Have you tested with and without archery next?
SGOTM 22 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
There wasn't any options, I was sorry I didn't pause the save before upload 
Yeah, after a few bears I decided to send the warriors home. The cows are probably a little far for a second city, need to test though.
If the south is just a dead end, then the scouts would be north of us by the time barbs start spawning... any way, thats my best guess as to why they were all there.
No testing with Archery yet, as we wont be building an Archer for ages.... unless we lose GW of course!
Yeah, after a few bears I decided to send the warriors home. The cows are probably a little far for a second city, need to test though.
If the south is just a dead end, then the scouts would be north of us by the time barbs start spawning... any way, thats my best guess as to why they were all there.
No testing with Archery yet, as we wont be building an Archer for ages.... unless we lose GW of course!
Ronnie1
Deity
Carry on!
I revised to test game to include the actual ai's with us meeting them on the turns neil said we did. Also, Saladin founded Hinduism though it was in 3560bc instead of the actual 3600bc and Brennus founded Buddhism in 3240bc instead of the actual 3480bc.
3 or our 4 warriors have 1xp as in the actual game. Only problem I had was that I was 1 turn away from learning AH in 2920bc so I used world builder to give it to me and we have started learning the wheel.
I fixed fog of war to match neil's, though I might have missed a square or 2.
Note: I deleted the attached file, because I fixed a few tiles in posted the revised file in a message below.
3 or our 4 warriors have 1xp as in the actual game. Only problem I had was that I was 1 turn away from learning AH in 2920bc so I used world builder to give it to me and we have started learning the wheel.
I fixed fog of war to match neil's, though I might have missed a square or 2.
Note: I deleted the attached file, because I fixed a few tiles in posted the revised file in a message below.
Thanks Joe, I will try some combinations of micro testing as we discovered AH several turns earlier than we were expecting (bonus from knowing all those AI with Agr), and we also had a forest grow giving our Cap a 2F1H tile which it didn't have before.
Looking at the Culture & Power graphs, 3 of the other teams settled on t0, researched AH and started workers. Only FE didn't do this and they settled t1, we settled t2.
So I suspect we are the only team with the fish. With a lighthouse the fish gives us as much surplus food as 4 farms, so it is clearly a big advantage in a game where the size of the capital controls how many cities we can have. I suspect that we have effectively settled where most teams will put there city 2, and after thinking about it a bit I think we might want to have our city 2 being able to share the pigs.... but this is testing for the future, not the rest of my set
Looking at the Culture & Power graphs, 3 of the other teams settled on t0, researched AH and started workers. Only FE didn't do this and they settled t1, we settled t2.
So I suspect we are the only team with the fish. With a lighthouse the fish gives us as much surplus food as 4 farms, so it is clearly a big advantage in a game where the size of the capital controls how many cities we can have. I suspect that we have effectively settled where most teams will put there city 2, and after thinking about it a bit I think we might want to have our city 2 being able to share the pigs.... but this is testing for the future, not the rest of my set
I fixed 2 resources I had wrong (changed 2 silk to 2 sugar) and added fish resource in cold south that was missing.
Other differences which will be very difficult to fix are in the real game:
- there are 12 f in storage, not 12
- there are 7 h in GW already, not 0
- there is 1t of mine started on that hill.
- there is a big beaker overflow into Wheel.
- there is a new grass forest SE of the city
- there are 12 f in storage, not 12
- there are 7 h in GW already, not 0
- there is 1t of mine started on that hill.
- there is a big beaker overflow into Wheel.
- there is a new grass forest SE of the city
I have tried a few different ways, and I like going Wheel->Pottery as this times very well with the worker finishing the mine & pig road. He can then immediately build 2 cottages (which we will not use immediately of course). Our big advantage is food, we do not need as many farms to grow so we can work more cottages. After 2 cottages the worker roads to city, with extra cover from expanded borders and a fogbusting warrior.
After that, Archery might be best simply so we are ready to build an Archer the turn we finish the Settler. (we will need to send a warrior to where we want to settle to fogbust and make sure the settler and worker survive). Building an Archer now is sensible as soon the Warriors won't count to the MP's we need in the Cap to found new cities.
Then.... its the big question. Do we research BW before settling city 3?
