
Or should the road be completed, the road 1E of horse tile get 1/2, and then horse be pastured starting T93?

Unlike forts, I think we need to be inside borders to farm 1E of horse tile on T92.
Since the city isn't founded until T93, I think road for 1 turn is our only option.
My gut says if you are going to war, connect the horses first.

 

[Doshin]

I'll look at the new Argos micro soon thnx

I could use some more help on Horse City.
With just 1 worker, is it better to skip the road 3W1S of Sparta and just chop the forest 1S of horse tile T91 and 1N of horse tile T96?
Or should the road be completed, the road 1E of horse tile get 1/2, and then horse be pastured starting T93?

The road should be completed, the tile 1E of Horse get an improvement, and then start on the Pasture ASAP. The Horse is the best tile in the BFC before Optics.

Rather than roading, I would Farm the tile 1E of the Horse for a turn. If a Worker comes from Athens/Thebes, Corinth/Argos, or Sparta, a road (1/2 or 2/2) on this tile won't help speed their movement towards Horse City. So it can wait.

With 1 Worker, I would hope to improve the Pasture first, chop a Granary @ size 2 (2 Forests needed, before ~12/24F hopefully) and after that, complete the Farm or Camp the Deer.

I haven't tested here. Go with your instinct and tests if you disagree with this.

 

[Doshin]

Argos
T88 - Settler; x3Fish,Coast,x2Scientist
T89 - Whip Settler; x3Fish (Will found Iron City 1W of sheep tile on T92)
T90 - Settler; x3Fish
T91 - Workboat; x3Fish
T92 - Workboat; x3Fish,x1Coast
T93-T94 Settler; x3Fish,x2Scientist

T95 Settler; x3Fish,x2Scientist
T96 Settler; x3Fish,x1Coast,x1Scientist
T97 Settler; x3Fish,x1Coast,x1Scientist
T98 Settler; x3Fish,x2Coast

TBD by happiness:

T99 Work Boat; x3Fish,x2Coast
T100 Settler; x3Fish,x1Coast,x2Scientist


Galley 2
T88 - Move to 1S1W of Argos
T90 - After settler boards from Argos, move 2N1W.
T91 - Move 1N and drop off settler 1W of iron tile.
Then after 2 workers board, move 1N again.
T92 - Move 1N1E into Iron City, unload workers to improve iron, and then move 1S1W
T93-T94 Move towards 1N1E of Athens to pick up worker+catapult from Thebes island.

Settler (produced in Argos T90)
T90 - Move 1S1W into galley2
T91 - Move to 1W of iron tile from galley2
T92 - Found Iron City 1W of sheep tile

Worker (starts 1W of Athens)
T88-T89 Cottage 1W of Athens
T90 - Move to 1S1W of Corinth
T91 - Board galley 2N2E of Corinth
T92-T93 Unload from galley2 in Iron City, then Mine iron tile 1S1E of Iron City.
T94 - Road iron

T95 - Move 1 North. Pasture (1/4).
T96 - Pasture (3/4).


Worker (produced in Corinth on T88)
T88-T90 Mine 1S1W of Corinth
T91 - Board galley 2N2E of Corinth
T92-T93 Unload from galley2 in Iron City, then Mine iron tile 1S1E of Iron City.
T94 - Road iron

T95 - Move 1 North. Pasture (1/4).
T96 - Pasture (3/4).

I'm going to expand and finish this tomorrow.

Until T95, we're basically following your old plan in every regard (I think).

In the long-term, we'll produce a Settler in Argos on T99, which will unload in Sheep/Iron on T100 and found Fish City on T101.

I try to maximize OF from the Settler, so that the Work Boat in Argos will complete before we grow into unhappiness. At the same time, we'll generate the Great Scientist before the Great Prophet. The Work Boat is too late for Fish City, but could go south.

There are a few cool tricks to optimize food and production later on.

Good night.

 

[Yamps]

Very nice progress!

Btw, who are we attacking first? If we're going after Will, how do we keep him alive to buy hints? On the other hand, if going for Shaka, do we want some axes for stack protection along with swords and catapults?

 

[Duckweed]

Corinth already uses the shared mine in latest micro.
A half finished farm in the future isn't as good as a grass mine soon in Corinth I think.

Corinth has actually no food resource since capital is going to take back the Wheat in the future, therefore that grasshill should be windmill in the future. If we don't use it or rarely use the grassmine, then we should not waste worker turn on it.

Don't we need a whole bunch of Great Scientists for Education or Astro bulbs?
Making our 3rd GP from our capital would give decent odds of getting a Great Merchant because of The Great Lighthouse pollution.

