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SGOTM 23 - Unallocated

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Bulbing Aesthetics does not seem like a good move at this point, unless there is something we could hope to get for it via trade. Academy...is Paris going to be our strongest research city over time? If so, then the academy would be a good move. Or we could save the GS for a later bulb -- we know we are going deep into the tech tree for Railroads, so some full value bulbs will be needed later.

    Currency...why not finish it? Would Construction 5 turns sooner make that big a difference?
     
  2. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    Construction would be delayed a bit more than 5 turns I think because we'd run out of money, as we barely have enough in the bank to finish Construction at 100% research right now. My main thinking is that construction 5 turns earlier means we can take Berlin 5 turns earlier.
     
  3. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    As it is right now, with the walls and the stack that large in Berlin, I don't see us taking it reasonably without catapults.
     
  4. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    But would we be doing nothing but building catapults until we are ready to attack? Or would some of that time be spent building other units (HAs, an axe or two as anti-spear stack defenders, a spear or two as anti-mounted stack defenders, whatever)? If other units will be built then we can build them now while finishing the techs, and thus Currency would not delay our overall effort.
     
  5. Packers5280

    Packers5280 Deity

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    What about Alex's land or Joao? We aren't limited to only Fred. We have options.
     
  6. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    Joao would be an easy target, since he has one city on flat land and no metal to my knowledge. Alex, don't know anything about. We'd have to make a road over hills to do a reasonable invasion, unless we can setup a naval path across.
     
  7. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    In the 8 turns until construction is finished, I think we can make at least 8 HA's if not more depending on chops + whip and how much we want to whip the capital. I think that's plenty enough to start the invasion, and we'd be limited by how fast we can get maybe 4 or 5 catapults.

    Right now, the Berlin has 2 archers, an axe, and a spear with barracks. On hill with walls, 50 culture.

    Otherwise if we're fine invading joao, then we can finish currency first, letting us sell our cheaper techs around.

    Edit: If we go to war with Joao, we can trade maths for IW right now. Otherwise, I'd wait for currency so we can get some spare change as we don't really need Iron right now.
     
  8. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    That is a fairly tough target. :( And he may add more defenders before we would actually attack. Another target might be more profitable, to expand the number of cities under our control and produce more units for additional attacks without suffering as many losses.

    On trades, once we declare we may get -diplo that shifts some AIs to being unwilling to trade. So that is something to consider for timing -- maybe trade for everything we can before declaring, in case we can not trade afterwards (at least for a while).
     
  9. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    ikotomi, have you finished your turn set? You mentioned a crash in the final turn. Have you resolved this via a SGOTM staff member? If you duplicated all moves from the last save and you uploaded that, we should be fine.

    Assuming ikotomi's turn set is complete:

    haphazard, you are up. I am on deck.
     
  10. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I think we should complete Currency before Construction. The second trade route and the ability to build wealth, make lump sum wealth and wealth per turn trades is a critical economic milestone.

    While completing Currency and Construction, I agree with ikotomi that we should build eight or more Horse Archers.

    When we complete Construction, we can whip Catapults in every city and possibly whip a second Catapult in the NE city and Paris.

    I agree with haphazard, that we should make as many trades as possible before we DoW Frederick.

    Joao II might be a tempting target, but he has only one city for us to capture and it is in the wrong direction for the Orient Express.
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    After we get Currency, we might also be able to sell a technology for lump sum wealth that will enable us to complete Construction faster.

    I believe we have passed the point where it is reasonable to attack with just Horse Archers. Construction is not that far away now. Attacking Berlin without 4-6 Catapults now may be too costly in dead HAs and risky in failing to capture Berlin.
     