Pro's : we get Copper
and we can chop and mine like crazy, we need only 2 more Acrhers/Warriors and a building (Granary) to found city 3
Con's : no founding city 3 until we have 6 archers/axes/spears and another building
We can of course chop out a lot of units, but they will start costing us in maintenance. 6 Archers & 4 Warriors cost 2 gpt in unit maintenance, even with 3 cities built.
Here is a thought bubble about where we could settle. The red or yellow tiles with the units on them. The other red & yellow dots are just me trying to see how another city would fit with them
Both dots share the pigs, which the capital could borrow back when it needs to grow so we can settle a new city. All cities are on the rivers, as the health bonus looks like it will be important (we can not see many bonuses)
After that, Archery might be best simply so we are ready to build an Archer the turn we finish the Settler. (we will need to send a warrior to where we want to settle to fogbust and make sure the settler and worker survive). Building an Archer now is sensible as soon the Warriors won't count to the MP's we need in the Cap to found new cities.
Then.... its the big question. Do we research BW before settling city 3?
Pro's : we get Copper
and we can chop and mine like crazy, we need only 2 more Acrhers/Warriors and a building (Granary) to found city 3Con's : no founding city 3 until we have 6 archers/axes/spears and another building
We can of course chop out a lot of units, but they will start costing us in maintenance. 6 Archers & 4 Warriors cost 2 gpt in unit maintenance, even with 3 cities built.
Here is a thought bubble about where we could settle. The red or yellow tiles with the units on them. The other red & yellow dots are just me trying to see how another city would fit with them
Both dots share the pigs, which the capital could borrow back when it needs to grow so we can settle a new city. All cities are on the rivers, as the health bonus looks like it will be important (we can not see many bonuses)
Spoiler :
Neil, Thank you for comparing the test to the real game
That's what I get for spending more time managing the AI's than I did our build.
I missed the grass forest because I did not look for changes in known territory and only concentrated on newly explored areas of the map.
I think most of those items can be fixed if I start with the autosave from 3200bc. Getting the correct food might be the biggest problem. While I am at it I will even rename our capital.
For a third city I like the yellow spot north of our capital, it gets sugar, ivory and bananas and might be getting us closer to the AIs. Also, consider the spot 2e 1s of the yellow circle at the river bend where the barbarian is. That spot gets 2 bananas, ivory and sugar. Also, I like the white spot getting the cow.I have tried a few different ways, and I like going Wheel->Pottery as this times very well with the worker finishing the mine & pig road. He can then immediately build 2 cottages (which we will not use immediately of course). Our big advantage is food, we do not need as many farms to grow so we can work more cottages. After 2 cottages the worker roads to city, with extra cover from expanded borders and a fogbusting warrior.
After that, Archery might be best simply so we are ready to build an Archer the turn we finish the Settler. (we will need to send a warrior to where we want to settle to fogbust and make sure the settler and worker survive). Building an Archer now is sensible as soon the Warriors won't count to the MP's we need in the Cap to found new cities.
Then.... its the big question. Do we research BW before settling city 3?
Pro's : we get Copper
Con's : no founding city 3 until we have 6 archers/axes/spears and another building
We can of course chop out a lot of units, but they will start costing us in maintenance. 6 Archers & 4 Warriors cost 2 gpt in unit maintenance, even with 3 cities built.
Here is a thought bubble about where we could settle. The red or yellow tiles with the units on them. The other red & yellow dots are just me trying to see how another city would fit with them
Both dots share the pigs, which the capital could borrow back when it needs to grow so we can settle a new city. All cities are on the rivers, as the health bonus looks like it will be important (we can not see many bonuses)
Spoiler :
In 2 test games, I had been settling in between the horses and the carbs. I lost a worker guarded by 1 warrior to a panther and since then I use 2 warriors as bodyguards and build 2 archers while settler moves.
In my last 2 test games I researched Pottery->Writing->Archery->BW (stopped 1 turn away from learning) and switched to Mysticism->Sailing while building a third building and a few more archers and keep the city at size 5 by starving them for more hammers when I get close to size 6.
I think we have to research BW before our third city. Food is our big advantage, then whipping what we need is an efficient way to use that food. BW puts the whip in our hand as well as showing us where our third city may need to be placed.