GP production is better during GA. A GM is better than a GS in the middle game since we have more scientific buildings. We only need 1 GS to bulb Edu, the rest GSs needed could be produced during GA.

I'll change the draft PPP to make Horse City have 1 worker again now.
And change Mycenae to make Swordsman instead of Catapult.

@Doshin - A warrior would be upgraded to a spear build automatically on T94 with iron hookup.
We should probably just put the into the workboat we already started the more I think about it.

@Duckweed
I don't really want to produce more units in Thebes starting T94.
The galley2 is needed by Argos settler urgently and galley1 won't arrive until T99ish.
A 2-pop whipped unit from Thebes can walk onto the galley2 if it is 1E of Athens on T96 and step off it T97 into Athens before the galley moves.
But that slows down Fish City settler by 1 turn.

I did not check the timing of the galley. In that case, I'm OK with your choice.

What unit would we want whipped in Thebes on T95?

We can put off who produces the next workboat for Fish City until next turnset I think.

Could be a Phalanx if we could produce the 2nd Phalanx immediately or a cata.

Regarding the build in Argos, we could build wealth if nothing else is good.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Corinth uses the new GMine on T92 and T93.
If Corinth uses the Wheat for T95 and T96 only, then it can work RiverFarm T97.

Corinth will then top out at Size 4 on T98 working RiverGem,Gem,RiverFarm,GMine for 3 turns getting Library to be ready for a 2-pop whip. Then an Odeon for a turn.
Or it can just build a unit for 6 turns instead of library/odeon.

The shared mine is taken permanently by Sparta on T98.
Sparta too will be nearing happy cap limits around that timeframe.
Having an extra mine is useful in the short term and medium term and I think we need it.


If GP production isn't that urgent, I suppose Thebes could whip a unit.
Phalanx can wait until T100 to be dropped off in Athens.
It could stand on the island 3 turns, get on the galley1 T99, and walk into Athens T100.
I'll change the PPP for Thebes to Phalanx on T94.


I think Doshin's latest plan uses the 4 that Argos puts into the workboat.
So I'm happy to just build workboat in Argos between settlers.

Very nice progress!

Btw, who are we attacking first? If we're going after Will, how do we keep him alive to buy hints? On the other hand, if going for Shaka, do we want some axes for stack protection along with swords and catapults?

We are attacking Willem's Amsterdam first.
Willem has a 3rd city now somewhere and we can buy ceasefire between him and Shaka now if needed, so Willem is no longer in danger of being wiped out.
When we go for Shaka, having a few Phalanxes to stomp Impis will be useful ya.
So will chariots to kill axes, and spears to defend when he makes Horse Archers.
But for Willem, swords and catapults will be enough.

 

[Duckweed]

A GMine is 1F3H, a coastal tile is 2F2C, a riverside grassland is 2F1C.

If we consider 1F= 2H, 2C>1H, then a coastal tile is better than GMine, which is only slightly better than a riverside grassland.

Therefore, Sparta could work on a coastal tile when Corinth is taking the shared GMine. It's hard to say how much is a worker turn worth, but should be more than 5H if we think about 4 worker turns to chop a forest.

A GMine is good when the city is building a wonder or producing a worker/settler.

Regarding Argos build, I don't know whether the OF from previous settler could speedup the next settler and whether it's easy to control the WB build before it starts to wear off the hammers. It seems to me too much trouble of producing a WB there. The WB for South islands can be supplied by either capital or Fur city.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Corinth doesn't have a lighthouse, so its coastal tile is 1F2C.
Knowing all the benefits of its rivergrassland, I still want the GMine.
Corinth is happy capped.

Sparta is better off working the shared GMine T98+ than lake or coastal tile.
It too is happy capped.
Play Sparta out until Turn 98 and you will see what I mean.
The lake and coastal tile look unappealing at Size 4 with +3whip (27 turns).


If you guys want to give up on the 5/30 workboat in Argos, I can build Wealth I suppose.

 

[Duckweed]

Well, working on a GMine or a coastal tile really has little effect on controlling the happy cap especially in Sparta. Corinth still does not have Odeon, Monarchy should be available for trade soon. In the worst case, Athens could take back the Wheat. The reason why I mentioned coastal tile is that Sparta could let go of the GMine and works on coastal tile

Why Corinth could not 2 pop whip something and let OF to lib at size4? There's various ways to control the happy cap.