  12. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Near the end of the game, we will want a huge force of workers on the turn we acquire Railroad. Ideally they will complete the entire Orient Express Railroad in the turn we complete Railroad. We can possibly use serfdom to increase the productivity of those Workers; A Golden Age would allow us to switch to serfdom without anarchy. If necessary, we can allow 2t to complete the Railroad, reducing the no. of required Workers by as much as 50%. In any case, we will need to build these workers in cities along the route a few turns before the Railroad technology is completed to deal with the increased unit maintenance/support for as short a period of time as necessary. We will likely want to micromanage the building of the workers to minimize all their costs and to ensure we have the required no. of workers in the necessary places to build the Orient Express in 1t or 2t as planned. The victory condition must of course be planned for the turn the Orient Express is completed.

    Ideally we and our one vassal will own the entire Orient Express. We probably do not want to risk losing a Defensive Pact with an AI leader that owns part of the land on which the Orient Express lies. In any case, a Conquest Victory would terminate all Defensive Pacts, so I believe those would be mutually exclusive anyway.
     
  13. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    Uploading save. Played 9 turns, but think this is a good time to think a bit more. As mentioned there's the currency vs construction, which it appears like we're leaning towards currency. There's also what to do with our GS.

    IW is obtainable this turn. Also, Mehmed has fist though I don't think he's targeting us.

    Turn 69, 1240 BC: You have made peace with Stalin!

    Turn 70, 1200 BC: You have trained a Chariot in Double Fish. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.

    Turn 72, 1120 BC: Orleans has been founded.

    Turn 73, 1080 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!
    Turn 73, 1080 BC: Mehmed II adopts Organized Religion!

    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Napoleon's Warrior 0 (3.90)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Combat Odds: 1.0%
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 14 (72/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 14 (58/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 14 (44/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 14 (30/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 has defeated Barbarian's Warrior!
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Napoleon's Warrior 0 (1.17)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Combat Odds: 97.2%
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: (Plot Defense: +75%)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 17 (13/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Napoleon's Warrior 0 is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
    Turn 74, 1040 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Napoleon's Warrior 0!

    Turn 75, 1000 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Double Fish. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.

    Turn 76, 975 BC: Copper City can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 31ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
    Turn 76, 975 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Orleans.
    Turn 76, 975 BC: Copper City will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
    Turn 76, 975 BC: Charles Augustin de Coulomb (Great Engineer) has been born in Thebes (Hatshepsut)!
    Turn 76, 975 BC: St. Patrick (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

    Turn 77, 950 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Paris can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 32ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 12 turns.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Copper City has grown to size 5.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Frederick will trade Iron Working, Masonry
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Joao II will trade Iron Working
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Hatshepsut will trade Masonry
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Alexander will trade Masonry
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Orleans.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Paris.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Paris will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Double Fish will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Orleans will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Ptolemy (Great Scientist) has been born in Paris (Napoleon)!
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Kublai Khan has founded Old Sarai in a distant land.
    Turn 77, 950 BC: Hatshepsut has completed The Temple of Artemis!

    Turn 78, 925 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: You are the worst enemy of Stalin.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Mehmed II.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Mehmed II is the worst enemy of Frederick.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II, Alexander.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Mao Zedong is the worst enemy of Darius I.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Frederick will trade Iron Working, Masonry
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Churchill will trade Masonry
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Joao II will trade Iron Working
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Hatshepsut will trade Iron Working, Masonry
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Alexander will trade Masonry
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Alexander will trade Clam
    Turn 78, 925 BC: You have discovered Masonry!
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: You are the worst enemy of Stalin.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Frederick is the worst enemy of Mehmed II.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Mehmed II is the worst enemy of Frederick.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Hatshepsut is the worst enemy of Joao II, Alexander.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Stalin is the worst enemy of Churchill.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Mao Zedong is the worst enemy of Darius I.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Alexander is the worst enemy of Hatshepsut.
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Frederick will trade Iron Working
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Joao II will trade Iron Working
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Hatshepsut will trade Iron Working
    Turn 78, 925 BC: Alexander will trade Clam
     
  14. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    OK, I will look over the save and try to post a plan tomorrow. Assuming my dental appointment does not find anything needing work :please:, I should have time.