Given the above, then Archer is certainly needed. It will also be our fall back should we lose GW.
Think we should hold on where a third city may go until we know where Copper is, if it shows at all...
To found cities up north of the capital, we will also need Iron Working to chop the jungle. Agree that we want the Ivory, War Elephants and Cats are really nice together.
"I think we have to research BW before our third city. Food is our big advantage, then whipping what we need is an efficient way to use that food. BW puts the whip in our hand as well as showing us where our third city may need to be placed." And our portion of the map is filled with forests.
I also think that Monarchy is definitely in our near future. Those city spots in the jungle aren't my immediate settling preference, I was just trying to see how different settling options would effect 'jungle' cities. If we settle on the hill (red dot) we do not get the bananas, so the northern red dot city should get the bananas.... but this is not the decision that needs to be made now or my turnset, which is focusing on finishing GW & what we research!
Sorry, just realised I totally messed up the Pro's and Con's before of BW, but I think that is probably obvious. Second half of the 'Pros' is only if we don't get BW.
I also agree Archery should occur early, but probably after Pottery so our worker can cottage a few tiles, before he goes with settler 2. Archery will come before the settler is finished.
We have so many forests and forested hills that delaying BW beyond city 2 now seems a little foolish.
Therefore, how about Wheel->Pottery->Archery->BW (which will finish after we settle)
Sorry, just realised I totally messed up the Pro's and Con's before of BW, but I think that is probably obvious. Second half of the 'Pros' is only if we don't get BW.
I also agree Archery should occur early, but probably after Pottery so our worker can cottage a few tiles, before he goes with settler 2. Archery will come before the settler is finished.
We have so many forests and forested hills that delaying BW beyond city 2 now seems a little foolish.
Therefore, how about Wheel->Pottery->Archery->BW (which will finish after we settle)
Think that should work fine.
Concur.
Ronnie1
Deity
That seems like the best option!
No other line makes any sense at all.
Wheel keeps our worker working.
Only question now is where to put city 2?
No other line makes any sense at all.
Wheel keeps our worker working.
Only question now is where to put city 2?
I adjusted the test file based on Neil's comments.
The first test file as of 2920bc still has 2 problems:
14 food in storage not the actual 12 and only 1 beaker overflow into wheel.
The second test file as of 2800bc fixes the food problem if you are working both the fish and pigs during 2920bc and 2960bc. Also it increases the beakers spent on the wheel so the overflow into pottery is 12 beakers not the 6 you get without the adjustment.
The first test file as of 2920bc still has 2 problems:
14 food in storage not the actual 12 and only 1 beaker overflow into wheel.
The second test file as of 2800bc fixes the food problem if you are working both the fish and pigs during 2920bc and 2960bc. Also it increases the beakers spent on the wheel so the overflow into pottery is 12 beakers not the 6 you get without the adjustment.
I tried settling to get the horses and crabs.
Tech: wheel->pottery->writing->archery->BW
build settler->archer-archer->????
Archery is finished just before settler. I need 2 archers since 2 warriors are guarding the worker and settler. After finishing roading pigs and mine the worker starts roading out to the site of the horse city. So when settler is done he travels 6-7 tiles via road and joins the worker and warriors as they finish roading to the city site (giving second archer time to be built).
I will play (up to finishing GW) later today if there are no objections.....
A city by the Crabs & Horses might be a bit far, we could have issues keeping it connected and the maintenance might be a bit high, it will have a hammer problem I think, with horses being the only real source (no hills). Once workshops get a few bonuses this city would be fantastic.
Some more settling options:
1) 2N1E of Pigs
This city can be founded in 1840bc without any unit ever staying outside our empire, therefore we don't need to build any Archers to found it and we can build GW->Settler->Worker. (We could found it 1880bc, but our current worker would need to spend 2t roading the tile 2N1E of pigs outside our borders so the settler can move & settle 1880, wasting 2t of worker actions and with some small risk)
Until we have a method of controlling the unhappiness we can't use all the food we have effectively, so why not share it. Cap can work 2 cottages instead of the pigs.
