SGOTM 22 - Anti-TSR

[LowtherCastle]

Well, if we whip and then chop ASAP, we can get there to load T114, unload T115.
And we can even beat that by 1 turn if we use 2 workers to chop.
But we can't get units there that fast unless they are chariots. I'm scared to hear what you're planning

I just realized Pollina has T123 Baghdad attack plans. I was mis-remembering that as Mecca. What I'm "planning" (not easy without the save) is how to use a galley chain to use units that arrive at the chain as late as T121 for T122 landing and T123 attack, on Mecca.

Seems like maybe we can have as many as 4 galleys able to land units on T122, so the question is how many praets/cats can arrive at FC at or before T121.

~~~

Now that you bring up chariots, that brings up an interesting alternative. We could think in terms of more cats, fewer prats, and use chariots as red-line kill units. Food for thought.

 

[WastinTime]

New idea to get more units (sacrifice boats). I don't want to have 250h sitting the water this early. Looking for more attackers...

Army
3 galleys
10 units! (2 chariot, 8 preats and/or cats)

We can attack with 10 units on DoW+1:
T122 w/ 4 amphibious
or T123 w/ 2 amphibious.

- 2 chariots (briefly on galley) and 2 Preats-on-galley head over early.

- Then our 3 galleys bring 6 more preat/cats

Units come from: Bovino-1, FC-3, Rome-2, HC-2 (with XP)

 

[WastinTime]

Seems like maybe we can have as many as 4 galleys able to land units on T122, so the question is how many praets/cats can arrive at FC at or before T121.

I don't think you've thought this thru. or I'm misunderstanding you.
Sure, We can get 2 units at FC T121 landing T122, with 4 boats, but then we only have 2 total units landing. The rest of the boats are empty and trailing in the chain.

Some day, we can have a 4 boat chain and 2 or 3 more to unload an army....but that's 6+ boats.

 

[WastinTime]

We may not need to build any archers or chariots for Rome.

We can continue to build our Catoreans and have 4 of them in Rome for the capture(with the 8 chariots), then move out.

 

[WastinTime]

Another thing we forgot about...or at least now's the time to think about.
A healer

We have a 3/5 chariot. We've got to get him 2 more XP. Maybe just 1 XP on the way over and 1 XP doing cleanup on the attack.
Backup plan is one of our 3xp Praets gains 2xp.

 

[Pollina]

New idea to get more units (sacrifice boats). I don't want to have 250h sitting the water this early. Looking for more attackers...

Army
3 galleys
10 units! (2 chariot, 8 preats and/or cats)

We can attack with 10 units on DoW+1:
T122 w/ 4 amphibious
or T123 w/ 2 amphibious.

- 2 chariots (briefly on galley) and 2 Preats-on-galley head over early.

- Then our 3 galleys bring 6 more preat/cats

Units come from: Bovino-1, FC-3, Rome-2, HC-2 (with XP)

Will your 10 units plan still work if Baghdad pops borders until then?

Baghdad was settled ibt t67/68 with instant monument from SH. That's 53 until t121. It also has Hinduism. We don't know when it spread there, but we know that Sal was running a missionary strategy around the time when Baghdad was settled, as (s)he sent missionaries our way. Baghdad had Hindu on t90(?) when we dicovered it with our workboat. That's 84 on t121 at the very least. Let Baghdad finish a temple, monastery, madrassa and it will easily pop borders until we DoW. Same in case Sal managed to spread Hindu there until t74.

 

[WastinTime]

Will your 10 units plan still work if Baghdad pops borders until then?
.

yea. been expecting 40% borders. Now if Narjan pops it's a different story.

 

[Pollina]

I must be missing something.

How do you move the galleys to unload near Baghdad and load the amphibian attackers from B-4E1S, all on DoW+0? B-2S2E would have Arabian culture (right?), so we won't be able to move our galleys from there.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Big Picture
I don't buy Aesthetics wonders being our Critical Path. Not even close. I think our Critical Path is: 1) Free Rome to build wonders, 2) Conquer AIs while Rome builds wonders. If we don't get clamps on these AIs, Space might be faster than Conquest, and we'll be wishing we had managed to build the Sistine Chapel in Rome. The Aesthetics wonders are on the Nice-to-Have Path.

Free Rome to build wonders:
1. Capture 1) Mecca, then 2) Damascus. We gift IC+capture Damascus when Mecca comes out of resistance+2.
2. Build Parthenon, if possible.
3. Maybe capture Baghdad, raze Najran (for gold tile).
4. Move on to Zara, gradually building up to a stack of 15+ cats so we couldn't care less about lbms. Damascus can chop them and will expand borders in 5t.