 

[Doshin]

GMine is fine. Happiness in Corinth, Athens and Sparta is very delicate before Monarchy and we won't switch into Monarchy until we have Civil Service. Athens will soon abandon the Corn and this is when Corinth quickly grows. The additional +2HPT in OF from building any Workers translates into +4H in a Library or Odeon.

I'd also like to complete the Work Boat in Argos, since I would prefer that the capital focus on infrastructure while Thebes has production problems of its own (no Library/Odeon, just 1HPT, bad unhappiness now).

The reason why I mentioned coastal tile is that Sparta could let go of the GMine and works on coastal tile

I think Kaitzilla has set this up to bring the Catapult to 50/50H on T92 and to complete a Sword with Odeon OF on T95.

But I agree that, for sure, the Lake and Coast are generally the better tiles in Sparta.

 

[Duckweed]

GMine is fine. Happiness in Corinth, Athens and Sparta is very delicate before Monarchy and we won't switch into Monarchy until we have Civil Service. Athens will soon abandon the Corn and this is when Corinth quickly grows. The additional +2HPT in OF from building any Workers translates into +4H in a Library or Odeon.

I'd also like to complete the Work Boat in Argos, since I would prefer that the capital focus on infrastructure while Thebes has production problems of its own (no Library/Odeon, just 1HPT, bad unhappiness now).


I think Kaitzilla has set this up to bring the Catapult to 50/50H on T92 and to complete a Sword with Odeon OF on T95.

But I agree that, for sure, the Lake and Coast are generally the better tiles in Sparta.

Corinth won't use the Gmine before T98 and it could take the shared mine as I mentioned. What Kaitzila did in Sparta was to work on the Gmine instead of the 3F2C lake tile at T98 to complete a sword. Sparta could complete a Phalanx instead of a sword as ~5 swords are enough. Athens should whip another settler soon to settle the south island.

It seems to me quite hard to complete a WB in Argos before the queued WB starts to decay. Moreover, that WB is too slow to be used for the south island as the southern galley is ready to pick a settler from Athens around T100.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Corinth does use the new GMine before T98 (T92 and T93 specifically)

Athens could indeed whip another settler T97.
Athens could then hog the wheat T98+ to regrow while Corinth uses RiverFarm+GMine at Size 4.
If Corinth 2-pop whips a library or odeon T98 (T99 would be much better), it stagnates without the wheat.

If Athens isn't going to whip another Settler, or won't be whipping a Settler until T102 or T103, then I'd be happy to whip Corinth again and forget the new GMine.
Corinth can keep the wheat to regrow.


Sparta on T98 with the shared GMine grows with +5 per turn.
With the lake at Size 5 T101, it grows with +6.

Sparta on T98 with Lake grows +7 per turn.
With coastal at Size 5 T101, it still grows +7 per turn.

The shared GMine is the only thing that slows Sparta's growth down a little to stretch out the 2-pop whips.


@Doshin - In Corinth, the 2-pop whip of worker T94 sets up the catapult to complete T96 with 4 overflow.

 

[Duckweed]

Is it beneficial to slow down the growth of Sparta 1 turn by working on a suboptimal tile? What's the problem to let Sparta grow into size6 and then whip down to size 4? The way of controlling the happy cap is either switching to HR (we should start to research to CS when the cash is enough AND Mansa does not choose CoL at that time) or producing a settler.

On Corinth Micro:

T92: a Gmine+a farm+2Gems
T93: whip worker immediately This also earns 1 worker turn.

Which results in 1~2 slower cata? Will this cata help the war in Amsterdam?

 

[Kaitzilla]

Is it beneficial to slow down the growth of Sparta 1 turn by working on a suboptimal tile? What's the problem to let Sparta grow into size6 and then whip down to size 4? The way of controlling the happy cap is either switching to HR (we should start to research to CS when the cash is enough AND Mansa does not choose CoL at that time) or producing a settler.

I think it is beneficial to slow down Sparta's growth a little.
Working lake and coastal tile all the time means issues around T103 and starting a settler around T105.
By growing slower using the shared GMine instead of lake, Sparta can keep making units and put off starting a settler for a few more turns while making more units.

On Corinth Micro:

T92: a Gmine+a farm+2Gems
T93: whip worker immediately This also earns 1 worker turn.

Which results in 1~2 slower cata? Will this cata help the war in Amsterdam?

Hmm, yes the cata is 1 turn slower. With this micro it produces T97.
The T96 catapult was 3 turns behind the main SoD, so I'm not sure if it would help capture Amsterdam or not. It would depend on walls or extra defenders.
1 extra worker turn for 1 turn slower catapult.