SGOTM 23 - Turbo Ants

[Mitchum]

btw, Pollina, superb research on this! Knowing she won't switch to slavery with 1 city. That is deep knowledge of the game mechanics.

I'm sorry. I attributed that work to LC. I should have known better. [emoji38]

Nice work, Pollina!!

 

[Mitchum]

Ah. I get it. War 1 conditionally ignores Thebes altogether. That does indeed ease the constraints. Technically we don't need Rep until we need the happies or want to run scientists. Nerfs Alexa by 13.5 bpt.

I thought this was the plan all along. Two separate wars, two separate city captures, CF in between... I thought we were just debating which city to take in the first war.

 

[Mitchum]

We will also get visibility on her cities in 4t If We Gather eps for stealing. Will be able to see exactly how many gpp's she has

Good point. Let's do this since we'll need the EPs anyways.

 

[WastinTime]

Hatty should also switch into organized religion one of these days which would prevent her from taking on slavery. We could speed it along by giving her poly. Assuming we're getting poly from Gandhi but we wouldn't have to if that causes relationship problems

 

[Pollina]

Summary of Key Actions

Pre-DoW
1. Build 2-3 galleys + 4-6 HAs + 1-2 spies + Conditional: Hagift/Fredburg units(1-2 chariots?).
2. Collect eps to steal Math.
3. Conditional: Capture Fredburg and gift to Hatty.
4. Gift Hagift with 50% spy.
5. Steal Math (knock on wood).
6. Conditional: Gift worker in Hagift.
7. Move units into place.

Philosopy
1. Gift Hatty Alpha
2. Conditional: Revolt Hatty to Slavery

DoW
1. Capture Hagift.
2. Conditional: CF, capture Fredburg and gift to Hatty. Re-DoW.
3. Capture Thebes or Alexa.
4. Conditional: CF, capture Fredburg and gift to Hatty. Re-DoW.
5. Capture Alexa or Thebes.

Have I missed anything crucial?

On the turn before DoW at the latest, Jesus needs to spread Christianity in Hagift for the 50% culture mod.

 

[Pollina]

Hatty should also switch into organized religion one of these days which would prevent her from taking on slavery. We could speed it along by giving her poly. Assuming we're getting poly from Gandhi but we wouldn't have to if that causes relationship problems

Hatty was already running OR when we met her.

Do we want to trade for Mono before we become her WE?

 

[ZPV]

I thought AI civic bribes were broken and you couldn't do them if the leader's XML said Pleased or better.

EDIT: In any case, this is quite complex, and I think I'd favour a K.I.S.S. approach even if it's slightly worse.

 

[Pollina]

Hatty can be bribed into a civic at pleased. I've done it many times in AP games.

 

[WastinTime]

Well that was easy. of course we don't give Hattie Alpha this turn. We get poly from Gandhi and then get mono next turn. For some reason I didn't think she had poly or mono. I suppose she won't trade it as a monopoly

 

[Pollina]

We need Masonry for Mono. That's why I was asking. If we want Mono from Hatty, we need to grab Masonry soon-ish.

 

[WastinTime]

Okay we have until turn 68 to get Masonry so that we can trade Alpha for mono on 69. Can we tell if the Great Wall is being finished soon. I assume that will open up masonry trade

 

[LowtherCastle]

Conclusions
1. Alexa needs at least 4 extra sci turns by T71 or we have to revolt Hatty to Slavery by T70.
2. If Thebes starts working 5 artists on T64, we have to revolt her to Slavery by T69, unless Alexa gets 9 extra sci turns by T69.
3. To revolt Hatty, we have to gift Hatty Alpha before she puts enough beakers into it to prevent +2 plusmods from the gift, and we have to trade HBR for Slavery before she has enough beakers in HBR to prevent the trade.
4. The Alpha for Mono trade also has to yield +2 plusmods if we're going to revolt Hatty to Slavery.

.

 

[WastinTime]

so, what needs to be answered to start play? Sounds like we're not doing Hatty tech or slavery just yet. Let's roll forward a bit. Could save us a lot of 'what if' analysis.

 

[LowtherCastle]

so, what needs to be answered to start play? Sounds like we're not doing Hatty tech or slavery just yet. Let's roll forward a bit. Could save us a lot of 'what if' analysis.

MM already varies this turn. Here's a question for you. Let's make the most realistic assumption that Alexa will work 0-4 extra sci by T71 and Hatty at least 1 extra. That means we have to revolt Hatty to Slavery to get the Philo bulb. What do you want to do in that case? You say, I'll work out the best MM I can we'll move forward.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Why the above assumption?

Spoiler :

1. Thebes has a granary, Alexa does not.
2. Alexa is at -1fpt with 2sci which we're assuming happened several turns recently. +2fpt with 1sci, which happened 1t. +5fpt with 0 sci, which happened a couple time. Alexa needs roughly 23f for pop4, right?
3. Hatty just completed the 2nd and 3rd Alexa cottages, and started working them. The workers were mining and roading 2 Thebes hills before that, stone and horses before that.
4. Assume Thebes just completed the granary on T55. At +3fpt, needing roughly 30f(?) for pop8, that could take about 10t, or T65. At pop8 she could choose to work another artist at +1fpt.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Moot anyway. I don't see how to get 4 HAs on 2 galleys that can attack amphibiously T70 and also have even a 40% spy ready on T70. I can do T71. 30% is ~60eps more.

 

[WastinTime]

If she just finished a granary, she'll probably build a settler and be stuck at size 7. Alexandria on the other hand will probably grow to size 4 and build a granary working two scientists. Is the AI smart enough to not grow until the Granary is done?

I thought we had 4 horse archers ready on turn 69 plus a spy at one point in this confusing turn set

 

[LowtherCastle]

If she just finished a granary, she'll probably build a settler and be stuck at size 7. Alexandria on the other hand will probably grow to size 4 and build a granary working two scientists. Is the AI smart enough to not grow until the Granary is done?

I thought we had 4 horse archers ready on turn 69 plus a spy at one point in this confusing turn set

Hatty is not building a settler and hasn't been since T55. She's got 6h in something at 2hpt. The 4 HAs on T69 was without a spy.

Mobilization typically ramps up slowly. That's what we're seeing here. 2 galleys + 4 HAs + 1 spy isn't a lot sooner than 3 galleys + 6 HAs + 2 spies.

 

[WastinTime]

so we don't dow on 69 ...whenever we're ready. Waiting only means we wait a little more for math. Otherwise there's no real urgent reason

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hatty is not building a settler and hasn't been since T55. She's got 6h in something at 2hpt. The 4 HAs on T69 was without a spy.

Mobilization typically ramps up slowly. That's what we're seeing here. 2 galleys + 4 HAs + 1 spy isn't a lot sooner than 3 galleys + 6 HAs + 2 spies.

The main factor is that we're mostly whipping units and we need to put a hammer in before each whip. So one or two more turns can equate to +1 galley + 1 HA + 1 spy. We're agonzingly close to getting T70. 1 worker turn or one build with hammer already in it in CEB or Paris, and so on. Just how it is.

xpost