We absolutely need better cities to enable Rome to build wonders non-stop. Baghdad is relative crap, iirc. It's primary function is gold for Paya. It's too far from any AI to gift away, so it's a future ball and chain. We can land units at Mecca-NW almost as soon as Baghdad, iirc. BSP designed this mess to make Mecca extremely hard to capture by land. By the time your army gets there, Mecca has 6 defenders. Instead, we slam-dunk it by sea.

 

[LowtherCastle]

So, I think we should look at how to capture Mecca asap, including how to build units in Rome for that purpose. I will be able to open the save later today and contribute more concretely.

 

[WastinTime]

I must be missing something.

How do you move the galleys to unload near Baghdad and load the amphibian attackers from B-4E1S, all on DoW+0? B-2S2E would have Arabian culture (right?), so we won't be able to move our galleys from there.

You're right. I forgot about the water tile gaining culture. Sounds like we're going after Mecca anyway. Seems wise. I agree Baghdad is not a need-to-have city. Although, this early, we need big, free cities, so we may have to keep it and whip out a dozen boats or something. Eventually, we can gift it away to an AI we beat down to 1 city. or we can gift it back to Sal. What is the rule that determines if we can raze it the 2nd capture?

 

[Pollina]

What's a realistic estimate for how many units we need for Mecca? 5 galleys, 10 praets?

Quick test shows we need a bit less than 2.5 praets per fortified CG2 archer (hill, 60% culture defense), a bit more than 2.5 per CG3 archer, ~3 per C1 axe or sword. 4-5 per longbow.

 

[WastinTime]

We can land units at Mecca-NW almost as soon as Baghdad, iirc.

Mecca NW crosses a river.
It's also a lot farther if you plan to bring reinforcements from Darius's tiles NE of Mecca.
We also can't get chariots to join in the attack.
Looking forward to your Mecca plan. If we do it, I see us at Mecca-SW. It adds 2 turns to the trip, but the real problem is we go from 10 units to 6, so we'd have to up the boats to 4 or 5.

 

[WastinTime]

Couldn't there be 4 lbs in Mecca by then?

 

[WastinTime]

Big Picture
I don't buy Aesthetics wonders being our Critical Path. Not even close. I think our Critical Path is: 1) Free Rome to build wonders, 2) Conquer AIs while Rome builds wonders.

You forgot:
3) support an army of 100 units AND cities with huge distance costs while teching something before the AI does that gives us a wonder. Nationalism/Taj? Possibly DivRight, but the AI will go for that before we will. Democracy? (requires a half dozen pre-reqs) Getting to 7 will be torture. I want to free us of most of this burden. If we let the AI get Aes, one of them will race to Music. Then we easily lose GLib and Sistine. By getting Music 1st we at least buy some time on Sistine and it might prevent the AI from doing Literature.

I can understand the desire to get an army rolling. Maybe there is a compromise. Rome can try to put out more than 2 units. Each extra unit delays the Parthenon by 2 turns. But that also delays Paya/Zeus.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Setting barb archer at UNITAI_EXPLORE, he moves on to iron tile without hesitation. Not sure which UNITAI to test or if it makes any difference.

 

[WastinTime]

"Got it!"

I think I can play a couple turns without ruining anyone's plans as long as we're ok with Rax in HC. I think I want one in FC too, but that decision can be delayed. FC can build a Rax with 25% bonus soon, so only 40h...that's just one dead spy

If you have anything to say about the next 2 turns, speak up quickly or tell me to hold.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Mecca provides gold from the Shrine, in addition to its 450,000,000 coins per turn.

I see your point about the wonders, though. If we were to get the 3 Aes + GLib, then we're already have 5. That would be killer.

Maybe we pursue your plan for Parthenon in Rome, WT. Get some unit over to Sal (Woodie?) so we can spy into Mecca, mobilize in some sensible fashion, build our galley chain, and go down on Mecca when we're strong enough, even if that means a whopping SoD against lbs?

I don't have any problem with 1000h into galleys. They'll all pay off.

 

[LowtherCastle]

"Got it!"

I think I can play a couple turns without ruining anyone's plans as long as we're ok with Rax in HC. I think I want one in FC too, but that decision can be delayed. FC can build a Rax with 25% bonus soon, so only 40h...that's just one dead spy

If you have anything to say about the next 2 turns, speak up quickly or tell me to hold.

Shouldn't Bovina 1chop the granary?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Also, what tile are you planning to grow FC to pop5 on? I was building that mine so we could use it.