It looks close to the Cap, but it only shares 2 tiles: Pigs & Wine. City 2 can give up the Pigs whenever Caput Mundi needs to grow fast. It has bananas, 2 grass wine, plenty of hills and lots of riverside grass. This city gets off to a very strong start with Pigs and will grow in 4t, by which time the farm is finished and the worker is starting to mine the GH.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->BW, BW has to be slowed by 1t so it doesn't get researched before we settle.
2) 1W of Corn
Founded in 1720bc, we only need 1 Warrior to fogbust this while our settler is on route... it has dry plains corn, horses, plains wine, 3 riverside GH and a few more hills/forests. The big drawback to this city is the corn is the only tile that will have a food surplus, and only 2. So this city will struggle to ever grow past 4.... it will have decent hammers and less maintenance than the other horse option, but thats all it has going for it.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Writing->BW as otherwise BW comes in to early.
3) Gems & Deer
Also founded in 1720bc, we only need 1 Warrior to fogbust this while our settler is on route... it has Gems, Deer, 2 river grass and 1 GH. It will be connected 2t after settling, and it will allow a horses city to be connected as well (with sailing). The Gems will help with happiness issues obviously, but we must build an Archer, slowing the next worker, and of the course the city starts with no improved tiles. The worker will finish camping the deer 7t after settling.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Writing->BW as otherwise BW comes in to early.
I have a preference for 1, simply because it is founded sooner and hits the ground running with the Pigs. When we have resolved our happiness limits (with monarchy probably) Caput Mundi can take back the pigs as this city also has other weaker food options that will online later (bananas & 2 grass wine). This city is also the only 'risk-free' city option, as there is no danger of losing any units.
The Gems city is also a good candidate, as this city is a must for those gems, at no stage will we ever regret building it.
A city by the Crabs & Horses might be a bit far, we could have issues keeping it connected and the maintenance might be a bit high, it will have a hammer problem I think, with horses being the only real source (no hills). Once workshops get a few bonuses this city would be fantastic.
Some more settling options:
1) 2N1E of Pigs
This city can be founded in 1840bc without any unit ever staying outside our empire, therefore we don't need to build any Archers to found it and we can build GW->Settler->Worker. (We could found it 1880bc, but our current worker would need to spend 2t roading the tile 2N1E of pigs outside our borders so the settler can move & settle 1880, wasting 2t of worker actions and with some small risk)
Until we have a method of controlling the unhappiness we can't use all the food we have effectively, so why not share it. Cap can work 2 cottages instead of the pigs.
It looks close to the Cap, but it only shares 2 tiles: Pigs & Wine. City 2 can give up the Pigs whenever Caput Mundi needs to grow fast. It has bananas, 2 grass wine, plenty of hills and lots of riverside grass. This city gets off to a very strong start with Pigs and will grow in 4t, by which time the farm is finished and the worker is starting to mine the GH.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->BW, BW has to be slowed by 1t so it doesn't get researched before we settle.
2) 1W of Corn
Founded in 1720bc, we only need 1 Warrior to fogbust this while our settler is on route... it has dry plains corn, horses, plains wine, 3 riverside GH and a few more hills/forests. The big drawback to this city is the corn is the only tile that will have a food surplus, and only 2. So this city will struggle to ever grow past 4.... it will have decent hammers and less maintenance than the other horse option, but thats all it has going for it.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Writing->BW as otherwise BW comes in to early.
3) Gems & Deer
Also founded in 1720bc, we only need 1 Warrior to fogbust this while our settler is on route... it has Gems, Deer, 2 river grass and 1 GH. It will be connected 2t after settling, and it will allow a horses city to be connected as well (with sailing). The Gems will help with happiness issues obviously, but we must build an Archer, slowing the next worker, and of the course the city starts with no improved tiles. The worker will finish camping the deer 7t after settling.
Wheel->Pottery->Archery->Writing->BW as otherwise BW comes in to early.
I have a preference for 1, simply because it is founded sooner and hits the ground running with the Pigs. When we have resolved our happiness limits (with monarchy probably) Caput Mundi can take back the pigs as this city also has other weaker food options that will online later (bananas & 2 grass wine). This city is also the only 'risk-free' city option, as there is no danger of losing any units.
The Gems city is also a good candidate, as this city is a must for those gems, at no stage will we ever regret building it.
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