SGOTM 22 - Xteam

[Jersey Joe]

I believe 1N has a 2-commerce wine tile going for it and lots of forested hills.

With regards to knowing Bronze Working. From the pregame discussion thread:
Originally Posted by enKage "Once you discover Bronze Working or Iron Working, warriors and scouts won't count towards this any more." Does it apply also if no copper/iron is connected (or even can we connect and trade copper away?) Do explorer count into military protection if preBW scout does?

Yep. Connecting metal or not isn't the deciding factor. Knowing the tech is. Good point about explorers, didn't think about them. Actually I don't think it matters too much, so OK, they count

The site 1N has as many forested hills (4) as SIP and you swap a river gold hill for a non-gold hill and the river wine. SIP gives more hills to mine without needing BW.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry CP, I thought all those hills were great as well until i started testing. I used SIP to contrast with coast because it had 4 unforested hills to mine where 1N had just 1.

The rule is unambiguous: Once BW or IW is discovered then warriors no longer count towards the military presence. Therefore BW must wait until after city 2 or 3 is founded, and unforested hills which can be mined offered the greatest contrast in testing. This was the cause of the slight difference in testing as the coastal site was not working as many improved tiles and GW took longer.

So, I tried a few different tech orders but AH first always was best, if we have horses we dont need Great Wall for barb protection, but we might want it anyway for convenience and as our first of 7 wonders.

Edit: x-post with Joe

 

[Ronnie1]

Thinking about it some more, I might treat the early part of the game especially like a 1 city challenge game. It occurs like one of the objectives is to slow down the traditional early REX, so, maybe don't fight that idea too hard early on.

 

[Jersey Joe]

Besides the tile neil fixed, I noticed a few other terrain features that need to be fixed in the test game file I created. Also, added the No tech trading or brokering options, guessed at some features in the first row of surrounding fog and made it BUFFY loadable.

Here is the updated file:

 

[neilmeister]

Thanks Joe, I will use this new save.

Agree about the OCC aspect, but we need a minimum of a few cities to have a good core.

Expanding to 3 cities should not be too difficult with the rules. To build city 2 we simply need 1 building and to move all 4 of our warriors to the capital.
City 3 requires just 2 more warriors and either a Monument or Granary.

The capital has a lot of wonders to build and cities 2 & 3 can build the military units we will need for city 4 (we need 8 archers/chariots/axes/spears!) assuming we research BW, but this does not need to occur immediately.

Something else I realised in the test game is that the warriors cannot be allowed to die defending against animals, as they are essential to settle city 2 (and maybe 3), so we should leave them inside our walls.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for straightening me out. Guess I assumed the logic and ignored the letter of the law.

Expect Neil's also correct about the advantage of unforested hills from settling in place.

About ready to move warriors?

 

[leif erikson]

The rule is unambiguous: Once BW or IW is discovered then warriors no longer count towards the military presence.

So, I guess that Copper will be provided to us so we can build said Axes and Spears? Otherwise, Archer is now a pre-requisite to Bronze Working so we can build Archers if the Copper is not available to us?

 

[neilmeister]

I will move warriors in about 3 hours when I get home.

I think we can expect to get either Copper or Horses, probably in the original BFC. Otherwise making everyone survive Raging Barbs and have all those units just to expand might be a bit harsh.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I will move warriors in about 3 hours when I get home.

I think we can expect to get either Copper or Horses, probably in the original BFC. Otherwise making everyone survive Raging Barbs and have all those units just to expand might be a bit harsh.

Didn't BSP mention something about wanting to see us lose a bit of blood?

 

[neilmeister]

Well, we hit the mother load.

Spoiler :

Fish on the coast, elephants to the north. City on the blue circle will have: Pigs, Fish and 5 grass hills

We also met Saladin on t1, so he is very close to our south.