    Frederick is Mehmed's worst enemy, so hopefully we are not his war target. But with our military set to rapidly grow, we should be safe enough unless a big stack shows up in the next few turns.

    I like Currency next to improve our finances, then Construction for catapults to help deal with walls and defenses. What are opinions on the best use of our GS? I will try to keep our cities growing up until we finish Construction so that we have plenty of pop to whip into catapults as soon as the tech completes. More details will have to wait until I can examine the save.
     
  15. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Unless we plan to run Bureaucracy a lot and cottage our capital, saving the GS for a future bulb might be better than constructing an Academy in Paris.
     
  16. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    OK, had a look at the save. Planning thoughts:

    - Tech: Currency (for more trade route income, cash in tech deals), then Construction (catapults). Will not finish Construction this turn set, assuming I play about 10 turns, but will get more than halfway on it. Run full slider while we have cash, binary research when treasury is empty.
    Trades...IW is available, but we would have to give a monopoly tech (HBR) or near-monopoly tech (Alpha, Math currently only known by Hatshepsut other than us) to get it. I don't think that is worth doing at this point, although we might have iron somewhere we could use it. Probably we can get it later, possibly right before starting our warring.
    - Builds: horse archers, lots of horse archers. Once Construction is finished, catapults, lots of catapults. :hammer: :lol: Cities will work their best tiles to keep growing so we can whip units, while producing hammers and commerce where we can.
    - Workers: chopping, although I will finish the cottage for Paris that is one turn from completion as the city will need another tile shortly. If possible I would also like to improve the stone for DoubleFish to have another strong tile; will see if that can be done without wasting too many turns moving.
    - GS will sit around in Paris, philosophizing about the universe. I agree with Sun Tzu Wu that a later bulb is likely better than an academy, although we could plan to cottage up Paris. The terrain is good for it.
    - EP remain on Joao, I guess. We could switch to Hatshepsut, but not sure it is worth doing as it would take a long time to generate useful amounts on her. She is far and away the tech leader, though there is still one more AI somewhere to be met.
    - Diplomacy: No specific changes, just responding to events. How do we want to handle demands? Looks like we have refused a couple stop trading requests already.
    - Military: Remote units continue exploration. Closer units keep monitoring our neighbors for evaluation of target choices. Gather HAs in Paris.

    Questions:

    -We could trade resources with Alexander (fish for clam). Not really needing the health, but could start accumulating future diplo bonus. He is not hated by anyone, so this should not cause any problems elsewhere. Worth doing?
    - Scientists is Paris, keep running them now that we just finished the GS? Or put them to work in the mines to boost our military build up? We are 30+ turns from another GS.

    Anything I am missing? Changes? Additions? Suggestions?
     
  17. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    I would say mines over specialists for now. If we're attacking Fred (which it seems like is the plan at this point) EP on Fred would help us revolt Berlin. We would probably need to spend a turn or two with the slider on 100% espionage, but I think it's worth it.

    We should get a spy built pretty quickly so we can get the discount from having him sit on the city 5 turns.
     
  18. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    If we are planning to build a catapult stack, do we care about inciting a revolt in Berlin? It could be useful to have a spy built for recon or other uses.

    Do we want any other units for stack balance/defense? Maybe one axe and one spear, to counter melee and mounted?
     
  19. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    If Fred actually is in straight up unit producing mode, we'll end up needing a lot of cats. The last thing that popped was a spear the turn I passed it over.

    Alternatively, we build a few Swords to scratch the top defenders.
     
  20. Packers5280

    Packers5280 Deity

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    Highly unlikely Freddy is spamming units. He doesn't have a high unit build probability. One of the lowest in game, in fact.

    Don't discount the research power of 2 scientists this early. I'd say keep them running until construction. They can save us a few turns of research.

    Plan looks good to me.
     

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