Spoiler :

Here is the demographics screen.... looks very interesting. There were no cities pre-built as all values were 1 on t0. But there must be pre-improvements as one AI has 7 fpt, aother has 4 hpt.

Spoiler :

 

[leif erikson]

Any doubt where we settle the capital?

 

[Jersey Joe]

Why is it that our warrior in the north standing on a hill has not revealed more tiles?
I was adjusting the test game and when I move him to the hill I see another row of tiles.
I adjusted the view in the north as best I could just world builder tools.

Here is a test game updated for neil's moves and I changed Gilgamesh to Saladin.

The reason for the quick update, is I am wondering if strategically we should not move the settler 1SE and settle, thereby using our borders to potentially block Saladin from expanding north and giving us time to settle an additional city or 2.

 

[BSPollux]

I love watching you.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Ronnie1]

The warrior does not reveal more because of the jungles.

I am not overly worried about blocking in Sal. We don't really want to move towards the tundra anyway.

We have to settle the Fish and Pig imo given the scenario requirements.

 

[Cactus Pete]

No doubt about where to settle the capital.

Regarding build plan: Question whether there are enough hammers available to build a fishing boat early, so suggest starting with a worker (and researching AH, of course).

How many turns before animals show up?

 

[neilmeister]

From memory from the testin we get AH about 4t before the worker, I was going for Masonry and getting it when we had relatively few hammers in WB and immediately switched to Great Wall, though this left the worker with little to do. I will try AH>Wheel>Masonry and Worker>WB>Great Wall

Animals are hardcoded to start spawning on t5, regardless of the game speed. The warriors will need to move back to the cap, we will need to take a risk however and explore with them to the west and north before we settle city2 however. We already know about east and Saladin & tundra are south.

I will move the settler and settle as this will allow testing with more map knowledge, there is little doubt about where we settle.

 

[Jersey Joe]

I ran a fast test of settling on the blue circle for the fish and pigs.
I figure the warrior in the north must be at the edge of the world so I just moved him back to our newly founded capital. I explored for maybe 1 - 2 more turns with the othere warriors then brought them all back to the capital.
I teched AH started masonry and was still had a few turns to go when worker finished. Started on work boat and switched to GW when masonry finished.
Worker had just finished pasture on pigs when I saw lions. The lions showed a few times but never entered out borders. A barbarian entered our borders but was on the south side of the river so I did not attach it. GW finish and warrior was moved out of our borders. It them took me 3 turns to build a work boat (the work boat had lost the 8 hammers it had (4 overflow from worker) because of decay.
I did not give any thought to the order I should study things while building the GW
So I built sailing-> wheel->pottery->agricultrue
I also built a granary followed by a lighthouse before starting on a settler.

 

[neilmeister]

Yes, i had the same issue with hammer decay if we immediately switch to Great Wall.
I feel a settler after both Great Wall and WB would be best, allows city 2 to get started much sooner. We also have 4 forested hills that we would like to mine but if we get BW our 4 warriors cannot be used as the 4 units we need to be allowed to settle city 2.

Also, animals cannot enter borders.

Edit: i also forgot that at Monarch we get several free victories over barbs (i will look up exactly how many), so we should probably save these for just in case barbs enter during building the Wall, as happened to Joe

 

[neilmeister]

Nothing extra revealed except for dry plains corn to the east

 

[Jersey Joe]

Just did a second test of settle on blue circle. Had GW and founded second city at 1560BC. Second city was on far eastern river wines.

Went AH->Masonary->Wheel->Archery->Pottery->Sailing->Mysticism

After Worker finished, I built a warrior which I finished before starting on GW. Had to defend against 3 barbarian warrior attacks before GW was finished.

Rational for building the warrior was that I left 1 warrior out on a hill by the river wine to fog bust (he was never disturbed). Right after founding the second city, we need a third building (lighthouse, monument, granary are available) plus 7 turns to build a settler and either 4 turns to build 2 warriors, or 6 turns to build 2 archers.